Well, Destroy was made to be the selfish choice here, you can live, but you will destroy all your synthetics allies because, after all, it can't only target the Reapers themselves.At least in refuse, everyone goes down the same way, synthetics and organics.
Fiery Phoenix wrote...
Interesting, because I would think picking Synthesis is a far more cowardly action...CronoDragoon wrote...
I personally think that anyone who picks Refuse is either a coward or Kant, but to each their own.
Anyway, Refusal, as I've said several times before, is an interesting ending conceptually. That is, when it comes to execution, it is rather poor. But the idea itelf is a good addition - which, quite frankly, is an issue shared by quite a few subplots in the game.
Guest_Cthulhu42_*
I'm pretty sure I called out Legion for lying to me a couple times in ME3.Wayning_Star wrote...
machines cannot lie,
incinerator950 wrote...
pirate1802 wrote...
Wayning_Star wrote...
nobody knows the trouble I'v seen, nobody knows but Javik...
The poor thing...
Isn't that a song?
Wayning_Star wrote...
wright1978 wrote...
AlanC9 wrote...
Even without the EC slides, of course, it was obvious that he kid had been telling the truth, and he wasn't your enemy anymore.
It's regrettable that an explicit (rather than implicit) Refuse wasn't in from the beginning. You've got the makings of a nice tragic ending there.
Course catalyst is your enemy. It's just an enemy that has been rendered helpless and now the only weapon it has left is its forked tongue.
machines cannot lie, they can only have errors, as explained in the codex, if anyone actually has an unabridged version while posting their preferences.. I at least admit my head canons, as part of the the games underlying plot lines.
Guest_Fandango_*
incinerator950 wrote...
That was not an expected outcome, but if you are truly embassared, I'm sorry you feel that way. Not everyone can be in denial long enough.Fandango9641 wrote...
incinerator950 wrote...
So says the Galiant Fandango who courageously turned down the Catalysts offer, and then died. Only remembered (slightly) in a tape recording from a friend (possibly ex-girlfriend) who told of his outlandish and daring exploits of constructing an Ominous superweapon which never activated.
If history be the judge of my actions, I will choose to remember mine and be remembered for saving my people then dooming them to obscurity and destruction for my pride. Also, yours is the one who I can press in the kitchen to serve me refreshments or time in my quarters.
I'm embarrassed for you.
Fandango9641 wrote...
incinerator950 wrote...
That was not an expected outcome, but if you are truly embassared, I'm sorry you feel that way. Not everyone can be in denial long enough.Fandango9641 wrote...
incinerator950 wrote...
So says the Galiant Fandango who courageously turned down the Catalysts offer, and then died. Only remembered (slightly) in a tape recording from a friend (possibly ex-girlfriend) who told of his outlandish and daring exploits of constructing an Ominous superweapon which never activated.
If history be the judge of my actions, I will choose to remember mine and be remembered for saving my people then dooming them to obscurity and destruction for my pride. Also, yours is the one who I can press in the kitchen to serve me refreshments or time in my quarters.
I'm embarrassed for you.
Keep the thumb, I know where its been.
EDI has lied.wright1978 wrote...
Wayning_Star wrote...
wright1978 wrote...
AlanC9 wrote...
Even without the EC slides, of course, it was obvious that he kid had been telling the truth, and he wasn't your enemy anymore.
It's regrettable that an explicit (rather than implicit) Refuse wasn't in from the beginning. You've got the makings of a nice tragic ending there.
Course catalyst is your enemy. It's just an enemy that has been rendered helpless and now the only weapon it has left is its forked tongue.
machines cannot lie, they can only have errors, as explained in the codex, if anyone actually has an unabridged version while posting their preferences.. I at least admit my head canons, as part of the the games underlying plot lines.
Of course they can potentially lie if said machine is sufficiently advanced. Say an ancient trillions of year old AI with an extreme idealogical agenda.
Cthulhu42 wrote...
I'm pretty sure I called out Legion for lying to me a couple times in ME3.Wayning_Star wrote...
machines cannot lie,
Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 30 juillet 2012 - 06:16 .
I think the point we want to make now is that machines can lie, sapient or not.Wayning_Star wrote...
Cthulhu42 wrote...
