467 réponses à ce sujet

[Skirata129]

Simply put, from Shepard's point of view, he is being confronted with a VI that claims to have created the Reapers, and who presents a very flawed argument before presenting 3 choices to him, none of which line up with his morals or original goals. These choices are not even presented in a professional manner, such as inputting them in a terminal. Instead, for all shepard knows, the VI who admits to being a Reaper ally just told him to either shoot a fuel tank at close range, grab a live power line, or step into a giant beam of energy that will disintegrate him.


Seriously, there's no logical reason to pick anything EXCEPT refuse.

[Ticonderoga117]

Pretty much, except GlowBoy is an AI.

[RenegonSQ]

You're right, refusal is the best ending....





FOR YOU! Stop forcing your endings on people, none of them are "the best". Jesus Christ

[DirtyPhoenix]

RenegonSQ wrote...

You're right, refusal is the best ending....





FOR YOU! Stop forcing your endings on people, none of them are "the best". Jesus Christ

For once I agree with a destroyer.

Modifié par pirate1802, 30 juillet 2012 - 05:07 .

[MegaSovereign]

Without meta-gaming, refusal is still stupid.

Sure, there may be a chance that the Catalyst is trying to deceive you. But from the start you had to take your chances with the Crucible. If you choose not to use it then the galaxy will get harvested anyway.

In Shepard's shoes I would have used the Crucible. I probably wouldn't have chosen control/synthesis without meta-gaming, but I would have still attempted to destroy the Reapers.

Modifié par MegaSovereign, 30 juillet 2012 - 05:09 .

[Ticonderoga117]

MegaSovereign wrote...

Without meta-gaming, refusal is still stupid.

Sure, there may be a chance that the Catalyst is trying to deceive you. But from the start you had to take your chances with the Crucible. If you choose not to use it then the galaxy will get harvested anyway.

In Shepard's shoes I would have used the Crucible. I probably wouldn't have chosen control/synthesis without meta-gaming, but I would have still attempted to destroy the Reapers.

The Galaxy should be harvested anyway, they didn't test squat building the Crucible. Hell, maybe the collective lack of common sense would affect the Reapers next cycle.

[Conniving_Eagle]

The Ending in a Nutshell

In the last ten minutes of the game, we meet the real antagonist, who dismisses the previous antagonist (the Reapers), the one that the other 99.84% if the trilogy was about fighting. Now, instead of fighting and defeating this new contrived antagonist, our protaganist is forced to make a morally ambiguous choice with little explanation and arbitrary consequences, that will fix the antagonist's problem for him (synthetics vs. organics).

There is no best choice. They are all terrible like the ending.

[Sajuro]

So instead of taking a chance you let everyone die, brilliant-wait...

[Taboo]

My Shepard picks Destroy because he believes it offers the best future for ALL life. No one will have to suffer under the Reapers any longer. He alone takes responsibility for his actions, and the destruction of EDI and the Geth are his weights to carry for the rest of his life.

[iamweaver]

Skirata129 wrote...

Simply put, from Shepard's point of view, he is being confronted with a VI that claims to have created the Reapers, and who presents a very flawed argument before presenting 3 choices to him, none of which line up with his morals or original goals. These choices are not even presented in a professional manner, such as inputting them in a terminal. Instead, for all shepard knows, the VI who admits to being a Reaper ally just told him to either shoot a fuel tank at close range, grab a live power line, or step into a giant beam of energy that will disintegrate him.

Well, the AI also coild have just left Shep to bleed out on the floor. But it didn't. At least, that was my thought as I listened in disbelief on my playthrough. So the problem, while not quite as clear-cut as you suggest, is certainly muddled.

Why, oh why didn't Bioware at least have the choices be stated by a prothean VI (Vendetta, perhaps) that could have been the interface between the Crucible and the CItadel?  Some neutral or trusted agent?

[RenegonSQ]

pirate1802 wrote...

RenegonSQ wrote...

You're right, refusal is the best ending....





FOR YOU! Stop forcing your endings on people, none of them are "the best". Jesus Christ

For once I agree with a destroyer.

Indeed

[Bill Casey]

Taboo-XX wrote...

