467 réponses à ce sujet

[Pitznik]

flanny wrote...



that makes no sense as no-one knows about the catalyst how can you begin to design something that alters something you don't know about.

Building and designing a device that noone knows how it works doesn't make any sense either. To come up with it someone, the original designer of the Crucible, had to know about Catalyst or at least deduct his existence. Crucible requires a great deal of suspension of disbelief to take it seriously :/

Modifié par Pitznik, 30 juillet 2012 - 02:28 .

[RDSFirebane]

Pitznik wrote...

To sacrifice some of the people who put their trust in you to achieve your common goal is reality of war, not betrayal. To suddenly abort your goal despite having everyone else to believe in it and invest in it and give their life for it is betrayal. Refusal is betrayal.

Not when applied to entire races. When your allowing a whole race to die its betrayal cold and simple I promised to save everyone and when I couldnt I gave them the chance to try and save themselves it was the best I could do.

[incinerator950]

What Catalyst AI? I am the Catalyst, there is currently no longer a Reaper invasion.

Soon after we are done rebuilding, we will begin a lightshow spectacle. It shall include Singing Reapers, Asari Dancers, and free beer. Best of all, there is no entry fee, or indoctrination!

Modifié par incinerator950, 30 juillet 2012 - 02:32 .

[incinerator950]

RDSFirebane wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

To sacrifice some of the people who put their trust in you to achieve your common goal is reality of war, not betrayal. To suddenly abort your goal despite having everyone else to believe in it and invest in it and give their life for it is betrayal. Refusal is betrayal.

Not when applied to entire races. When your allowing a whole race to die its betrayal cold and simple I promised to save everyone and when I couldnt I gave them the chance to try and save themselves it was the best I could do.

Don't think you've had enough relationships to know not to make empty promises.  Besides, you've always said you were going to stop the Reapers, not save everyone.  Even Garrus says that, and you've only mentioned destroying the Reapers to TIM as a rebutal to ****** him off, not because you're right.

[Pitznik]

RDSFirebane wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

To sacrifice some of the people who put their trust in you to achieve your common goal is reality of war, not betrayal. To suddenly abort your goal despite having everyone else to believe in it and invest in it and give their life for it is betrayal. Refusal is betrayal.

Not when applied to entire races. When your allowing a whole race to die its betrayal cold and simple I promised to save everyone and when I couldnt I gave them the chance to try and save themselves it was the best I could do.

How is it any different when it comes to entire race? You sacrifice 1 person to save 100. You sacrifice 100,000 to save 10, 000, 000. And so on. That is how wars are won, which is sad and horrible, but noone came up with a better idea. There is always Control, if you really can't kill the Geth.

You didn't give anyone a chance, you actually consciously blew their only chance.

[iamweaver]

RDSFirebane wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

To sacrifice some of the people who put their trust in you to achieve your common goal is reality of war, not betrayal. To suddenly abort your goal despite having everyone else to believe in it and invest in it and give their life for it is betrayal. Refusal is betrayal.

Not when applied to entire races. When your allowing a whole race to die its betrayal cold and simple I promised to save everyone and when I couldnt I gave them the chance to try and save themselves it was the best I could do.

What???

You never promised to save everyone.  In fact, the game story constantly reminds you that you cannot save everybody.  What you promised to do (feel free to look up dialogues on Youtube if you've forgotten) is to "stop the reapers".

And how in heaven's name does refusal allow anyone to save themselves?  You already know the galaxy is lost unless this Crucible McGuffin is used.  You are it's "last, best hope". So once you walk away from the responsibilities that you said you took on, you doomed everyone to eventually die.

[RDSFirebane]

iamweaver wrote...

Yeah, sometimes you roll snake eyes.  But hopefully you don't welsh on your bet because of it.

The whole "hell is paved" argument only works if it's just you facing the consequences of your decisions. And you're still missing the point.  When you are chosen as leader, that means that its you who makes the decisions.  You.,  All by your lonesome, without sppending time personally asking everyone who chose you if decision X is right.


What's more - you're actually wrong.  The entire Geth collective chose you to make decisions for you, and volunteered to fight against the reapers, regardless of consequenses - and this is only if you didn't let them get wiped out.  And EDI, the other AI affected by Destroy, personally told you that she was willing to die to stop the reapers.

You have yet to explain how the Control option goes against the free will of folk in the Galaxy.

ok In control Shep says he will now protect his friends thouse races with the reapers correct?

So what are new races comeing into the game suppose to do when they get side roaded like the Baterians did?
They cant start a war for their right without reapers comeing to visit so now well I'm hopeing you can fill in the rest of that yourself.

