467 réponses à ce sujet

[CronoDragoon]

Wayning_Star wrote...

I'm of the impression that the crucible was never fully assembled and programmed properly, cause the races working on it were not capable of bringing it up to full capability. Whether that is possible is only found by playing the game in a way that would totally contribute to that cause. I don't even know if its possible. I do remember someone mentioning that it wasn't fully speced out though, but I cannot remember who said that? Maybe Javik, maybe the catalyst..???

The wording they use is evil: "Your Crucible appears largely intact." Me: What, is there a perfectly intact EMS level?!!!!

[Zardoc]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Shepard does not know he is going to live in Destroy. He walks right into the explosion.

If anything, I'd say shoot the pipe and hope for the best. No one else has to suffer at this point. It's all over.

One last, final, disgusting act, ends it for ALL life.

And that is why Destroy will ALWAYS be better than Refuse.

In hindsight, sure. 

But the OP's point is specifically about not using the benefit of it to decide which choice is best. 

Standing in Shepard's shoes at that point, in that situation, I can't imagine doing anything else but telling the Catalyst where to put its three options. 

I'm not Shepard, and I can reason in hindsight, as an omniscient member of the audience, so destroy it will always be.

Refuse is just as retarded without hindsight as it is with it. Ofc Shepard doesn't know whether Destroy works or not, but atleast he tried to take the one chance he had at ending the war. In Refuse you condemn billions upon billions to their death, knowingly, by refusing to atleast try.

Modifié par Zardoc, 30 juillet 2012 - 07:19 .

[incinerator950]

3DandBeyond wrote...

CronoDragoon wrote...

Maybe you should play the game again. Miranda says, "We all knew this was likely a one-way trip."

That is much different than saying "We never had a chance." And you are proving my point with Joker. Other people disagree that they will all die, like Garrus. In ME3, there is no opposing voice. Everyone knows you need to use the Crucible to win.

It's called a suicide mission.  It's not called a pretty tough mission.

Again, you're missing the purpose.  Its a suicide mission because they all are almost a 100% Casualty run, or will result in capture.  Suicide missions are not impossible for achieving mission perimeters.  If anything, you have a higher chance of your goal then surviving it.  Even the worst ending in ME2 accomplished destroying or capturing the base.  

[Teneroth]

 Having read nothing but the op I would tend to agree with the title of this thread. I mean... you are introduced to a new character, one you have never met either in person or by reputation. It even acknowledges that it works with or for the Reapers, which, let's face it, every one else who has claimed that throughout the series has been a bad guy. Even those who claimed to be in control of the situation or reapers have been working against our goals. Saren claimed to be working with the Reapers, and he was just a puppet. TIM claimed to be in control, and yet it was the other way around. Even AIs are not immune to the Reaper's influence, with the Geth falling under their control several times. So it's not like a character claiming to be working for the best intentions of the galaxy actually working for the Reapers is unheard of...

Also these characters who are working for the reaper have some claim about what 'is best' for the galaxy. Saren wanted to join them (synthesis), TIM wanted to control them (control) and that one doctor lady from Arrival wanted to 'witness their glory' (destroy). And Shepard hasn't gone along with any of them.

So now cause what appears to be an AI who says he controls the reapers pops up and claims to know what the crucible does and what it can do, oh and by the way either grab the obviously live wires over here, or shoot the tube over there, or just go ahead and jump into a beam of energy, one of those is definatly the way to go, it is different? Maybe shepard lost too much blood and can't think straight but... it doesn't make sense to me.

[Wayning_Star]

The Night Mammoth wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Shepard does not know he is going to live in Destroy. He walks right into the explosion.

If anything, I'd say shoot the pipe and hope for the best. No one else has to suffer at this point. It's all over.

One last, final, disgusting act, ends it for ALL life.

And that is why Destroy will ALWAYS be better than Refuse.

In hindsight, sure. 

But the OP's point is specifically about not using the benefit of it to decide which choice is best. 

Standing in Shepard's shoes at that point, in that situation, I can't imagine doing anything else but telling the Catalyst where to put its three options. 