My Shepard picks Destroy because he believes it offers the best future for ALL life. No one will have to suffer under the Reapers any longer. He alone takes responsibility for his actions, and the destruction of EDI and the Geth are his weights to carry for the rest of his life.

[Shepard tries to hang himself in the hospital]
[Joker walks in, breaks several bones saving him]

Joker: For the last time... It was the Reapers. You know, big shooty death laser monsters. Noone's blaming you. You did what you had to. You don't see me killing myself. I lost my father, my sister, my girlfriend, Anderson... god dammit... I'm not going to lose you too. So you don't get to die, do you hear me?

Shepard: ...

Joker: Besides. Think of all of the obscure things you can fetch for people once you get out of here.

[AlanC9]

Skirata129 wrote...

Simply put, from Shepard's point of view, he is being confronted with a VI that claims to have created the Reapers, and who presents a very flawed argument before presenting 3 choices to him, none of which line up with his morals or original goals. These choices are not even presented in a professional manner, such as inputting them in a terminal. Instead, for all shepard knows, the VI who admits to being a Reaper ally just told him to either shoot a fuel tank at close range, grab a live power line, or step into a giant beam of energy that will disintegrate him.

So let's see... Shepard is supposed to refuse because the options might be traps. Or is it because the options don't line up with his morals and original goals? If it's a trap, the Catalyst sure isn't very good at baiting it.

But let's say Shepard thinks it's probably a trap. What of it? If it is a trap, all that means is that the galaxy is doomed anyway, and whatever Shepard does just doesn't matter.

[jetfire118]

Ahhh so sacrificing an entire cycle because your to stubborn to shoot a damn tube which magical kills the reapers. INSTEAD you shoot the ghost thing let the reappers kill you and all your friends. Good damn job. Refuse is obviously the best choice. Yea...ill stick to destroy.

[RadicalDisconnect]

AlanC9, you got me thinking. In retrospect, considering that the Catalyst can turn off the Crucible at will, why does he even give those choices to Shepard? It's in the Catalyst's power to continue the cycle, yet he chose to give the decision, and the fate of the reapers, to Shepard for some reason. In fact, in the EC, the Catalyst isn't even too biased against destroy. On another note, suppose you destroyed the Collector Base and had low EMS. Your only option is to destroy, and the Catalyst said that you have no choice. Yet he is perfectly able to turn off the Crucible when he sees that Shepard won't use it. I find this rather odd...

Modifié par RadicalDisconnect, 30 juillet 2012 - 06:06 .

[AresKeith]

either way its still magic, until Mac stops looking at Fantasy and comes back to Science Fiction

[iamweaver]

Good point, AlanC9. I mean, even if Starchild is a lying bast*&#, what could happen that's worse then everyone dying as they are liquified and sucked into the antagonists for the cycles to come? I mean, really. Not much of a gamble there. But at least you have your pride.

[SSPBOURNE]

I still prefer control. It is the means to survival.

[AlanC9]

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

AlanC9, you got me thinking. In retrospect, considering that the Catalyst can turn off the Crucible at will, why does he even give those choices to Shepard?

That isn't established by anything in-game. It looks to me more like the Crucible always did require an operator on the Citadel side. Though TIM was the only guy with the manual for the thing, and he didn't bring a copy for Shepard to loot from his corpse.

[Father_Jerusalem]

No.

Without metagaming, Refusal is still mindnumbingly stupid.

At best - AT BEST (and this is so very much beyond any reasonable best that actually exists, and assumes you have in the neighborhood of a billion war assets, mind) - Shepard is willfully gambling the lives of EVERY MEMBER OF EVERY ADVANCED SPECIES IN THE GALAXY on a 50% chance. Do nothing and he KNOWS the galaxy is doomed.

Yes, the choices may be traps... but how, in any sane way, does that make things worse off than they are at the moment that the Catalyst is presented to Shepard?

[ShepnTali]

For those that feel they got the finger from Bioware, it's a spiteful turnabout in killing everybody off. Screw em. Let them all suffer reaper madness!

[iamweaver]

AlanC9 wrote...

RadicalDisconnect wrote...