[iamweaver]

incinerator950 wrote...

What Catalyst AI? I am the Catalyst, there is currently no longer a Reaper invasion.

Soon after we are done rebuilding, we will begin a lightshow spectacle. It shall include Singing Reapers, Asari Dancers, and free beer. Best of all, there is no entry fee, or indoctrination!

This .

If you are going to take advantage of knowing the story line, you should be choosing Control every time - because as it turns out, even of you were renegade Shep, you end up being able to responsibly use the power entrusted to you to become a positive assist on the free-willed choices of the species in the Galaxy.  What's more, you get the added benifit of having the knowledge of the quadrillions of beings who came before you, too.  It's pretty much a win-win-win scenario.

[incinerator950]

iamweaver wrote...

incinerator950 wrote...

What Catalyst AI? I am the Catalyst, there is currently no longer a Reaper invasion.

Soon after we are done rebuilding, we will begin a lightshow spectacle. It shall include Singing Reapers, Asari Dancers, and free beer. Best of all, there is no entry fee, or indoctrination!

This .

If you are going to take advantage of knowing the story line, you should be choosing Control every time - because as it turns out, even of you were renegade Shep, you end up being able to responsibly use the power entrusted to you to become a positive assist on the free-willed choices of the species in the Galaxy.  What's more, you get the added benifit of having the knowledge of the quadrillions of beings who came before you, too.  It's pretty much a win-win-win scenario.

Who says I'm responsible?  I just want a giant party.  

[RDSFirebane]

iamweaver wrote...


What???

You never promised to save everyone.  In fact, the game story constantly reminds you that you cannot save everybody.  What you promised to do (feel free to look up dialogues on Youtube if you've forgotten) is to "stop the reapers".

And how in heaven's name does refusal allow anyone to save themselves?  You already know the galaxy is lost unless this Crucible McGuffin is used.  You are it's "last, best hope". So once you walk away from the responsibilities that you said you took on, you doomed everyone to eventually die.

I get the feeling you arnt understanding me lol.

Ok so you didnt promise to save everyone so they are all following you in hopes you'll just save the human race right? um no their hopeing you can save all of them that you can put a end to the reapers.

I said gave them the chance Shep has no clue whats going to happen that's how I decided by my shep I'm sorry are all of you takeing this personaly? I was pretty sure it was just a game and am standing by how my character felt.

[iamweaver]

RDSFirebane wrote...

iamweaver wrote...

Yeah, sometimes you roll snake eyes.  But hopefully you don't welsh on your bet because of it.

The whole "hell is paved" argument only works if it's just you facing the consequences of your decisions. And you're still missing the point.  When you are chosen as leader, that means that its you who makes the decisions.  You.,  All by your lonesome, without sppending time personally asking everyone who chose you if decision X is right.


What's more - you're actually wrong.  The entire Geth collective chose you to make decisions for you, and volunteered to fight against the reapers, regardless of consequenses - and this is only if you didn't let them get wiped out.  And EDI, the other AI affected by Destroy, personally told you that she was willing to die to stop the reapers.

You have yet to explain how the Control option goes against the free will of folk in the Galaxy.

ok In control Shep says he will now protect his friends thouse races with the reapers correct?

So what are new races comeing into the game suppose to do when they get side roaded like the Baterians did?
They cant start a war for their right without reapers comeing to visit so now well I'm hopeing you can fill in the rest of that yourself.

No, he doesn't.  Feel free to watch the cutscenes on Youtube.

Now you're just making up stuff.

There's no indication that GodShep treats any one species better than any other.  He does say that he will protect the galaxy against invaders, so I guess if you really believe in free will, then fighting a defensive war is oppressing the free will of those who want to take over the Galaxy.

[DirtyPhoenix]

iamweaver wrote...
You already know the galaxy is lost unless this Crucible McGuffin is used. 

I'm a bit uninitiated, so what is this McGruffin you speak of and what does it mean?

[DirtyPhoenix]

Looks like controllers, destroyers and synthesizers all hate refusal equally

Modifié par pirate1802, 30 juillet 2012 - 02:41 .

[Pitznik]

RDSFirebane wrote...


I get the feeling you arnt understanding me lol.

Ok so you didnt promise to save everyone so they are all following you in hopes you'll just save the human race right? um no their hopeing you can save all of them that you can put a end to the reapers.

I said gave them the chance Shep has no clue whats going to happen that's how I decided by my shep I'm sorry are all of you takeing this personaly? I was pretty sure it was just a game and am standing by how my character felt.

