36 réponses à ce sujet

[sth128]

I wonder, would you guys liked it better if when asked "who designed the Crucible", instead of "you would not know them, no time to explain", the Catalyst said "I did"?

Wouldn't that be a better twist?

Shepard would be like "What! Why?", and Catalyst would be like "The Crucible is a testament to the organic's ability to innovate. I merely designed the concept. Over the Cycles, the organics came together and devised a new solution: a creation capable of altering the variables. And now you are ready. You are the first organic ever to stand witness to the synthesis of both solutions, synthetic and organic".

[Taboo]

Yes.

But Mac Walters would rather throw logical fallacies at me and insult my intelligence.

[o Ventus]

Nope. Because then you would be asking yourself "Why would the Reapers construct a device that can destroy them?"

[sth128]

Uh the Crucible was built by the dominant species over the Cycles, not the Reaper. The Catalyst said that his purpose is to find a solution to the organic / synthetic conflict. If the best solution is to destroy one of them then SO BE IT.

After all, its current solution is "DESTROY ALL ORGANICS AND SAVE THEM IN FLASH DRIVES".

[o Ventus]

sth128 wrote...

Uh the Crucible was built by the dominant species over the Cycles, not the Reaper. The Catalyst said that his purpose is to find a solution to the organic / synthetic conflict. If the best solution is to destroy one of them then SO BE IT.

After all, its current solution is "DESTROY ALL ORGANICS AND SAVE THEM IN FLASH DRIVES".

And the Catalyst embodies "the collective intelligence of all Reapers".

Not that it matters, the principle is the same. Regardless if the Catalyst or the Reapers made the Crucible, it's still a suicide baton.

[David7204]

I hope we get more information on the Crucible in upcoming DLC...

[DPSSOC]

I honestly thought that was the case. As soon as the VI on Thessia mentioned that the Crucible had survived multiple cycles I was immediately thinking it was some kind of Reaper trick. Then when I got to the ending (no EC) it all made sense. The Crucible was a safety built into the Catalyst's Solution, when organics can finally get it to the point Shepard did then the Solution no longer works and needs to be adjusted. The reason it offers the option to Destroy is because of unanticipated adjustments made by organics over the various cycles.

Then I find out that the real explanation is, "Nope uh duh we just missed it." I could accept the Reapers not finding the Conduit, that wasn't a weapon built and deployed to destroy them, but how do you miss a weapon that people keep building over multiple cycles?

[o Ventus]

DPSSOC wrote...

"Nope uh duh we just missed it."  

Seems closer to "Well... We sort of just assumed you guys had given up on it."

In hindsight, that's kind of irresponsible.

[GreyLycanTrope]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Yes.

But Mac Walters would rather throw logical fallacies at me and insult my intelligence.

[Leonardo the Magnificent]

Why? The Crucible wouldn't do anything by itself. It'd be like giving your enemies, or whatever Organic civilization is to the Catalyst, the instructions on how to manufacture bullets while you held the only working gun.

[sth128]

o Ventus wrote...

And the Catalyst embodies "the collective intelligence of all Reapers".

Not that it matters, the principle is the same. Regardless if the Catalyst or the Reapers made the Crucible, it's still a suicide baton.

Well I am assuming (direct control?) that the Catalyst is being sincere. If you think its words are untrustworthy then obviously you would not believe the origin of the Crucible.

This is a "what if" scenario. Basically the Catalyst is what it says it is: an AI designed to find a solution to the synthetic / organic conflict. It's rather arrogant to suggest that the greatest intelligence in the galaxy found only one solution to a problem that clearly is not so simple. Could it not have devised a solution that self-perpetuates and evolves alongside the organics that attempt to materialize it?

Think of "A Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy" (yes I know blasphemy for mentioning next to ME3), the mice created a super computer (ie. Catalyst) to find the "answer" (aka. the solution). The answer turns out to be so exceedingly simple that it is stupid (ie. destroy all life to prevent all life from being destroyed). So the super computer (ie. Catalyst again) created a planet to evolve into a real answer (ie. Crucible)...

Another way to think about it is this: the Catalyst knows there may be more than one solution so it designed the Crucible concept and pass it on to the organics. Meanwhile its first solution is the Reapers. So both "solutions" are being conducted in parallel. One is being used by the Synthetics (ie. Reapers), the other being used by the organics (ie. the ever evolving Crucible).

Then at the end the Crucible incorporates the very thing that designed it and everything comes full circle and the solution is a solution designed to find the solution that created two solutions.

SOLUTIONCEPTION! BWWAAAAAAANNNN~~~!!!

[teh DRUMPf!!]

 No. All the people who freak out about the Catalyst maybe trying to trick them would have that fear compounded by the fact that the Crucible was his design.

But at this time people will eat up anything one puts forward about the ending and if it's at all different they'll say "omg that's so much better than what we got!" So you can fully expect that these same people will paradoxically tell you that it would somehow make things better.

[sth128]

^ Ok I agree. But what we got about the origins of the Crucible is "You would not know them, and there's little time to explain".

That to me sounds even more "tricky" than just a plain explanation. Willful omission of facts is just as misguiding as flat out lying. If the Catalyst isn't going to explain the Crucible, then either NOT include that particular line of questioning or just have the Catalyst say "I don't know, clearly the organics are more resourceful than we thought".

