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Simple way to fix Sniping with Shotguns

Débuté par Guest_Air Quotes_* , juil. 30 2012 05:52

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#176
Guest_Air Quotes_*
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 09:31

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Bolo Xia wrote...

i can see your concern with your side of the argument too.

i dont know what is best to do about this situation either.
maybe i just feel too strongly the other way on nerfing to much to accept what you are proposing.

i really do understand the "why's" of your arguments.
if the solution you put forth works then cheers, my main concern is BW doing such a nerf that it also destroys other things unintentionally.

anyway i said my peace and both sides of the argument feel strongly that each side is the right one.
if i am right or wrong does not matter much, the main purpose i am posting is to counter argue so my side of the fence is heard as well.
if the situation is indeed bad enough for change to come, then it is warranted.

good day, thanks for keeping the debate civilized :)


My pleasure :) That's all I want. Nice discussion and suggestions. And maybe we will figure something out. Would be great if Bioware devs could help or give some opinions. 

#177
Rokayt
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 09:31

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Air Quotes wrote...

Rokayt wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

heybigmoney wrote...

Not disagreeing, but accuracy bonuses would be made pretty much worthless.


For a SHOTGUN ONLY. Other weapons - fine. 

Can't we just fix the way that the bonuses are applied?


There are ways to do it. I'm willing to hear them. And hope Bioware will listen. :happy:

Then acknowledge them, don't simply defend your own theories without considering the other options. Standing alone gets us nowhere, and a lot of people have pointed out adjustments to your solution, or entierly new solutions that have different strengths and weaknesses (Namely, ones that would be far more fair to the community then TOTAL EXCLUSION.)

#178
Omega2079
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 09:33

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Air Quotes wrote...

Omega2079 wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

chielhier313 wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

chielhier313 wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

chielhier313 wrote...

Here`s a solution for you- leave it alone


Yeah. And keep getting weapon nerfs? No Thanks.

They will get nerfed, and then buffed. I like it as much as the troll store.Posted Image


We are getting weapon nerfs because GI's/Desroyers make them way too good. And people play GI's on Gold/Platinum. And beat those difficulties too easily. And then get weapons nerfed. Instead of tweaking the GI. So you get one weapon nerfed today, another one tomorrow. 

Aah, i see it now.
Bioware is jealous at the elitist who can do a solo run on platinum and therefore nerfing all the nice new gunsPosted Image


Elistist get bored of owning the game with the most powerful classes. So they get them nerfed with Biowares help. True.


Fighting bots really isn't that challenging. The game's mecanics just don't lend well to it being challenging.

All that's left is competing for kills. That makes some additional incentives, like a Krogan's high life and shields pointless on the high end of performance.

The nature of the game makes it so it will never be balanced on the high end.


It will NEVER be balanced. True. Nerfers will ALWAYS find something to nerf, powers, grenades, weapons. Whatever. 

But we COULD try and make those nerfs less severe. Of course - it's largely Bioware's fault too for giving us weapons such as Krysae. And for giving us Gi's that makes weapons like Krysae GODLY. 

What I would do when making a weapons dependent class is - If I give it ROF I would't give it accuracy or damage. If I give it damage I would not give it ROF or accuracy. Bioware just packs all 3 with huge ammounts and that way make a good weapon do 300% more damage. OF COURSE IT'S GONNA BE OP! AND OF COURSE IT'S GONNA GET NERFED!

Posted Image


You're just giving the nerfers more momentum.

#179
Iskar Jarak
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 09:34

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Air Quotes wrote...
The Drell Vnaguard + Eagle on Platinum was a joke :lol: I can't solo Platinum with any char probably. I can solo Gold however. And lemme tell you - it's a LOT easier and faster with something like GI + shotgun, than something like Drell Adept.  


The best player I ever played with was a Drell Adept.  He scored 189k with one BEFORE grenade capacity mods existed.  The very next match, he played a claymore weilding Krogan Sentinal (on gold, mind you), and scored just a couple hundred points behind the GI on the team.

