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[teh DRUMPf!!]

Okay wow. I'm sorry, but posts like these are just plain awful.

Let's go through this hatchet-job.

Skirata129 wrote...

Simply put, from Shepard's point of view, he is being confronted with a VI that claims to have created the Reapers,

The suggestion being made here is an ad-hominem, we're off to a bad start already.

and who presents a very flawed argument

There is virtually nothing it could say to us to justify the genocide it has commited. His argument is going to be flawed no matter what.

before presenting 3 choices to him, none of which line up with his morals

You mean your morals?

or original goals.

You don't have to agree with his reasoning for any of those 3 choices to line up with your original goals. As is, they already do, for MANY of us.

These choices are not even presented in a professional manner, such as inputting them in a terminal. Instead, for all shepard knows, the VI who admits to being a Reaper ally just told him to either shoot a fuel tank at close range, grab a live power line, or step into a giant beam of energy that will disintegrate him.

Two thread responses from me.

Why I trusted the Catalyst.
You don't trust him? Doesn't matter. Without him, you'd make the same decision!

Seriously, there's no logical reason to pick anything EXCEPT refuse.

Well apparently not, seeing as how this notion was achieved through a complete and utter abortion of all logic.


Bad thread.

Modifié par HYR 2.0, 30 juillet 2012 - 05:39 .

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

Batnat wrote...

I can see your point, but let´s consider this for a moment:

The ReaperAI lies (I know, totally impossible, right?!).
EC reveals:
Control ends with Shepard desintegrating and Reapers harvesting the galaxy.
Synthesis ends with mass-indoctrination and Reapers harvesting the galaxy.
Destroy ends with destruction of all non-reaper tech and Reapers harvesting the galaxy.
Refusal: War continues, outcome depends on your choices, Paragon/Renegade, squad and EMS...it could even still include the crucible in some way.

Without metagaming...does this possible outcome seem really SO outlandish to you?
I think it could just as easily have happend this way arround.
I´m not the kind of person who trusts their enemy (who annihilated how many civilizations exactly?) just because they tell me they only do what they think is best...without providing any kind of proof nor sound logical reasons!
How many "bad guys" justify their deeds with the sole purpose of wanting to be bad?
Usually people have reasons they themselves see as good intentions or the right or logical things to do, no matter how warped those might really happen to be.

Just as often it is said in ME3 that we can´t defeat the reapers with "convential" means it is also acknowledged no one knows what the weapon will do. For all we know it could be a reaper device like all the other nice things they left lying around for us to find. I´m not saying that it is, just pointing out the possibility.
The ReaperAI doesn´t help either...some people see its reasons as incentive to go through with using the crucible others see it as a kind of proof that they bet on the wrong horse the whole time and don´t risk using it.

Judging people´s choices based on the knowledge of the outcome, which we all have by now, will get no one anywhere. No matter what one chooses, they´re not idiots or morons or murderers. It just depends how one happens to interpret what we´ve been given.
Either the whole concept is flawed or this is exactly the kind of outcome the artist...ahm...architect of the story wanted to provoke.

That's exactly it, the kid has lied.  Indoctrination creates lies.  The kid is the only one that knows all about what this whole mess will do.  He contradicts himself. 

I look back at the only non-metagaming I could do.  That's when I first played the endings.  I couldn't believe this was what I'd been working towards.  And then I couldn't believe this is what I was expected to do.  And back then there was a lot less crap being said.  He was "crazy" but not crazy with all those words and the slides of happiness that came after the crazy.  I instantly saw him as my enemy.  He was a wolf in sheep's clothing.  A totally insane one, but one nonetheless.

none of that works cause you give the catalyst purely too much credit. It's just an AI, not a super being from outer space. It's builders on the other hand had billions of years to learn deceit and are so called super beings from outer space.They programmed the catalyst, and from him the reapers, and they've played you, kept you confused, disoriented, filled with fear and loathing. The funny part is, that the catalyst creators are Sheps best allies against the reaper threat, even though long dead.

Totally insane? lol now THAT is funny.

[Batnat]

AlanC9 wrote...

Batnat wrote...

