467 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...
And while we're at it--even if faced with only one impossible choice, no military commander worth anything is going to say, "we're all gonna die!!!!" which is basically what Hackett says, except before Cronos.  If they can't get the catalyst then they go to plan b.  If it's all impossible what exactly is plan b?

What was Yamamoto's Plan B? He didn't have one, because there wasn't a possible one. Short of some fantasy of US political collapse coming true, and Yamamoto had no way to make that happen.

(Not that his Plan A was all that good. An attack on only the Dutch colonial empire would have produced a very different political situation in the US)

[Wayning_Star]

Fiery Phoenix wrote...

Wayning_Star wrote...

another reason I chose synthesis, cause that way you are not being influenced by your hatred for the catalyst, it doesn't matter to you and you'll be there to 'get into it's programming' once and for all. Destroy just lets me bath in my own emotions, getting even, paying back. But it takes more than we recieve, as the geth are gone, poor EDI, our coolest creation(besides babies of course:) is gone and the reaper threat may be gone for a time, but if the synthetics do decide to revolt and one gets the bright idea that was given the catalyst, then what? Sure it's a big if, but all those memories, data and possibilities lost from those that suffered the reapers. Seems to me like too much to lose for them,and the MEU..just say'n

Have you not considered the fact that Destroy is the only ending that allows organics to fully salvage Reaper technology, now that the galaxy is littered with dead Reapers?

The possibilities speak for themselves.

no, as destroy actually means what it says, all reapers tech having anything to do whit synthetic life is gone, as with the memories and DNA of probably billions of harvested societies. It's the toll for choosing destroy, just like converting billions of synthetic and organic life with synthesis, its the toll for the choice. The toll for control is trapping Shepard into a reaper, just like the catalyst did it's creators, for ever. But Shepard is around to know it..for ever. The toll for the OP's query, or refuse is the most obvious, everyone gets harvested and some other civilization attempts to and succeeds in taming the reapers, via Liaras' time capsule. Shepard fails...

Edit: well, I have to digress a bit, that Liaras time capsule, with the help of Shepard, does take some of the sting out it. But they're not around to get any kudos or instant benefits from it so, it's a measured victory of sorts. For that generation in the cycle, Liara and Shepard contribution.(bless Biowares' pee picken heart....)

Modifié par Wayning_Star, 30 juillet 2012 - 08:57 .

[AlanC9]

3DandBeyond wrote...
 I don't think someone in that position seeing that the kid lives where the choices are and he knows all about them and the kid is insane would believe all this and would need to know more.  I couldn't go on trust.

Sometimes I think what really upsets you is that if you personally were in Shepard's position, you would have doomed the galaxy.

[Batnat]

Thaa_solon wrote...

Since the choices displayed by the catalyst are illogical then the only logical choice is to refuse, but this results in failure....everyone dies

I must question this

WHY?...........why can't we win conventionally

Because reapers are invincible, no they are apperently not

They are just an conventional enemy on a unconventional scale..........oh I guess we need an unconventional weapon to win over them, yes???

NO

The resorces put on the crusible could have been spent on other war winning "stuff"
An unconventional ammount of conventional weapons would have indeed solved this

My point in short: the crusible is a complete waste of time and effort, it's a stupid/poorly written DEM put in a unplanned story in a rush job of a now meh game.

What do you think?

I think we think alike.

I can´t stand the Crucible, I´ve learned to live with it, but given the chance I´d throw it out the airlock!
Before the game came out I thought about how to improve our chances in the war. The most unconventional thing I came up with was maybe we would find some artefacts we´d previously had seen somewhere like that sphere thingy from the Firewalker missions or something from those ruins like on Eletania which would help us in some way...like weaken the Reapers shields. Other than that I counted on Thanix cannons and having scientists figure stuff out thanks to the collected data about all things Reaper.

Anything other really than having Liara conveniently stumble over some strewn about blueprints of some superdupermagicweaponthingy in a 30yrs ago discovered archive on Mars of all places like 5 minutes after the Reapers crash the party...

...silly me... 

[Wayning_Star]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
 I don't think someone in that position seeing that the kid lives where the choices are and he knows all about them and the kid is insane would believe all this and would need to know more.  I couldn't go on trust.

Sometimes I think what really upsets you is that if you personally were in Shepard's position, you would have doomed the galaxy.

Nah, more like a devils advocate.. more devil than advocate tho.. lol  3D and Beyond is a hoot, good argueer tho.