I'm pretty sure I called out Legion for lying to me a couple times in ME3.Wayning_Star wrote...
machines cannot lie,
wasn't those mistakes in understanding/losses in translation, not actually premeditated 'lies'. Shep had to correct him, not discipline for deceptions. Legion was a good sort for me in the game. A lot like his creator race. The catalyst is like its creators, that's why it went berserk and harvested them. It didn't like them for some reason, or it took it's program a bit too far and went rogue. Still hasn't made it to sapient yet tho, thats why nobody understands nor trust it. Many on here are 'humanizing' the catalyst. Like they would with EDI, a human sentient, fastly approching sapience. We, as humans, can identify with that, not the catalyst..its alien, but still the most powerful contraption to deal with or go around as the choices permit.
Guest_Cthulhu42_*
No, it lied about the Reaper code.Wayning_Star wrote...
Cthulhu42 wrote...
I'm pretty sure I called out Legion for lying to me a couple times in ME3.Wayning_Star wrote...
machines cannot lie,
wasn't those mistakes in understanding/losses in translation, not actually premeditated 'lies'. Shep had to correct him, not discipline for deceptions.
Zardoc wrote...
Well, Destroy was made to be the selfish choice here, you can live, but you will destroy all your synthetics allies because, after all, it can't only target the Reapers themselves.At least in refuse, everyone goes down the same way, synthetics and organics.
iamweaver wrote...
EDI has lied.wright1978 wrote...
Wayning_Star wrote...
wright1978 wrote...
AlanC9 wrote...
Even without the EC slides, of course, it was obvious that he kid had been telling the truth, and he wasn't your enemy anymore.
It's regrettable that an explicit (rather than implicit) Refuse wasn't in from the beginning. You've got the makings of a nice tragic ending there.
Course catalyst is your enemy. It's just an enemy that has been rendered helpless and now the only weapon it has left is its forked tongue.
machines cannot lie, they can only have errors, as explained in the codex, if anyone actually has an unabridged version while posting their preferences.. I at least admit my head canons, as part of the the games underlying plot lines.
Of course they can potentially lie if said machine is sufficiently advanced. Say an ancient trillions of year old AI with an extreme idealogical agenda.
AtreiyaN7 wrote...
Pardon me while I laugh at your reasoning there. *rolls on the floor with laughter* Refusing equates to the condemnation of all intelligent organic life to death. Do explain to me how that's a good thing - oh, and then there's my firm belief that anyone who places their principles above the lives of others is being a selfish twit. The goals don't line up with your morals, they do line up with MY morals (to preserve intelligent life in all its forms and to advance our collective knowledge if possible). I don't start threads trying to force my beliefs on others, so how about you people quit trying to force your beliefs on the rest of us? *rolleyes*
I think I'm going to start using that quote from Queen Lili'uokalani soon from Unfamiliar Fishes soon if I have to keep reading this crap. See, after the queen's unlawful imprisonment, some of her supporters were arrested. The usurpers whole stole her kingdom (Hawaii) threatened to execute them if she didn't do what they wanted. The queen basically said that if they had threatened her with death, she would have continued to resist even if it cost her her life. But she wouldn't throw away the lives of her people just because of her own principles. She put others before herself - maybe you people should take a lesson from that.
Taboo-XX wrote...
Zardoc wrote...
Well, Destroy was made to be the selfish choice here, you can live, but you will destroy all your synthetics allies because, after all, it can't only target the Reapers themselves.At least in refuse, everyone goes down the same way, synthetics and organics.
Taboo-XX wrote...
Zardoc wrote...
Well, Destroy was made to be the selfish choice here, you can live, but you will destroy all your synthetics allies because, after all, it can't only target the Reapers themselves.At least in refuse, everyone goes down the same way, synthetics and organics.
Wayning_Star wrote...
3DandBeyond wrote...
Batnat wrote...
*snip*
That's exactly it, the kid has lied. Indoctrination creates lies. The kid is the only one that knows all about what this whole mess will do. He contradicts himself.