The ReaperAI lies (I know, totally impossible, right?!).
EC reveals:
Control ends with Shepard desintegrating and Reapers harvesting the galaxy.
Synthesis ends with mass-indoctrination and Reapers harvesting the galaxy.
Destroy ends with destruction of all non-reaper tech and Reapers harvesting the galaxy.
Refusal: War continues, ends with Reapers harvesting the galaxy

Fixed.

Sure...why not. I´d still prefer Refuse in this case.
Though I doubt I would be as accepting of this overall scenario as I am of the EC.

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...

It is because the writers only listened to the idea of refuse as they saw it.  Every post on refuse that I ever saw or took part in discussing was for Shepard to regain a backbone and tell the kid to F off.  And then the real fight to Take Earth Back could begin which could end in many variations of loss or win or sacrifice.  You know, a variety like what we were promised and some actual fight to take Earth back and not a conversation with the reaper king.

We must have been reading different threads. I saw plenty of posts saying that refusing would be great for RP, but it would be stupid for it to lead to victory. 

[Wayning_Star]

nobody knows the trouble I'v seen, nobody knows but Javik...

[wright1978]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

It is because the writers only listened to the idea of refuse as they saw it.  Every post on refuse that I ever saw or took part in discussing was for Shepard to regain a backbone and tell the kid to F off.  And then the real fight to Take Earth Back could begin which could end in many variations of loss or win or sacrifice.  You know, a variety like what we were promised and some actual fight to take Earth back and not a conversation with the reaper king.

We must have been reading different threads. I saw plenty of posts saying that refusing would be great for RP, but it would be stupid for it to lead to victory. 

Yep I have no problem with refuse. The notion that you can choose to go down swinging really adds back in a sense of player agency.

[3DandBeyond]

pirate1802 wrote...


Ok I think I see your point. But people change, their viewpoint change, no? Like I may say I won't sacrifice anyone's life to save myself but in desperate times I may do that. All the endings are morally ambiguous. But still, somehow all my Shepards come to find something in their chosen endings to resemble their ideology.
Like my renegade Shepard agrees with the ruthless calculus of war so she blew up the tube. I try to maintain this in every playthrough, that my Shepard picks the ending that is the most fitting to his/her personality and goal, but a slight bit of meta-gaming creeps in. Its inevitable

Yes it is or well it may be if you believe in the inevitable .

Many of my problems exist with the choices as described because you don't get to ask the right questions.  I may need ot know how Shepard er Shepard seed gets spread out and used by the beam, but I'd want to know just how it really changes people and what that means for them as far as being individuals and so on.  I wanted to know more what it does than how it's done, but that was needed as well.

Control raises questions too.  Can't I just smash the reapers into the sun?  Or why can't I tell people I control the reapers because taking control isn't going to stop the fighting.  So the reapers stop shooting and start fixing a relay.  Well, I guess only people that would think they should make the crucible without knowing what it does would not question this.

For destroy, there are a lot of questions as well.  I'd think a renegade would hear, "even you are partly synthetic" and tell the kid to explain what that means.  But if you listen to his description of destroy it makes no sense.

He says it won't discriminate.
It targets all synthetics (he doesn't say synthetic life) and "even you are partly synthetic".  If it targets all synthetics and Shepard is partly synthetic, Shepard would want to understand this.

"There will be losses but no more than you have already lost."  What does that mean?

What I'm saying is there are so many holes left here that I personally can't make any rational choice from one of these.

And as I am metagaming, I don't really like refuse for what it means.

[DirtyPhoenix]

Wayning_Star wrote...

nobody knows the trouble I'v seen, nobody knows but Javik...

The poor thing...

[Ezlo86]

I can understand the appeal of the Refuse ending, since it's really the only one which you basically tell him to screw himself and that you'll take your chances against the Reapers... if it mattered.

But it doesn't. You DIE if you do that. You and trillions of other poor bastards. So no, thanks. That kid is nothing but billions of years old worth of malfunctioning AI with some very destructive minions, but that doesn't change the fact that he can squat us like a bug if he wants to.

That's why I will always pick Destroy. I don't want to use them, I want them dead so nature can go back to it's normal self.

[Ezlo86]

I would still pick Destroy even if the only way to explode that tube was to crash the Normandy on it with all my team inside kamikaze style, no joke.

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...