[AlanC9]

Batnat wrote...
Anything other really than having Liara conveniently stumble over some strewn about blueprints of some superdupermagicweaponthingy in a 30yrs ago discovered archive on Mars of all places like 5 minutes after the Reapers crash the party...

FWIW, I'm with you. I didn't like the prothean superweapon concept any more than I like the prothean squadmate concept. But at least I don't have to have the latter.

[Wayning_Star]

Batnat wrote...

Thaa_solon wrote...

Since the choices displayed by the catalyst are illogical then the only logical choice is to refuse, but this results in failure....everyone dies

I must question this

WHY?...........why can't we win conventionally

Because reapers are invincible, no they are apperently not

They are just an conventional enemy on a unconventional scale..........oh I guess we need an unconventional weapon to win over them, yes???

NO

The resorces put on the crusible could have been spent on other war winning "stuff"
An unconventional ammount of conventional weapons would have indeed solved this

My point in short: the crusible is a complete waste of time and effort, it's a stupid/poorly written DEM put in a unplanned story in a rush job of a now meh game.

What do you think?

I think we think alike.

I can´t stand the Crucible, I´ve learned to live with it, but given the chance I´d throw it out the airlock!
Before the game came out I thought about how to improve our chances in the war. The most unconventional thing I came up with was maybe we would find some artefacts we´d previously had seen somewhere like that sphere thingy from the Firewalker missions or something from those ruins like on Eletania which would help us in some way...like weaken the Reapers shields. Other than that I counted on Thanix cannons and having scientists figure stuff out thanks to the collected data about all things Reaper.

Anything other really than having Liara conveniently stumble over some strewn about blueprints of some superdupermagicweaponthingy in a 30yrs ago discovered archive on Mars of all places like 5 minutes after the Reapers crash the party...

...silly me... 

well, thats the end then, no sense in saving such a silly universe..they weren't really there anyway..so..

[Batnat]

AlanC9 wrote...

Batnat wrote...
Anything other really than having Liara conveniently stumble over some strewn about blueprints of some superdupermagicweaponthingy in a 30yrs ago discovered archive on Mars of all places like 5 minutes after the Reapers crash the party...

FWIW, I'm with you. I didn't like the prothean superweapon concept any more than I like the prothean squadmate concept. But at least I don't have to have the latter.

Yeah...I think it would me more acceptable if we would have gotten the plans from Vigil or at least have him mention the damn thing. I know of course back then the whole story wasn´t even thought of yet....as it should have been IMO!

[iamweaver]

3DandBeyond wrote...
It's called the suicide mission because no one ever has returned from beyond the Omega IV relay.  Over the last thousand years people have gone through it and never returned.  That's why you need the reaper IFF, but they don't even know if that will work.  The Collectors come through it because it recognizes them.

THen it's not a SUicide Mission.  A suicide mission is one where you *know* that you will fail, or that the odds are heavily stacked against you.  A better name for this would have been the Flying Blind Mission, because that's what it was.  I find it hard to believe that you don't know what a suicide is...

Miranda says that because they all thought there was a good chance they wouldn't return even before they crashed.

Show me one dialogue tree where someone seriously thought that this was guaranteed, or heavily likely to be, a one-way trip. What was correctly said was, this might very well be a one-way trip, which is accurate.
 

Yes Shepard goes into it ready to sacrifice but where others think it's impossible to come back s/he doesn't.  And I agree Shepard has no way of knowing if s/he he will have to die, just as s/he has no way of knowing if s/he will be successful.  Believing you will live and will succeed are a part of the battle.  If you've already given up, then you will do neither without someone swooping in and saving you.

what is this, GI Joe?  The situation faced by the combined fleet was desperate. Not facing that fact would have been pretty impossible to do, as anyone (including Shepherd) could see te score.  The question was, could they go in and do whatever it took, including sacrificing themselves, to allow the {McGuffin that we don't know how it works} to do its job?

And while we're at it--even if faced with only one impossible choice, no military commander worth anything is going to say, "we're all gonna die!!!!" which is basically what Hackett says, except before Cronos.  If they can't get the catalyst then they go to plan b.  If it's all impossible what exactly is plan b?

I guess you weren't listening to Kirrahe at Vermire, or didn't even hear your own advice to Lt. Victus  at Tuchanka.  Military leaders *do* have to tell their soldiers what they are facing - even if that's that things will get desperate.

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...

Without metagaming you play as Shepard. One type of Shepard is the idealistic hero that has always seen the foe clearly and wants nothing more than to eradicate that foe. This type of Shepard does not believe anything is impossible and would not say it is. That's the Shepard I played in ME1 and 2.

