14 réponses à ce sujet

[EpicBoot2daFace]

It's no secret that the encounters in DA2 were terrible and smelled like wet dog. It's also no secret that wave-based combat is annoying and forces your back up against a wall... unless they spawn behind you. It's a terrible and quite lazy way to design encounters in a game. Anyone can do it, and that is why I expect better from BioWare.

In Origins, encounters were often treated like scenarios. You would have maybe a pesky archer and two warriors to contend with. But then you might also have to deal with a mage healer that's sole purpose in this encounter is to make the fight more difficult. It forces the player to think about how he or she is going to handle the situation before moving onto the next scenario of encounters.

In DA2, you enter an encounter much like you do in Origins. However the scenario is quite different, and so is how it plays out.

Instead of having enemies strategically set up for you to dispatch, the game simply throws them at you in a very unthinking manner. The response from the player is to just spam the hell out of the buttons or keys until they all die. After this however (or sometimes in the middle of it) more enemies spawn infront of or behind you. This ruins any sort of tactical strategy the player might have formulated before entering the battle, rendering the whole thing useless.

The game does an effective job at indirectly telling the player "just mash A to win!". This reduces the encounters down to a handicapped hack n' slash experience, even if you can enable auto-attack on consoles now. Every encounter in the game plays out the same way and is over very quickly. Lots of flash, but little to no substance. If it doesn't require the player to think, I believe the developer behind it didn't do much thinking themselves.

Modifié par EpicBoot2daFace, 29 juillet 2012 - 10:37 .

[wowpwnslol]

The problem with Origins combat is that it was possible to cheese encounters with AoE spells being cast before the combat even began. Casting storm of the century into rooms of enemies ignoring the line of sight was a big problem. In DA2 it's not possible to cast offensive spells, unless you're in combat. It was a cheap solution, but it worked.

I am not really a fan of enemies spawning in waves like in D2. I am also not a fan of health/mana regenerating after every battle.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

I never said it was perfect, but yeah. My main issue is with the waves of enemies. I also hate it in ME3.

[wsandista]

Wave combat is terrible, unless you can actually see the foes coming and prepare for it.

[deuce985]

I prefer seeing the enemies instead of wave combat. Being able to plan before battle makes it far more strategic, even if you can cheese your way through dropping AOE nukes on enemies. Shouldn't that be some of the gameplay? They have scenarios where the enemies didn't know you were coming. In DA:O, it almost always seemed like this. In DA2, they always ambush you in waves. Why not do something between that? Some encounters involve you getting the initiative and some end up with the enemy getting the surprise attack. I much prefer seeing ALL the enemies spawn at once. It's annoying killing 8 enemies, thinking I'm done and out of nowhere, 8 more enemies come. They just repeat that cycle over. It probably wouldn't be half as bad if EVERY encounter didn't end up with randomly spawning enemies...

I liked how easy it was to move around in DA2's combat. You could block chokepoints with your Warrior easier than DA:O. Problem with that is the random spawning...

It was hard to constantly block chokepoints off, even with predictable spawn points. I'd usually end up trying to funnel them in a narrow area.

Modifié par deuce985, 30 juillet 2012 - 10:55 .

[Realmzmaster]

Wave combat with humanoid enemies was bad. Wave combat with creatures (like Rage Demons) who can melt into the ground and reappear is sensible. The party should not see them coming. The creatures should also not be seen if a mage or demon possessed person is among the enemies and can summon them.

I do not wish to see all the enemies at one time for every encounter. It smacks of enemies who have no idea of strategy. There are several ways to approach combat for the enemy. Throw everything at once at the party (all enemies are visible). Have enemies that are hidden or using stealth (surprise attack). Use waves to wear down the party with enemies coming from sensible locations. It is best to have a mix of all three.

If you are in a mansion I expect it to be possible for reinforcements to be coming from every door. All spells even AOE spells should have line of sight unless there are consequences for throwing an AOE spell without knowing what is in the room. A rogue using stealth can scout the room and act as a spotter.

For example if an important NPC is in the room and the party's mage casts an AOE without line of sight the NPC has the possibility of getting killed and the quest ends in failure.

Yes I know gamers will simply reload but it will also require then to change their tactics or strategy.

[Brodoteau]

@Realmzmaster I think the word you are looking for there is context. It's not an either/or with waves.

For example: Random thugs in the streets of Kirkwall coming at you in waves. Bad. Not realistic and not in context.
Having no guards alerted and swarming you after you killed Rendon Howe in his own "estate". Bad. Not realistic and not in context.

Waves are not bad per se, but if you have to favour waves or no waves, I like the tactical, plan and attack of DAO over the random swarming of DA2.

Modifié par Brodoteau, 31 juillet 2012 - 01:44 .

[Realmzmaster]

Brodoteau wrote...

@Realmzmaster I think the word you are looking for there is context. It's not an either/or with waves.

For example: Random thugs in the streets of Kirkwall coming at you in waves. Bad. Not realistic and not in context.
Having no guards alerted and swarming you after you killed Rendon Howe in his own "estate". Bad. Not realistic and not in context.

Waves are not bad per se, but if you have to favour waves or no waves, I like the tactical, plan and attack of DAO over the random swarming of DA2.