I'm not Shepard, and I can reason in hindsight, as an omniscient member of the audience, so destroy it will always be.

I couldn't pick destroy cause the reapers would likely return. Too likely if you take the catalysts' word or seen the geth vs quarian troubles. It would take the re installation of another catalyst program, probably millions of years for that level of tech, but only if we get rid of all things reaper tech, when destroying, just to slow down and/or limit the chances of another catalyst solution to chaos. We don't even know if it's creators are actually gone either,so their influence could hinder our defenses agains another cycle appearing if that technology were re invented..and so on.

[CronoDragoon]

Wayning_Star wrote...
I couldn't pick destroy cause the reapers would likely return. Too likely if you take the catalysts' word or seen the geth vs quarian troubles. It would take the re installation of another catalyst program, probably millions of years for that level of tech, but only if we get rid of all things reaper tech, when destroying, just to slow down and/or limit the chances of another catalyst solution to chaos. We don't even know if it's creators are actually gone either,so their influence could hinder our defenses agains another cycle appearing if that technology were re invented..and so on.

I suppose one way to look at Destroy is whether or not you believe history is cyclical or progressive. If you think it is cyclical you're probably more likely to pick something else.

[Taboo]

I take into account the Catalyst's logical fallacies. He even states that he's taken in new variables and that this cycle is different.

I can preserve that for the most part in Destroy, at an awful price.

I know my Shepard would choose Destroy before Refusing.

In a way, Destroy IS a way of saying **** your logic, we decide what happens next.

[Wayning_Star]

Teneroth wrote...

 Having read nothing but the op I would tend to agree with the title of this thread. I mean... you are introduced to a new character, one you have never met either in person or by reputation. It even acknowledges that it works with or for the Reapers, which, let's face it, every one else who has claimed that throughout the series has been a bad guy. Even those who claimed to be in control of the situation or reapers have been working against our goals. Saren claimed to be working with the Reapers, and he was just a puppet. TIM claimed to be in control, and yet it was the other way around. Even AIs are not immune to the Reaper's influence, with the Geth falling under their control several times. So it's not like a character claiming to be working for the best intentions of the galaxy actually working for the Reapers is unheard of...

Also these characters who are working for the reaper have some claim about what 'is best' for the galaxy. Saren wanted to join them (synthesis), TIM wanted to control them (control) and that one doctor lady from Arrival wanted to 'witness their glory' (destroy). And Shepard hasn't gone along with any of them.

So now cause what appears to be an AI who says he controls the reapers pops up and claims to know what the crucible does and what it can do, oh and by the way either grab the obviously live wires over here, or shoot the tube over there, or just go ahead and jump into a beam of energy, one of those is definatly the way to go, it is different? Maybe shepard lost too much blood and can't think straight but... it doesn't make sense to me.

problems with the synopsis is that the catalyst doesn't know what the crucible is, it thinks its a power supply. The crucible, in the condition its currently in, is a wild card for the catalyst, an ace in shepards sleeve as it were. It hasn't a clue as to what it does other than when it tells it to invoke the choices. It is a machine and does what it's programmed to do, by the crucible. Had it known what the crucible does, it couldn't permit it's use, could it?

[Zardoc]

Teneroth wrote...

 Having read nothing but the op I would tend to agree with the title of this thread. I mean... you are introduced to a new character, one you have never met either in person or by reputation. It even acknowledges that it works with or for the Reapers, which, let's face it, every one else who has claimed that throughout the series has been a bad guy. Even those who claimed to be in control of the situation or reapers have been working against our goals. Saren claimed to be working with the Reapers, and he was just a puppet. TIM claimed to be in control, and yet it was the other way around. Even AIs are not immune to the Reaper's influence, with the Geth falling under their control several times. So it's not like a character claiming to be working for the best intentions of the galaxy actually working for the Reapers is unheard of...

Also these characters who are working for the reaper have some claim about what 'is best' for the galaxy. Saren wanted to join them (synthesis), TIM wanted to control them (control) and that one doctor lady from Arrival wanted to 'witness their glory' (destroy). And Shepard hasn't gone along with any of them.