I look back at the only non-metagaming I could do.  That's when I first played the endings.  I couldn't believe this was what I'd been working towards.  And then I couldn't believe this is what I was expected to do.  And back then there was a lot less crap being said.  He was "crazy" but not crazy with all those words and the slides of happiness that came after the crazy.  I instantly saw him as my enemy.  He was a wolf in sheep's clothing.  A totally insane one, but one nonetheless.

Even without the EC slides, of course, it was obvious that he kid had been telling the truth, and he wasn't your enemy anymore.

It's regrettable that an explicit (rather than implicit) Refuse wasn't in from the beginning. You've got the makings of a nice tragic ending there.

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

It is because the writers only listened to the idea of refuse as they saw it.  Every post on refuse that I ever saw or took part in discussing was for Shepard to regain a backbone and tell the kid to F off.  And then the real fight to Take Earth Back could begin which could end in many variations of loss or win or sacrifice.  You know, a variety like what we were promised and some actual fight to take Earth back and not a conversation with the reaper king.

We must have been reading different threads. I saw plenty of posts saying that refusing would be great for RP, but it would be stupid for it to lead to victory. 

Perhaps so but the one I most often posted in was all about refusing and people said, even if it lead to a loss, but that they did want a possible victory.  That was said repeatedly and so often it would be impossible to miss it.  In the "we are listening" thread.

I see similar things though said here now.  The only valid ending is a tragic must die one and I consider this selfish.  I bought a game in a series that featured winning as an outcome against all odds and by making decisions.  I was told that the outcome of this one would be based on all that and what I did in this game.  So I completed as much as I could. I tried really hard even though the fetch quests were horrid.  And I still didn't get any ending they promised.  I didn't get to take Earth back.  I didn't get a bittersweet or tragic ending or a victory won by determination.  I got a conversation with glow boy.  A conversation.  Exactly how I thought the game would end. 

[DirtyPhoenix]

3DandBeyond wrote...
Yes it is or well it may be if you believe in the inevitable .

Many of my problems exist with the choices as described because you don't get to ask the right questions.  I may need ot know how Shepard er Shepard seed gets spread out and used by the beam, but I'd want to know just how it really changes people and what that means for them as far as being individuals and so on.  I wanted to know more what it does than how it's done, but that was needed as well.

Control raises questions too.  Can't I just smash the reapers into the sun?  Or why can't I tell people I control the reapers because taking control isn't going to stop the fighting.  So the reapers stop shooting and start fixing a relay.  Well, I guess only people that would think they should make the crucible without knowing what it does would not question this.

For destroy, there are a lot of questions as well.  I'd think a renegade would hear, "even you are partly synthetic" and tell the kid to explain what that means.  But if you listen to his description of destroy it makes no sense.

He says it won't discriminate.
It targets all synthetics (he doesn't say synthetic life) and "even you are partly synthetic".  If it targets all synthetics and Shepard is partly synthetic, Shepard would want to understand this.

"There will be losses but no more than you have already lost."  What does that mean?

What I'm saying is there are so many holes left here that I personally can't make any rational choice from one of these.

And as I am metagaming, I don't really like refuse for what it means.

Well I can't seperate ME from my Shepard beyond a certain point can I?

And yes I agree, the endings would have been much, much better had the options been explained better, foreshadowed better and presented by a neutral party. I want to find out who thought presenting the all-important choices through your enemy-boss was a good idea!

Modifié par pirate1802, 30 juillet 2012 - 05:58 .

[Wayning_Star]

pirate1802 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

nobody knows the trouble I'v seen, nobody knows but Javik...

The poor thing...

yeah, poor old Javik, lost his whole super society on a whim of some players who knew better, but too proud to admit their error, Like the Illusive man, only different. Now they're jumping off roofs to spite inhuman computer programs...That ol, going down swinging harvest moon thing... Old John would be proud!!

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

I look back at the only non-metagaming I could do.  That's when I first played the endings.  I couldn't believe this was what I'd been working towards.  And then I couldn't believe this is what I was expected to do.  And back then there was a lot less crap being said.  He was "crazy" but not crazy with all those words and the slides of happiness that came after the crazy.  I instantly saw him as my enemy.  He was a wolf in sheep's clothing.  A totally insane one, but one nonetheless.

Even without the EC slides, of course, it was obvious that he kid had been telling the truth, and he wasn't your enemy anymore.