I agree about context. Some of the encounters in Howe estate made very little sense especially the one with Ser Cauthrien. Given the fact that my warden and party methodically killed every guard in the estate, how did Ser Cauthrien know the party was there? (having arrived in disguise). Also the encounter only happens if you release Anora (which is basically the trigger for the encounter). The party is not allowed to go back the way the party came and leave the area after killing Howe. It would make sense to go back the way that has been cleared out and use the crowd that had gather in front of the estate as cover. Now you can headcanon that you missed a guard and that guard ran to alert others. Or a servant ran and alerted others, but nothing in the game suggests that.

I do not want the game to be total set piece battles where you can see all the enemies nor should every encounter have waves. That is simply not realistic. If the party is entering the enemy's area, the enemy should have the advantage in terms of concealment.  If the party is able to surprise the enemy then any advantage is nullfied. Any tactical or strategic plan must take into account reinforcements especially in the enemy's home base.

Ealier crpgs used random encounters to keep the party on its toes. With DAO and DA2 you know where the battles are going to occur. There are no random encounters. Even the so-called random encounters are scripted to occur after certain events or depending on the party composition.

[Nomen Mendax]

I'd have loved it if there had been an option for the Ser Cauthrien encounter not to happen. I actually liked it that you could win the encounter and weren't railroaded into being captured (*cough* Arrival) but it would have been even cooler if you could just avoid attracting any attention and get out without a fight.

But really what I'd like to see is encounters designed around what makes sense, rather than designed by formula (waves for DA2). Some encounters could have waves (if you are in a battle perhaps), and others could be carefully designed set pieces where you know where the enemies are (because you've scouted or been given information). I'd also like encounters to play out differently based on the player's actions.

And finally I'd like it if enemies would flee rather than always staying to fight to the last man (or woman ... or elf or dwarf or darkspawn). Thedas clearly has the most fanatical mercenaries and thieves in the history of humanity!

[Wulfram]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

And finally I'd like it if enemies would flee rather than always staying to fight to the last man (or woman ... or elf or dwarf or darkspawn). Thedas clearly has the most fanatical mercenaries and thieves in the history of humanity!

Problem is, CRPG players have been trained to ruthlessly hunt down the bad guys as they run crying for mercy in order to not miss out on loot and XP.

Which isn't very heroic.

[coles4971]

It would work if the maps were bigger, but if you're in the Denerim tavern fighting the Crimson Oars and one of the guys tries to run away, it'll look pretty stupid when he desperately tries to run through the door and you just chase after him and hack him down. For outdoors encounters though, definitely.

[Nomen Mendax]

Wulfram wrote...

Problem is, CRPG players have been trained to ruthlessly hunt down the bad guys as they run crying for mercy in order to not miss out on loot and XP.

Which isn't very heroic.

Agreed!

But if enemies could flee then that could be used as a reason for other enemies being alerted.  I have (very) vague recollections of some enemies fleeing in the Gold Box games (late '80s D&D CRPGs).  

[Realmzmaster]

Nomen Mendax wrote...

Wulfram wrote...

Problem is, CRPG players have been trained to ruthlessly hunt down the bad guys as they run crying for mercy in order to not miss out on loot and XP.

Which isn't very heroic.

Agreed!

But if enemies could flee then that could be used as a reason for other enemies being alerted.  I have (very) vague recollections of some enemies fleeing in the Gold Box games (late '80s D&D CRPGs).  

Enemies did flee in the Gold Box games and other crpgs. The party could also attempt to flee.

One of the party members could yell out that an enemy is getting away and will alert the rest of the mansion or bring reinforcements to the area. The one that got away would inform others and they could set up an ambush or attack the party.

I remember in one of the earlier crpgs ( Icewind Dale 2) that there was an encounter with an enemy in a cave system and paths leading to it. The party had to take out the warning drums and drummer or reinforcements would come to attack the party. There was a series of these drums and drummers along with enemies protecting both. 

[Realmzmaster]

coles4971 wrote...

It would work if the maps were bigger, but if you're in the Denerim tavern fighting the Crimson Oars and one of the guys tries to run away, it'll look pretty stupid when he desperately tries to run through the door and you just chase after him and hack him down. For outdoors encounters though, definitely.

Actually it could still work even in the tavern. Some of the early crpgs had a morale check. If an enemy was seeing his fellow comrades being mowed down that enemy would make a break for it while the party was engaged. If the demoralized enemy made it out the door that enemy was gone. In fact several enemies at the same time could make a break for it. The party would have to decide who to chase.  One or more are bound to get away.

[Nomen Mendax]

Realmzmaster wrote...

Nomen Mendax wrote...

But if enemies could flee then that could be used as a reason for other enemies being alerted.  I have (very) vague recollections of some enemies fleeing in the Gold Box games (late '80s D&D CRPGs).  

Enemies did flee in the Gold Box games and other crpgs. The party could also attempt to flee.

One of the party members could yell out that an enemy is getting away and will alert the rest of the mansion or bring reinforcements to the area. The one that got away would inform others and they could set up an ambush or attack the party.

I remember in one of the earlier crpgs ( Icewind Dale 2) that there was an encounter with an enemy in a cave system and paths leading to it. The party had to take out the warning drums and drummer or reinforcements would come to attack the party. There was a series of these drums and drummers along with enemies protecting both. 

Thanks, I'm glad that my recollection is correct.  It's a shame that these sorts of features aren't implemented in Bioware's more recent games.