You really played a Shepard who can't tell when a situation is hopeless? Who thinks he's living in some sort of fantasy world where if he just tries really hard he can do anything he wants to do? How did he explain his failure on Virmire? Did he just not want to rescue both squadmates enough?

Some things are impossible. No matter how much Hitler thought he could turn things around in late 1944, he couldn't.

(Sorry for Godwinning there, but it's a perfect example of someone being unable to understand that a war really is lost.)

I played a game.  I live real life.  In the game, I had to make hard choices but never had the feeling ever that I couldn't win because I always did.  Or there would be no Shepard in ME3 and my teammates would be gone.  Sorry forr this, but if all you saw was dispair or hopelessness, what game were you playing?

If ME was about not finding a way to win, ME2 and ME3 wouldn't exist.

[Wayning_Star]

why play a game if you don't want to play the game?

disclaimer: kind of off topic, but still kind of relevant..

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Okay this transparent dude at the end claims to be the Catalyst. I'm supposed to believe it. It can't make anything happen, and it won't make anything happen. The true Catalyst precipitates an action. This thing precipitates nothing. It is a mouthpiece. It is going to spew reaper propaganda.

The real Catalyst is standing before it. That's you. That's why you can never find the Catalyst. You have not looked within. The metaphor here is seeing the Buddha on the side of the road. You have not discovered your own Buddha nature.

Only you can initiate the action. All this thing can do is sway your judgement. It wants to kill you so it can continue with its solution unless you voluntarily die and join with it in Synthesis. It will accept your death and Control. Or you can destroy it and its toys and end its fun and live in a pile of garbage, but it will have a parting shot. Or just die.

Plan B? Drop copies of Liara's time capsule on all garden worlds with stone age life?

[3DandBeyond]

AlanC9 wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
 I don't think someone in that position seeing that the kid lives where the choices are and he knows all about them and the kid is insane would believe all this and would need to know more.  I couldn't go on trust.

Sometimes I think what really upsets you is that if you personally were in Shepard's position, you would have doomed the galaxy.

Well this is the most preposterous of all.  If I were in any position I would defer to people that actually know how to write SF and to make endings that make some sense within a series of stories and games.  Really this is a joke.  I don't mind hard choices.  I just like choices that don't insult my intelligence and could exist within the realm created.  If this were a dark fantasy then fine.  If it were real life then of course sadness exists-I've had my share.  But this is a game and within the game there were hard choices, but they existed for a reason.  They weren't put there arbitrarily so the writers didn't have to actually write anything.  But instead in ME3 every intelligent mind goes crazy and they desperately better hope for a MacGuffin and a DeM-and there they are.

[Batnat]

Wayning_Star wrote...
well, thats the end then, no sense in saving such a silly universe..they weren't really there anyway..so..

Hehe...you would probably be surprised how close my usual world view is in that regard.

Let´s just say I give more thought to the consequences of my in-game actions then I would in our little universe.
My Shepard/s tend to be a bit less misanthropic than me and even they get sick of their forced love of earth in ME3. Imagine how much I like the prologue compared to the endings. <_<

[Wayning_Star]

sH0tgUn jUliA wrote...

Okay this transparent dude at the end claims to be the Catalyst. I'm supposed to believe it. It can't make anything happen, and it won't make anything happen. The true Catalyst precipitates an action. This thing precipitates nothing. It is a mouthpiece. It is going to spew reaper propaganda.

The real Catalyst is standing before it. That's you. That's why you can never find the Catalyst. You have not looked within. The metaphor here is seeing the Buddha on the side of the road. You have not discovered your own Buddha nature.

Only you can initiate the action. All this thing can do is sway your judgement. It wants to kill you so it can continue with its solution unless you voluntarily die and join with it in Synthesis. It will accept your death and Control. Or you can destroy it and its toys and end its fun and live in a pile of garbage, but it will have a parting shot. Or just die.

Plan B? Drop copies of Liara's time capsule on all garden worlds with stone age life?

can't die and  join with stuff...physically anyways. The catalyst is merely a reflection of the situation, a child of the original creators. It's not bent on your distruction, it's bent on the cycle as it miffed up in controlling it's creators.Thats where it got the idea in the first place. Why mess up some stone age race with reaper tech? What'd they do to you??? When you can just as easily mend the situation.

[o Ventus]

I disagree. I see it more as that the Catalyst it not a liar, simply an idiot. A liar doesn't give you the power to push him into the suicide booth.