So now cause what appears to be an AI who says he controls the reapers pops up and claims to know what the crucible does and what it can do, oh and by the way either grab the obviously live wires over here, or shoot the tube over there, or just go ahead and jump into a beam of energy, one of those is definatly the way to go, it is different? Maybe shepard lost too much blood and can't think straight but... it doesn't make sense to me.

You know what doesn't make sense to me? Having a superweapon that might destroy the Reapers and then not even trying to use it. If the Crucible works, then you win, if it doesn't, you are in the same spot as you are in Refuse, with the little difference that here you can say that you've atleast tried. In Refuse you essentially give up.

[Wayning_Star]

Taboo-XX wrote...

I take into account the Catalyst's logical fallacies. He even states that he's taken in new variables and that this cycle is different.

I can preserve that for the most part in Destroy, at an awful price.

I know my Shepard would choose Destroy before Refusing.

In a way, Destroy IS a way of saying **** your logic, we decide what happens next.

not without the catalysts permission you don't 'do anything.. no freedom of thought there, even if you jump off the roof, you're still at the mercy of the catalyst program... otherwise, you'd never of shown up at the citadel in the first place...

[Taboo]

Wayning_Star wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I take into account the Catalyst's logical fallacies. He even states that he's taken in new variables and that this cycle is different.

I can preserve that for the most part in Destroy, at an awful price.

I know my Shepard would choose Destroy before Refusing.

In a way, Destroy IS a way of saying **** your logic, we decide what happens next.

not without the catalysts permission you don't 'do anything.. no freedom of thought there, even if you jump off the roof, you're still at the mercy of the catalyst program... otherwise, you'd never of shown up at the citadel in the first place...

He's a proxy dude. He has no bearing on your choice.

He offers his advice on his best solution but leaves the rest up to you.

Choosing Destroy says I don't care about your programming.

[Reorte]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I take into account the Catalyst's logical fallacies. He even states that he's taken in new variables and that this cycle is different.

I can preserve that for the most part in Destroy, at an awful price.

I know my Shepard would choose Destroy before Refusing.

In a way, Destroy IS a way of saying **** your logic, we decide what happens next.

not without the catalysts permission you don't 'do anything.. no freedom of thought there, even if you jump off the roof, you're still at the mercy of the catalyst program... otherwise, you'd never of shown up at the citadel in the first place...

He's a proxy dude. He has no bearing on your choice.

He offers his advice on his best solution but leaves the rest up to you.

Choosing Destroy says I don't care about your programming.

And so what anyway? Does it matter if you think that the Catalyst is offering you its destruction on a plate or not? It and the Reapers are gone, that's what matters. Ignoring a sensible course of action merely because it's suggested by your opponent is rather childish IMO (and something that politicians seem to love doing).

Modifié par Reorte, 30 juillet 2012 - 07:31 .

[Teneroth]

Zardoc wrote...


You know what doesn't make sense to me? Having a superweapon that might destroy the Reapers and then not even trying to use it. If the Crucible works, then you win, if it doesn't, you are in the same spot as you are in Refuse, with the little difference that here you can say that you've atleast tried. In Refuse you essentially give up.

No, in refuse I don't accept that this reaper kid is anything but an attempt to confuse or convince me to damage the crucible. Why would any device be activated by shooting a tube, or grabbing two live wires to complete a circut, or jumping into a beam of energy that will probably disitigrate me. No, I don't trust this kid or what he claims the crucible does. I want to look for a button to push, switches to throw or find Avina, a character I know and trust to some extent, to tell me how to activate it. I don't want to take advice from the reapers on how best to damage the device so I can't be used. 

And, just as point of fact, has any machine in mass effect, EVER required to be shot or short circuted to work properly? In real life, and mass effect, shooting machines tends to break them. So why would doing so here be different? did the builders of the crucible realize that in order to activate it a tube had to be destroyed? so why even build the tube then, why not have it just vent into space and activate automaticly. Or build a button to connect the live circuts or something?

It MAKES NO SENSE that this is how to activate the device, it does make sense that the reapers want to throw us off and make us damage the machine so it doesn't work and/or kill ourselves so stop us from activating it. therefore, I refuse to follow the starbrats logic and want to find another way to turn it on. Like a logical switch or button. 