Shepard knows very well what is going to happen. How can you even argue about it - it is said all the time by everyone. It turns out that practically all "Refusal" people are in denial about the ability of allied forces to defeat the Reapers and instead build some headcanon. Can't really discuss with headcanon.

[RDSFirebane]

iamweaver wrote...

No, he doesn't.  Feel free to watch the cutscenes on Youtube.

Now you're just making up stuff.

There's no indication that GodShep treats any one species better than any other.  He does say that he will protect the galaxy against invaders, so I guess if you really believe in free will, then fighting a defensive war is oppressing the free will of those who want to take over the Galaxy.

alright could have sworn he said something along thouse lines.

I know theres other threads where people better then I point out the flaws with Control go have a chat with them

[flanny]

Pitznik wrote...

flanny wrote...



that makes no sense as no-one knows about the catalyst how can you begin to design something that alters something you don't know about.

Building and designing a device that noone knows how it works doesn't make any sense either. To come up with it someone, the original designer of the Crucible, had to know about Catalyst or at least deduct his existence. Crucible requires a great deal of suspension of disbelief to take it seriously :/

which, without metagaming, is why you should distrust it.

[Pitznik]

pirate1802 wrote...

Looks like controllers, destroyers and synthesizers all hate refusal equally

I would pick synthesis over refusal any day, even if I don't understand it and find it.... way too "magical".

Destroy is my pragmatist Renegade choice.

Control is my idealist Paragon choice.

[3DandBeyond]

I 100% agree that without meta-gaming, reject is the only logical option. Or, really shooting the kid is. Once he says he controls the reapers, I'd be done talking and done listening. For once the kid at the beginning would have made some sense. If his effigy controls the reapers then he "can't help me". The fact that nothing that he says beyond that makes sense further affirms all that. And I cringe that Shepard ask some really stupid questions. Especially never asks anything important. "If I choose destroy what exactly happens-you didn't explain that very well-I mean I don't want it if I'm going to end up a gasping torso alone in a pile of rubble in some unknown location. And why can't you make it target just the reapers?"

Or how about really pressing the issue that if the kid's solution is no longer working then maybe Shepard should say that's a good thing, so if it doesn't work you can just go now.

So, it comes down to the idea that in a game the choice is to shoot a kid's image in the face, choose genocide, molestation/assault, or godhood and control over mass murderers-making people accept them running around the galaxy after they've killed billions.

The moral choice is reject or refuse and so you deserve to be rewarded for doing the right and difficult thing, right? No, no you don't.

[RDSFirebane]

Pitznik wrote...

Shepard knows very well what is going to happen. How can you even argue about it - it is said all the time by everyone. It turns out that practically all "Refusal" people are in denial about the ability of allied forces to defeat the Reapers and instead build some headcanon. Can't really discuss with headcanon.

I'm not useing head cannon at all its a 50/50 guess I'm sorry do we need to make a list of all the impossiple things done in Me 1 and 2 amd then revisit 3 stateing how the reapers are impossiple to beat plz it came down to the writer decided what would happen and that's it.

also "nothing is impossiple only highly improbable" - quantum mechanics

[DirtyPhoenix]

Pitznik wrote...

RDSFirebane wrote...


I get the feeling you arnt understanding me lol.

Ok so you didnt promise to save everyone so they are all following you in hopes you'll just save the human race right? um no their hopeing you can save all of them that you can put a end to the reapers.

I said gave them the chance Shep has no clue whats going to happen that's how I decided by my shep I'm sorry are all of you takeing this personaly? I was pretty sure it was just a game and am standing by how my character felt.

Shepard knows very well what is going to happen. How can you even argue about it - it is said all the time by everyone. It turns out that practically all "Refusal" people are in denial about the ability of allied forces to defeat the Reapers and instead build some headcanon. Can't really discuss with headcanon.

[Pitznik]

flanny wrote...

Pitznik wrote...

flanny wrote...



that makes no sense as no-one knows about the catalyst how can you begin to design something that alters something you don't know about.

Building and designing a device that noone knows how it works doesn't make any sense either. To come up with it someone, the original designer of the Crucible, had to know about Catalyst or at least deduct his existence. Crucible requires a great deal of suspension of disbelief to take it seriously :/

which, without metagaming, is why you should distrust it.

I do. But I have no other choice. Practically everyone in the galaxy is willing to bet everything on absolute unknown - that means they have absolutely no faith in any different approach. That means inability of allied forces to defeat Reaper is absolutely obvious for them.