I look back at the only non-metagaming I could do. That's when I first played the endings. I couldn't believe this was what I'd been working towards. And then I couldn't believe this is what I was expected to do. And back then there was a lot less crap being said. He was "crazy" but not crazy with all those words and the slides of happiness that came after the crazy. I instantly saw him as my enemy. He was a wolf in sheep's clothing. A totally insane one, but one nonetheless.
none of that works cause you give the catalyst purely too much credit. It's just an AI, not a super being from outer space. It's builders on the other hand had billions of years to learn deceit and are so called super beings from outer space.They programmed the catalyst, and from him the reapers, and they've played you, kept you confused, disoriented, filled with fear and loathing. The funny part is, that the catalyst creators are Sheps best allies against the reaper threat, even though long dead.
Totally insane? lol now THAT is funny.
Wayning_Star wrote...
Taboo-XX wrote...
Zardoc wrote...
Well, Destroy was made to be the selfish choice here, you can live, but you will destroy all your synthetics allies because, after all, it can't only target the Reapers themselves.At least in refuse, everyone goes down the same way, synthetics and organics.
snip
who IS that guy Taboo?? It would help me 'get it' if I only knew..
Zardoc wrote...
Well, Destroy was made to be the selfish choice here, you can live, but you will destroy all your synthetics allies because, after all, it can't only target the Reapers themselves.At least in refuse, everyone goes down the same way, synthetics and organics.
3DandBeyond wrote...
AlanC9 wrote...
3DandBeyond wrote...
It is because the writers only listened to the idea of refuse as they saw it. Every post on refuse that I ever saw or took part in discussing was for Shepard to regain a backbone and tell the kid to F off.
We must have been reading different threads. I saw plenty of posts saying that refusing would be great for RP, but it would be stupid for it to lead to victory.
Perhaps so but the one I most often posted in was all about refusing and people said, even if it lead to a loss, but that they did want a possible victory. That was said repeatedly and so often it would be impossible to miss it. In the "we are listening" thread.
I see similar things though said here now. The only valid ending is a tragic must die one and I consider this selfish. I bought a game in a series that featured winning as an outcome against all odds and by making decisions. I was told that the outcome of this one would be based on all that and what I did in this game. So I completed as much as I could. I tried really hard even though the fetch quests were horrid. And I still didn't get any ending they promised. I didn't get to take Earth back. I didn't get a bittersweet or tragic ending or a victory won by determination. I got a conversation with glow boy. A conversation. Exactly how I thought the game would end.
Batnat wrote...
Wayning_Star wrote...
3DandBeyond wrote...
Batnat wrote...
*snip*
That's exactly it, the kid has lied. Indoctrination creates lies. The kid is the only one that knows all about what this whole mess will do. He contradicts himself.
I look back at the only non-metagaming I could do. That's when I first played the endings. I couldn't believe this was what I'd been working towards. And then I couldn't believe this is what I was expected to do. And back then there was a lot less crap being said. He was "crazy" but not crazy with all those words and the slides of happiness that came after the crazy. I instantly saw him as my enemy. He was a wolf in sheep's clothing. A totally insane one, but one nonetheless.
none of that works cause you give the catalyst purely too much credit. It's just an AI, not a super being from outer space. It's builders on the other hand had billions of years to learn deceit and are so called super beings from outer space.They programmed the catalyst, and from him the reapers, and they've played you, kept you confused, disoriented, filled with fear and loathing. The funny part is, that the catalyst creators are Sheps best allies against the reaper threat, even though long dead.
Totally insane? lol now THAT is funny.
Maybe not so much "insane" than having a glitch in its programming? Who really knows.
All we have to go on is what the "construct" which is "just as much an AI as Shepard is an animal" tells us.
Some believe what it says, I don´t!
During it´s speech it contradicts itself, first it refers to the Reapers as "they" then it is suddenly "we" and "us"...it created the Reapers...it is part of the Citadel...(didn´t the Reapers build the Citadel or did I miss something?)...its whole logic revolves around the premise of the created always rebelling against their creators...it created/controls the Reapers (where´re the rebels? Leviathan, you here yet?)...it embodies the collective intelligence of all Reapers...blablabla...
Believe it if you want...some of my Sheps do too, though against my better judgement, but they just won´t listen...well, they´ll see what it gets them...RIP(ieces).
For all I know the AI could be Harbingers little avatar trying to mess with Shepard...and the Sheps who agree with that, well...they tell the brat where to stick it...worst that happens...the next cycle will prevail, thanks to Liaras timecapsule.
I can live with that bittersweet ending just fine. Much better than with Control or *gods forbid* Synthesis...or pre-EC-ending.
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