AlanC9, you got me thinking. In retrospect, considering that the Catalyst can turn off the Crucible at will, why does he even give those choices to Shepard?

That isn't established by anything in-game. It looks to me more like the Crucible always did require an operator on the Citadel side. Though TIM was the only guy with the manual for the thing, and he didn't bring a copy for Shepard to loot from his corpse.

The only explanation I have ever been able to come up with, using hindsight and completely pretending that the EC doesn't show that the Starkid was honest, is that the Crucible required a willing organic to bypass lockouts and kick it off, and the Starchild planned on using Space Magic to instantly indoctrinate the entire galaxy to stop the destruction of Reapers in battle.   Meaning that actually, the Catalyst wasn't Starchild, but "it was you all along!"  (No, this isnt Kansas any more).

[DocGriffin]

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

No.

Without metagaming, Refusal is still mindnumbingly stupid.

At best - AT BEST (and this is so very much beyond any reasonable best that actually exists, and assumes you have in the neighborhood of a billion war assets, mind) - Shepard is willfully gambling the lives of EVERY MEMBER OF EVERY ADVANCED SPECIES IN THE GALAXY on a 50% chance. Do nothing and he KNOWS the galaxy is doomed.

Yes, the choices may be traps... but how, in any sane way, does that make things worse off than they are at the moment that the Catalyst is presented to Shepard?

Yeah this is what always surprised me. And the metaphor I always present is this:


You're on a game show, where the game is to choose one of three doors with the possibility of earning one million dollars. You need the money to pay for an emergency surgery for your mother. The game show host, who has a propensity for lying and, you deem, is untrustworthy, tells you that there is 1 million dollars behind all three doors. You tell the game show host you don't trust him, and that you'd rather try and make the money on your own. Guess what? You don't have the time, and your mother dies without the surgery. And guess what again? All 3 doors had 1 million dollars.

You had nothing to lose by giving the host the benefit of the doubt and simply choosing a door, whereas leaving the game show was the only choice with a guarantee of not earning the money. Why would that ever be the logical choice?

Modifié par DocGriffin, 30 juillet 2012 - 06:22 .

[Pitznik]

When you face the destruction of yourself and entire galaxy with a 100% chance, even 0,00001% chance of changing that is a better choice. Especially that it was none other than Shepard himself who advocated taking that chance from the beginning and who invested considerable effort and talked others into doing the same. You were given the authority to win and do what you can to achieve it. You weren't given the authority to sacrifice everything in the name of your principles.

[iamweaver]

DocGriffin wrote...

Father_Jerusalem wrote...

No.

Without metagaming, Refusal is still mindnumbingly stupid.

At best - AT BEST (and this is so very much beyond any reasonable best that actually exists, and assumes you have in the neighborhood of a billion war assets, mind) - Shepard is willfully gambling the lives of EVERY MEMBER OF EVERY ADVANCED SPECIES IN THE GALAXY on a 50% chance. Do nothing and he KNOWS the galaxy is doomed.

Yes, the choices may be traps... but how, in any sane way, does that make things worse off than they are at the moment that the Catalyst is presented to Shepard?

Yeah this is what always surprised me. And the metaphor I always present is this:


You're on a game show, where the game is to choose one of three doors with the possibility of earning one million dollars. You need the money to pay for an emergency surgery for your mother. The game show host, who has a propensity for lying and, you deem, is untrustworthy, tells you that there is 1 million dollars behind all three doors. You tell the game show host you don't trust him, and that you'd rather try and make the money on your own. Guess what? You don't have the time, and your mother dies without the surgery. And guess what again? All 3 doors had 1 million dollars.

You had nothing to lose by giving the host the benefit of the doubt and simply choosing a door, whereas leaving the game show was the only choice with a guarantee of not earning the money. Why would that ever be the logical choice?

But you prove you're FREE by not taking one of three choices thrust upon you.  Even though you knew, when you signed up to be on a random game show, that it was likely that you would have to make some kind of a decision or do something on some show, though you didn't know which one or exactly what that decision woudl be.  And you promised your mother that you would do whatever it took to pay for the surgery.

Modifié par iamweaver, 30 juillet 2012 - 06:27 .