[Andrew_S]

So unite a galaxy with the goal of building and using the crucible only to reach the end, not use it, and make a speech while everyone is killed or harvested?

Right after picking refuse, Marauder Shields should stealth kill Shepard and shoot the tube before dying of his injuries.

[Reorte]

Teneroth wrote...

It MAKES NO SENSE that this is how to activate the device, it does make sense that the reapers want to throw us off and make us damage the machine so it doesn't work and/or kill ourselves so stop us from activating it. therefore, I refuse to follow the starbrats logic and want to find another way to turn it on. Like a logical switch or button.

Sure, it's completely idiotic but do you think that someone else is going to turn up shortly and find the on switch that you missed?

[Zardoc]

Teneroth wrote...

Zardoc wrote...


You know what doesn't make sense to me? Having a superweapon that might destroy the Reapers and then not even trying to use it. If the Crucible works, then you win, if it doesn't, you are in the same spot as you are in Refuse, with the little difference that here you can say that you've atleast tried. In Refuse you essentially give up.

No, in refuse I don't accept that this reaper kid is anything but an attempt to confuse or convince me to damage the crucible. Why would any device be activated by shooting a tube, or grabbing two live wires to complete a circut, or jumping into a beam of energy that will probably disitigrate me. No, I don't trust this kid or what he claims the crucible does. I want to look for a button to push, switches to throw or find Avina, a character I know and trust to some extent, to tell me how to activate it. I don't want to take advice from the reapers on how best to damage the device so I can't be used. 

And, just as point of fact, has any machine in mass effect, EVER required to be shot or short circuted to work properly? In real life, and mass effect, shooting machines tends to break them. So why would doing so here be different? did the builders of the crucible realize that in order to activate it a tube had to be destroyed? so why even build the tube then, why not have it just vent into space and activate automaticly. Or build a button to connect the live circuts or something?

It MAKES NO SENSE that this is how to activate the device, it does make sense that the reapers want to throw us off and make us damage the machine so it doesn't work and/or kill ourselves so stop us from activating it. therefore, I refuse to follow the starbrats logic and want to find another way to turn it on. Like a logical switch or button. 

My point still stands. You don't use the Crucible in Refuse anyway, so what does it matter if you potentially damage it in the other options?

Your options are:

Use the Crucible (with the chance that you might just damage it or it won't work in the first place)
or
Refuse to use the Crucible which, given the **** you're already in, is equivalent to "Rocks fall, everyone dies". Nice job letting everyone down there, buddy.

Modifié par Zardoc, 30 juillet 2012 - 07:37 .

[Taboo]

Reorte wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I take into account the Catalyst's logical fallacies. He even states that he's taken in new variables and that this cycle is different.

I can preserve that for the most part in Destroy, at an awful price.

I know my Shepard would choose Destroy before Refusing.

In a way, Destroy IS a way of saying **** your logic, we decide what happens next.

not without the catalysts permission you don't 'do anything.. no freedom of thought there, even if you jump off the roof, you're still at the mercy of the catalyst program... otherwise, you'd never of shown up at the citadel in the first place...

He's a proxy dude. He has no bearing on your choice.

He offers his advice on his best solution but leaves the rest up to you.

Choosing Destroy says I don't care about your programming.

And so what anyway? Does it matter if you think that the Catalyst is offering you its destruction on a plate or not? It and the Reapers are gone, that's what matters. Ignoring a sensible course of action merely because it's suggested by your opponent is rather childish IMO (and something that politicians seem to love doing).

I make my own decisions thank you. A fallacious AI is not going to do that for me.

I choose Destroy because I believe it offers the best future for ALL life.

[Teneroth]

 

Reorte wrote...

Sure, it's completely idiotic but do you think that someone else is going to turn up shortly and find the on switch that you missed? 

 

Zardoc wrote...

My point still stands. You don't use the Crucible in Refuse anyway, so what does it matter if you potentially damage it in the other options?