And FYI, the Catalyst never tells him to walk up to the tubes in Destroy. Shepard just went full retard, that's all.

[3DandBeyond]

iamweaver wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
It's called the suicide mission because no one ever has returned from beyond the Omega IV relay.  Over the last thousand years people have gone through it and never returned.  That's why you need the reaper IFF, but they don't even know if that will work.  The Collectors come through it because it recognizes them.

THen it's not a SUicide Mission.  A suicide mission is one where you *know* that you will fail, or that the odds are heavily stacked against you.  A better name for this would have been the Flying Blind Mission, because that's what it was.  I find it hard to believe that you don't know what a suicide is...

Well thank you for telling me what I don't know.  My sister committed suicide by getting in the garage and turning on her car till she was dead.  Thank you so much.  You self-important people have no idea and don't care what you say to anyone.  Real people are behind these words.  But alright since it's so important for you to be right.  You are so smart and right.  Stupid me.  I was playing a freaking game.  I wasn't playing one where I am forced into genocide, molestation/rape-and oh yes before you ask what I'd know about that-I was raped when I was young, and godhood/totalitarianism.

So sorry I expressed an opinion and ruined your life.  Oh and before you ask I doubly know what suicide is because a good friend of mine committed suicide and I've talked people out of doing it.  I've also seen enough dead people to last a lifetime.  I am so sick and tired of people equating art with death and coolness with immoral depressing disgusting choices that do not belong in this game.  I could see if they were in a game called "Let's Be Morose", but not this game. Oh and then for good measure standing up and saying you won't make a choice because it insults your morality to do so is rewarded with death because as you've shown me here I am just too stupid to understand.

Everyone here who has disagreed with my opinion has insulted me and acted like I am a 2 year old.  Well I may not know everything but I've lived a life none of you would want to live and I have a far more positive view of others than you.  ME was about that.  If you can't see that then I pity you.  Nothing is inevitable and nothing is impossible and I like my heroes alive.

Modifié par 3DandBeyond, 30 juillet 2012 - 09:25 .

[o Ventus]

iamweaver wrote...

THen it's not a SUicide Mission.  A suicide mission is one where you *know* that you will fail, or that the odds are heavily stacked against you.  A better name for this would have been the Flying Blind Mission, because that's what it was.  I find it hard to believe that you don't know what a suicide is...

They're invading the Collector "homeworld" with 1 frigate-class ship and a crew of 13 combatants (including Shepard). I would say that puts the odds pretty heavily out of Shepard's favor.

[iamweaver]

o Ventus wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

THen it's not a SUicide Mission.  A suicide mission is one where you *know* that you will fail, or that the odds are heavily stacked against you.  A better name for this would have been the Flying Blind Mission, because that's what it was.  I find it hard to believe that you don't know what a suicide is...

They're invading the Collector "homeworld" with 1 frigate-class ship and a crew of 13 combatants (including Shepard). I would say that puts the odds pretty heavily out of Shepard's favor.

THis, I disagree with.

If it were true that, upon exiting the Mass Effect Relay, Normandy found out that there was an entire homeworld and a zillion ships on the other side, then I'm thinking that there would have to be some rethinking going on.  IMO, this scenario was unlikely, as we only saw one collector ship, maybe two, in action simultaneously - but it could have happened.

But if it happened, Shepherd would be an idiot to attack the homeworld, guns a-blazing.

[Batnat]

iamweaver wrote...

Show me one dialogue tree where someone seriously thought that this was guaranteed, or heavily likely to be, a one-way trip. What was correctly said was, this might very well be a one-way trip, which is accurate.

Thane when recruiting him, renegade dialogue: "A suicide mission? Yes...a suicide mission would do nicely."

Modifié par Batnat, 30 juillet 2012 - 09:33 .

[o Ventus]

iamweaver wrote...

Show me one dialogue tree where someone seriously thought that this was guaranteed, or heavily likely to be, a one-way trip. What was correctly said was, this might very well be a one-way trip, which is accurate.
 

"This isn't time for emotional entanglement! You and I know more about the Collectors than anybody. We both know just how unlikely it is that we're coming back alive..."

-Miranda, penultimate romance conversation

"We both know this is likely a 1-way trip."

- The Illusive Man, before launching the suicide mission

Modifié par o Ventus, 30 juillet 2012 - 09:39 .

[o Ventus]

iamweaver wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

THen it's not a SUicide Mission.  A suicide mission is one where you *know* that you will fail, or that the odds are heavily stacked against you.  A better name for this would have been the Flying Blind Mission, because that's what it was.  I find it hard to believe that you don't know what a suicide is...