It's regrettable that an explicit (rather than implicit) Refuse wasn't in from the beginning. You've got the makings of a nice tragic ending there.

How was that obvious.  If it was so obvious everyone would universally agree on it.  He is the enemy as Shepard is speaking to him.  And he has lied.  Indoctrination is a form of lying. 

[wright1978]

AlanC9 wrote...


Even without the EC slides, of course, it was obvious that he kid had been telling the truth, and he wasn't your enemy anymore.

It's regrettable that an explicit (rather than implicit) Refuse wasn't in from the beginning. You've got the makings of a nice tragic ending there.

Course catalyst is your enemy. It's just an enemy that has been rendered helpless and now the only weapon it has left is its forked tongue.

Modifié par wright1978, 30 juillet 2012 - 06:01 .

[Wayning_Star]

3DandBeyond wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

I look back at the only non-metagaming I could do.  That's when I first played the endings.  I couldn't believe this was what I'd been working towards.  And then I couldn't believe this is what I was expected to do.  And back then there was a lot less crap being said.  He was "crazy" but not crazy with all those words and the slides of happiness that came after the crazy.  I instantly saw him as my enemy.  He was a wolf in sheep's clothing.  A totally insane one, but one nonetheless.

Even without the EC slides, of course, it was obvious that he kid had been telling the truth, and he wasn't your enemy anymore.

It's regrettable that an explicit (rather than implicit) Refuse wasn't in from the beginning. You've got the makings of a nice tragic ending there.

How was that obvious.  If it was so obvious everyone would universally agree on it.  He is the enemy as Shepard is speaking to him.  And he has lied.  Indoctrination is a form of lying. 

enemy? lol prove the intent? Cannot do that cause it just isn't IN the game at all.

[incinerator950]

pirate1802 wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

nobody knows the trouble I'v seen, nobody knows but Javik...

The poor thing...

Isn't that a song?

[Cyberstrike nTo]

RenegonSQ wrote...

You're right, refusal is the best ending....





FOR YOU! Stop forcing your endings on people, none of them are "the best". Jesus Christ

The same here.

[Fiery Phoenix]

CronoDragoon wrote...

I personally think that anyone who picks Refuse is either a coward or Kant, but to each their own.

Interesting, because I would think picking Synthesis is a far more cowardly action...

Anyway, Refusal, as I've said several times before, is an interesting ending conceptually. That is, when it comes to execution, it is rather poor. But the idea itelf is a good addition - which, quite frankly, is an issue shared by quite a few subplots in the game.

[Wayning_Star]

wright1978 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...


Even without the EC slides, of course, it was obvious that he kid had been telling the truth, and he wasn't your enemy anymore.

It's regrettable that an explicit (rather than implicit) Refuse wasn't in from the beginning. You've got the makings of a nice tragic ending there.

Course catalyst is your enemy. It's just an enemy that has been rendered helpless and now the only weapon it has left is its forked tongue.

machines cannot lie, they can only have errors, as explained in the codex, if anyone actually has an unabridged version while posting their preferences.. I at least admit my head canons, as part of the the games underlying plot lines.

[incinerator950]

Fandango9641 wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

So says the Galiant Fandango who courageously turned down the Catalysts offer, and then died.  Only remembered (slightly) in a tape recording from a friend (possibly ex-girlfriend) who told of his outlandish and daring exploits of constructing an Ominous superweapon which never activated. 

If history be the judge of my actions, I will choose to remember mine and be remembered for saving my people then dooming them to obscurity and destruction for my pride.  Also, yours is the one who I can press in the kitchen to serve me refreshments or time in my quarters.  

I'm embarrassed for you.

That was not an expected outcome, but if you are truly embassared, I'm sorry you feel that way.  Not everyone can be in denial long enough.

[3DandBeyond]

wright1978 wrote...

AlanC9 wrote...


Even without the EC slides, of course, it was obvious that he kid had been telling the truth, and he wasn't your enemy anymore.

It's regrettable that an explicit (rather than implicit) Refuse wasn't in from the beginning. You've got the makings of a nice tragic ending there.

Course catalyst is your enemy. It's just an enemy that has been rendered helpless and now the only weapon it has left is its forked tongue.

LOL