Your options are:

Use the Crucible (with the chance that you might just damage it or it won't work in the first place)
or
Refuse to use the Crucible. 

Let's put this to a logic grid thingy.
Our options are: Try and activate the device and potentially damage it or hope to find a more logical way of activating it.
And the random variable is if someone else finds a way to activate it (anderson, C-sec survivors, second wave of attackers from the fleet, whatever)

If we Damage the machine and no one else finds a way to activate it, nothing is lost, but the reapers wipe us out.
If we damage the machine and someone else does find a way to activate it, than the device doesn't activate, and the reapers wipe us out.

If we don't damage the machine and no one else finds a way to activate it, the device doesn't activate and the reapers wipe us out.
If we don't damage the machine and someone does find a way to activate it properly, then it destroys the reapers and we win.

the only winning situation in this case is if we don't shoot the machine. Unless you accept the star kid as on your side and telling the truth, which makes even less sense as he works for the reapers and, therefore, has no logical reason to help you out, and probably couldn't even if he wanted.

[Andrew_S]

Isnt the tube on the citadel, as in you are just blowing up the main circuits/cables where the holokid and in turn all reaper control is located? It is designed to look a way since it's a game, but you are in the main control room where you can do some damage. And the electricity...there isn't a reason that the creators had this way of interacting with the technology.

[LaZy i IS]

Zardoc wrote...
My point still stands. You don't use the Crucible in Refuse anyway, so what does it matter if you potentially damage it in the other options?

Your options are:

Use the Crucible (with the chance that you might just damage it or it won't work in the first place)
or
Refuse to use the Crucible which, given the **** you're already in, is equivalent to "Rocks fall, everyone dies". Nice job letting everyone down there, buddy.

This.

Anyways... Why do people keep making "This is why I am right" threads? No choice is perfect.
Is it an ego thing? All I seem to see in these kinds of topics are this kind of people:

 

[Batnat]

Wayning_Star wrote...

what I'm trying to get at with the catalyst is that our 'beliefs' are of no consequence. It doen't even care if we believe it or not. It merely,as a programmed machine, presents the crucible choices. It's on top of the game in it's narrow view and the crucible/original creators are banking on that for their purposes of the crucible. We're just "the help".. That's why I keep seeing the Wizard of Oz working levers'n dials, but cannot quite figure out where the curtain is to pull back to fully expose the little bugger..lol

I don't like that option cause it seems futile. The game later explains that everything turned out OK with the next in the cycle and they used the crucible and everything is OK for... Them. grumble grumble.. lol It's like admitting defeat I guess for me and not a fitting ending for Shep who's so beat down in the end game. Then the other choices are personna non grata, so I just jumped into the beam and gave the catalyst the finger of fate...say, wait'll yah get a load me you little parasite..lol (not really, I'm being dramatic I'd rather jump in than jump off, I guess.

Ah I see...I think.
I agree with you in those cases when I choose one of the RGB endings. When I choose Refuse my Shep doesn´t just do it because of her morals, but because she rejects not only the options the AI gives her but the whole idea of the AI, as in it isn´t really what it says it is at all but rather an attempt by...say Harbinger...to...well, indoctrinate her for lack of a better word. (I hope I´m not explaining it in circles...I guess the AI is rubbing of on me.)
I guess that mindset stems from my own enjoyment of the IT, which I wondered about as a possible way the game could go waaay before ME3 was released. And Refuse makes more sense to me in an IT scenario than Destroy.
And I don´t see Refuse as futile, because how the next cycle wins isn´t stated in-game and I don´t take Twitter-posts into account. So I still think the next cycle finds another way. I mean, hey, they want me to head canon...so be it.

Besides all the nice or not so nice options we have now, I´m sadly still missing the fitting ending for my main Shep. She´s gotta wait until the last DLC is out before she gets her playthrough...guess I haven´t yet given up on a miracle.

Hehe...yeah...I took the jump too my first playthrough...I was tired, confused, wanted it to be over with...it was just straight ahead and the beam was so shiny. I thought it would take me back to London...lol...shoulda listened to that kid (have I mentioned I hate kids?)...