I mean, the Catalyst said they tried Synthesis before. And the Crucible enables a successful Synthesis. Clearly the Crucible (or at least one of its possible functions) shares certain similarities with solutions the Catalyst tried before.

Why would the Organics come up with a way to turn everything into the Borg? All green and half machine...

Modifié par sth128, 30 juillet 2012 - 02:55 .

[The Heretic of Time]

If would have been better if the Catalyst was actually part of the Crucible and not part of the Reapers. That way everything would have made so much more sense.

The Catalyst would then guide Shepard and explain the 3 options ahead of him, people would actually trust him because hey, he's part of the Crucible, the weapon we created! Perhaps the Catalyst can interact with the Reapers, which allows him to figure them out and explain Shepard their origin and intent, though I wouldn't mind if the origin and intent of the Reapers was left ambiguous.

Modifié par Heretic_Hanar, 30 juillet 2012 - 02:59 .

[DPSSOC]

Leonardo the Magnificent wrote...

Why? The Crucible wouldn't do anything by itself. It'd be like giving your enemies, or whatever Organic civilization is to the Catalyst, the instructions on how to manufacture bullets while you held the only working gun.

Except for 50,000 years they don't hold that gun, they let the Organics play with it.  If just one civilization finds the Crucible plans before the Reapers show up they are screwed.

[D24O]

I think it would've been better if we find out at the end, that WE were actually the reapers.

[sth128]

D24O wrote...

I think it would've been better if we find out at the end, that WE were actually the reapers.

What, you mean like if everything we have ever experienced was just a nightmare the human Reaper was having? And that Shepard is merely one of the many minds ascended into Reaper form?

M. NIGHT TWIST OMG!!!

Then the camera zooms out and reveal we are just a Reaper waking up in Dark Space ready for the next Cycle.

[Shaleist]

o Ventus wrote...

Nope. Because then you would be asking yourself "Why would the Reapers construct a device that can destroy them?"

"Why would the Catalyst construct a device that could destroy the Reapers?"

Really... if spacekidghostmachineannoyance had started the catalyst in motion, it would almost turn him into a 3rd party overseeing both the synthetic reapers and the organics of the galaxy. Like a gardener...  Maybe his plan was to keep reapin' til the time was right.  Just change the story a bit... have spacekidghostmachineannoyance admit that the Geth/Quarian uniting *ONLY if that happens in game* convinced him that organics and synthetics can be simpatico... and he helps you turn off his organics-be-gone machines.   That actually would have made some sense to me.


In other words... Spacebrat made the catalyst from an old contingency plan of his. So if anyone did ever solve his supposed organic/synthetic problem he'd have an off switch for the Reapers.  Just have it explained that spacebrat never saw a previous cycle that resolved the issue, so he never ALLOWED prior organic cycles to use his reaper-off switch.  But for whatever reason, Shepard accomplished the task, and now he's more than willing to change his ways.  It's NOT that complicated actually.

If you killed the Geth or quarians.. you'd have to go with the old 'RGB or Refuse' endings that we have today and he doesn't assist.

Modifié par Shaleist, 30 juillet 2012 - 03:10 .

[D24O]

sth128 wrote...

What, you mean like if everything we have ever experienced was just a nightmare the human Reaper was having? And that Shepard is merely one of the many minds ascended into Reaper form?

M. NIGHT TWIST OMG!!!

Then the camera zooms out and reveal we are just a Reaper waking up in Dark Space ready for the next Cycle.

Boom, we have ourselves an ending. 

[MegaSovereign]

D24O wrote...

I think it would've been better if we find out at the end, that WE were actually the reapers.

The Reapers are only an illusion. We're killing ourselves!

[sth128]

D24O wrote...

sth128 wrote...

What, you mean like if everything we have ever experienced was just a nightmare the human Reaper was having? And that Shepard is merely one of the many minds ascended into Reaper form?

M. NIGHT TWIST OMG!!!

Then the camera zooms out and reveal we are just a Reaper waking up in Dark Space ready for the next Cycle.

Boom, we have ourselves an ending. 

No. That is only the beginning. We must go twistier!

We wake up as a GOOD Reaper because in the nightmare Shepard's mind built a meta-Crucible and can now ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL of the Reaper. And that Reaper is the Leviathan of Dis! And now we must come to the aid of the next Cycle!

[D24O]

sth128 wrote...

No. That is only the beginning. We must go twistier!

We wake up as a GOOD Reaper because in the nightmare Shepard's mind built a meta-Crucible and can now ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL of the Reaper. And that Reaper is the Leviathan of Dis! And now we must come to the aid of the next Cycle!

Which will play out over the course of 3 or 4 downlodable installments!

[Doctoglethorpe]

My reaction:

Modifié par Doctor Moustache, 30 juillet 2012 - 03:17 .

[DPSSOC]

D24O wrote...

sth128 wrote...

No. That is only the beginning. We must go twistier!

We wake up as a GOOD Reaper because in the nightmare Shepard's mind built a meta-Crucible and can now ASSUME DIRECT CONTROL of the Reaper. And that Reaper is the Leviathan of Dis! And now we must come to the aid of the next Cycle!

Which will play out over the course of 3 or 4 downlodable installments!

Am I the only one who would totally pay for a mode where you get to play as a Reaper?  Just a little mode where you take control of a Destroyer or something and have to fight off waves of enemies.  Then the final boss is Kalros.