[Seival]

RDSFirebane wrote...

Seival wrote...

What you were "confirmed via the twitter" doesn't really matter. How many Cycles were required to make even a little possibility to stop the Reapers? Thousands? Millions? What hope will future Cycles have with Catalist's readiness to the Crucible and anything similar?

The conclusion is simple: In case of Refusal Cycles will become unstoppable.

...Suggestion: Don't look for answers in the twitter. Look for them in the game.

Sorry the fact the lead writter states that Refusal still leads to a win completey throws what you think out the window and no they adapted to stop the cycles once would only be a matter of time till some race did so again matter a fact they do so the next cycle its amazeing really.

Soon after facing strong vocal opposition to the endings, lead writer stated that Mass Relays were destroyed forever and Galactic Civilization will find new ways for interstellar travel. But some of us were understanding that wasn't truth. And then there was EC release.

This is called Damage Control. BioWare don't want people to become very disappointed. They prepare people for understanding. Sometimes giving them "false confirmations" before saying the truth, or avoid saying the truth officially like in case of "IT". "IT" was debunked, but BioWare didn't kill "IT" fans' desire do delude themselves.

Modifié par Seival, 30 juillet 2012 - 02:52 .

[iamweaver]

RDSFirebane wrote...

iamweaver wrote...


What???

You never promised to save everyone.  In fact, the game story constantly reminds you that you cannot save everybody.  What you promised to do (feel free to look up dialogues on Youtube if you've forgotten) is to "stop the reapers".

And how in heaven's name does refusal allow anyone to save themselves?  You already know the galaxy is lost unless this Crucible McGuffin is used.  You are it's "last, best hope". So once you walk away from the responsibilities that you said you took on, you doomed everyone to eventually die.

I get the feeling you arnt understanding me lol.

Ok so you didnt promise to save everyone so they are all following you in hopes you'll just save the human race right? um no their hopeing you can save all of them that you can put a end to the reapers.

In Destroy, you save all the races but the Geth, who are the ONLY race that actually gave you permission, all of them, to utilize them to stop the reapers.  They are fighting a war - and guess what?  Just as you personally, in game, have done before, sometimes some soldiers have to die in order to achieve a victory, or even to minimize losses.  For example, that's why you allowed the Asari commandoes to die in the Thessia mission, and the Krogan platoon to die holding back the Reapers in the racni mission (well, assuming that you let the queen live). I'm sure that the Geth would rather live - but they told you they were willing to die if need be, assuming that you don't think that Legion is lying.

I said gave them the chance Shep has no clue whats going to happen that's how I decided by my shep I'm sorry are all of you takeing this personaly? I was pretty sure it was just a game and am standing by how my character felt.

Shep certainly should have a clue what's going to happen.  I understand that you personally might have missed the information presented to you in game - but what you do know I already outlined earlier.  Every planet but Palaven and Tuchanka is completely overrun by reapers - so there's no industrial base left.  Tuchanka has no industrial base, and Palaven is doomed to fall, despite having both of the best fighting races working together.  And your entire fleet is right here, mousetrapped by the Reapers.  Sure, it's a deliberate mousetrap; Hackett sent in his men, knowing that they would all die if the Crucible didn't do its job.  He told you that the fleet could hold off the reapers long enough to ferry the crucible in, and that the Sword fleet could protect the Hammer troops long enough to make a run at the beam.  But Hammer is now gone.


I'm not taking it personally. I am pointing out that what you say goes against what your character knows in game, and againt what you personally know using metagaming.

There are lots of ways to justify the "refuse" option - but none of them relies on the Starkid being truthful.

[incinerator950]

pirate1802 wrote...

Looks like controllers, destroyers and synthesizers all hate refusal equally

I don't hate it, I'm just open about admitting it is fan pandering to those who don't want to make the decision that is freely given to them to make the war end.  On lower EMS, the Catalyst openly admits its disdain in allowing you to take Control or Destroy. 

[RDSFirebane]

Seival wrote...

Soon after facing strong vocal opposition to the endings, lead writer stated that Mass Relays were destroyed forever and Galactic Civilization will find new ways for interstellar travel. But some of us were understanding that was not truth. And then there was EC release.

This is called Damage Control. BioWare don't want people to become very disappointed. They prepare them for understanding. Sometimes giving them "false confirmations" before saying the truth, or avoid saying the truth officially like in case of "IT". "IT" was debunked, but BioWare didn't kill "IT" fans' desire do delude themselves.

and you want me to do what with this? um guess we can talk when something comes out to prove what I said is wrong I think that is where u are going with this?