[incinerator950]

Taboo-XX wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I take into account the Catalyst's logical fallacies. He even states that he's taken in new variables and that this cycle is different.

I can preserve that for the most part in Destroy, at an awful price.

I know my Shepard would choose Destroy before Refusing.

In a way, Destroy IS a way of saying **** your logic, we decide what happens next.

not without the catalysts permission you don't 'do anything.. no freedom of thought there, even if you jump off the roof, you're still at the mercy of the catalyst program... otherwise, you'd never of shown up at the citadel in the first place...

He's a proxy dude. He has no bearing on your choice.

He offers his advice on his best solution but leaves the rest up to you.

Choosing Destroy says I don't care about your programming.

And so what anyway? Does it matter if you think that the Catalyst is offering you its destruction on a plate or not? It and the Reapers are gone, that's what matters. Ignoring a sensible course of action merely because it's suggested by your opponent is rather childish IMO (and something that politicians seem to love doing).

I make my own decisions thank you. A fallacious AI is not going to do that for me.

I choose Destroy because I believe it offers the best future for ALL life.

I choose Control because I believe it offers me the power to correct the solution put in place by the previous Catalyst.

[Taboo]

incinerator950 wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Reorte wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

Taboo-XX wrote...

I take into account the Catalyst's logical fallacies. He even states that he's taken in new variables and that this cycle is different.

I can preserve that for the most part in Destroy, at an awful price.

I know my Shepard would choose Destroy before Refusing.

In a way, Destroy IS a way of saying **** your logic, we decide what happens next.

not without the catalysts permission you don't 'do anything.. no freedom of thought there, even if you jump off the roof, you're still at the mercy of the catalyst program... otherwise, you'd never of shown up at the citadel in the first place...

He's a proxy dude. He has no bearing on your choice.

He offers his advice on his best solution but leaves the rest up to you.

Choosing Destroy says I don't care about your programming.

And so what anyway? Does it matter if you think that the Catalyst is offering you its destruction on a plate or not? It and the Reapers are gone, that's what matters. Ignoring a sensible course of action merely because it's suggested by your opponent is rather childish IMO (and something that politicians seem to love doing).

I make my own decisions thank you. A fallacious AI is not going to do that for me.

I choose Destroy because I believe it offers the best future for ALL life.

I choose Control because I believe it offers me the power to correct the solution put in place by the previous Catalyst.

And that's entirely valid.

[Zardoc]

Teneroth wrote...

 

Reorte wrote...

Sure, it's completely idiotic but do you think that someone else is going to turn up shortly and find the on switch that you missed? 

 

Zardoc wrote...

My point still stands. You don't use the Crucible in Refuse anyway, so what does it matter if you potentially damage it in the other options?

Your options are:

Use the Crucible (with the chance that you might just damage it or it won't work in the first place)
or
Refuse to use the Crucible. 

Let's put this to a logic grid thingy.
Our options are: Try and activate the device and potentially damage it or hope to find a more logical way of activating it.
And the random variable is if someone else finds a way to activate it (anderson, C-sec survivors, second wave of attackers from the fleet, whatever)

If we Damage the machine and no one else finds a way to activate it, nothing is lost, but the reapers wipe us out.
If we damage the machine and someone else does find a way to activate it, than the device doesn't activate, and the reapers wipe us out.

If we don't damage the machine and no one else finds a way to activate it, the device doesn't activate and the reapers wipe us out.
If we don't damage the machine and someone does find a way to activate it properly, then it destroys the reapers and we win.

the only winning situation in this case is if we don't shoot the machine. Unless you accept the star kid as on your side and telling the truth, which makes even less sense as he works for the reapers and, therefore, has no logical reason to help you out, and probably couldn't even if he wanted.

This doesn't work, since the Reapers are systematically wiping out all of our forces. Anderson is dead, if any C-Sec is still alive they are too far away and there is no second wave. Nobody else is coming.

Modifié par Zardoc, 30 juillet 2012 - 07:45 .

[Brovikk Rasputin]

Destroy is the best choice, since you destroy all Reapers and save everyone.

Modifié par Brovikk Rasputin, 30 juillet 2012 - 07:44 .