They're invading the Collector "homeworld" with 1 frigate-class ship and a crew of 13 combatants (including Shepard). I would say that puts the odds pretty heavily out of Shepard's favor.

THis, I disagree with.

If it were true that, upon exiting the Mass Effect Relay, Normandy found out that there was an entire homeworld and a zillion ships on the other side, then I'm thinking that there would have to be some rethinking going on.  IMO, this scenario was unlikely, as we only saw one collector ship, maybe two, in action simultaneously - but it could have happened.

But if it happened, Shepherd would be an idiot to attack the homeworld, guns a-blazing.

Well, if this isn't a non-answer...

[iamweaver]

3DandBeyond wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

3DandBeyond wrote...
It's called the suicide mission because no one ever has returned from beyond the Omega IV relay.  Over the last thousand years people have gone through it and never returned.  That's why you need the reaper IFF, but they don't even know if that will work.  The Collectors come through it because it recognizes them.

THen it's not a SUicide Mission.  A suicide mission is one where you *know* that you will fail, or that the odds are heavily stacked against you.  A better name for this would have been the Flying Blind Mission, because that's what it was.  I find it hard to believe that you don't know what a suicide is...

Well thank you for telling me what I don't know.  My sister committed suicide by getting in the garage and turning on her car till she was dead.  Thank you so much.  You self-important people have no idea and don't care what you say to anyone.  Real people are behind these words.  But alright since it's so important for you to be right.  You are so smart and right.  Stupid me.  I was playing a freaking game.  I wasn't playing one where I am forced into genocide, molestation/rape-and oh yes before you ask what I'd know about that-I was raped when I was young, and godhood/totalitarianism.

So sorry I expressed an opinion and ruined your life.  Oh and before you ask I doubly know what suicide is because a good friend of mine committed suicide and I've talked people out of doing it.  I've also seen enough dead people to last a lifetime.  I am so sick and tired of people equating art with death and coolness with immoral depressing disgusting choices that do not belong in this game.  I could see if they were in a game called "Let's Be Morose", but not this game. Oh and then for good measure standing up and saying you won't make a choice because it insults your morality to do so is rewarded with death because as you've shown me here I am just too stupid to understand.

Everyone here who has disagreed with my opinion has insulted me and acted like I am a 2 year old.  Well I may not know everything but I've lived a life none of you would want to live and I have a far more positive view of others than you.  ME was about that.  If you can't see that then I pity you.  Nothing is inevitable and nothing is impossible and I like my heroes alive.

I'm sorry to hear about the tragedies in your life.  Though I honestly don't think I have deliberately insulted you personally, only made arguments against your position in this SF game, I could be wrong, and if so I apologize.


Assuming that you hadn't, say, read up on some spoiler guide or something beforehand, in many ways the end game decision of ME3 is the toughest one that I have ever made in a video game.  There were a great number of variables to juggle, and though with 20/20 hindsight, I think I would probably stick with my original answer even after reasing a lot of cogent arguments on the board for all 4 of the endings, that's actually more luck than anything.

As a note, this is what actual command its like.  You make the best decision you can at the time, with the information that you have learned.  You hope you haven't missed anything vital, so hopefully as a leader you work hard to make sure you are up-to-date on what you can do, and your environment, but often you will make the wrong call.

[iamweaver]

o Ventus wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

THen it's not a SUicide Mission.  A suicide mission is one where you *know* that you will fail, or that the odds are heavily stacked against you.  A better name for this would have been the Flying Blind Mission, because that's what it was.  I find it hard to believe that you don't know what a suicide is...

They're invading the Collector "homeworld" with 1 frigate-class ship and a crew of 13 combatants (including Shepard). I would say that puts the odds pretty heavily out of Shepard's favor.

THis, I disagree with.

If it were true that, upon exiting the Mass Effect Relay, Normandy found out that there was an entire homeworld and a zillion ships on the other side, then I'm thinking that there would have to be some rethinking going on.  IMO, this scenario was unlikely, as we only saw one collector ship, maybe two, in action simultaneously - but it could have happened.

But if it happened, Shepherd would be an idiot to attack the homeworld, guns a-blazing.

Well, if this isn't a non-answer...

How is this a non-answer?  If upon showing up, Shepherd can quickly assess the situation and recognize that she's not going to be able to do much, her best bet would be to stooge around hoping that however the Collectors saw him last time, they won't this time, while she gathers info to take back with her.