The point is, the Drell Adept is one of the best classes in the game, it just takes more skill to reach his potential than the more weapon dependent classes.

#180
Guest_Air Quotes_*
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 09:36

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[quote]Iskar Jarak wrote...

[quote]heybigmoney wrote...

[quote]Air Quotes wrote...

[quote]heybigmoney wrote...

[quote]Air Quotes wrote...

[quote]heybigmoney wrote...

Not disagreeing, but accuracy bonuses would be made pretty much worthless. [/quote]

For a SHOTGUN ONLY. Other weapons - fine. [/quote]

I understand.  But shotguns benefit the most.  Revenant isn't good.  Maybe the hurricane but realistically on the classes that can boost accuracy smgs are underperforming compared to other options.  Only the typhoon would benefit which would pigeonhole accuracy builds.

[/quote]

Its more likely bioware just nerfs the pirannha and calls it a day.

[/quote]

Even though Air Quotes keeps trying to deflect all the Pirahna nerfrage onto GIs and Destroyers, the Pirahna WILL get nerfed, not that I want it to.

 I really don't think BW pays that much attention to all the winging and crying that goes on here in the forums.  Like anyone with even a modicum of intelligence, BW realizes that we're just the vocal minority here.  What they DO pay attention to is usage statistics.  Infiltrators got nerfed because one third of all Gold players were playing infiltrators.  The Pirahna will get nerfed because everyone and their grandmother is using the Pirahna now.  It's pretty much better than everything else on just about all builds, and the usage statistics will show that.

That being said, I love my Pirahna, and I'll be sad when the nerf bat hits.
[/quote]

The statistics alone don't influence such urgent nerfs. Look how much time it took to get infiltrators nerfed! Months! What gets urgent attention are the threads here. NERF threads. And they listen to them because it's their business. If everyone's beating their game on the toughest difficulties even with the most powerful builds - they lose profit. 

#181
Guest_Air Quotes_*
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 09:40

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Iskar Jarak wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...
The Drell Vnaguard + Eagle on Platinum was a joke :lol: I can't solo Platinum with any char probably. I can solo Gold however. And lemme tell you - it's a LOT easier and faster with something like GI + shotgun, than something like Drell Adept.  


The best player I ever played with was a Drell Adept.  He scored 189k with one BEFORE grenade capacity mods existed.  The very next match, he played a claymore weilding Krogan Sentinal (on gold, mind you), and scored just a couple hundred points behind the GI on the team.

The point is, the Drell Adept is one of the best classes in the game, it just takes more skill to reach his potential than the more weapon dependent classes.


Yeah I know. Take a Falcon/Slap Cryo 4, team up up with a Vanguard or another mass detonator. Reave, Falcon stagger, clusters. Job done! 150k on Gold and up.

There. You can create a thread on how reave needs to get nerfed, clusters nerfed, grenade gear removed and Falcon nerfed again. :lol: 

#182
Cayse
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 09:41

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You don't come off elitist very often, Air.. but in this thread you are just about the avatar of it.

#183
Iskar Jarak
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 09:44

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Air Quotes wrote...

The statistics alone don't influence such urgent nerfs. Look how much time it took to get infiltrators nerfed! Months! What gets urgent attention are the threads here. NERF threads. And they listen to them because it's their business. If everyone's beating their game on the toughest difficulties even with the most powerful builds - they lose profit. 


2 things:

1.  It was the rise of the Krysae that skewed the usage statistics in favor of the infiltrators.  The usage statistic was even mentioned to be the reason they were looking at balancing TC in the first place.

2.  Everyone is NOT beating their game on the toughest difficulties by using the most powerful builds.  I'm a decent player, and I've yet to beat platinum.  I even use the Destroyer and GI fairly regularly.  Even that isn't enough for me to carry a bad team through most gold games, let alone platinum.  If you really want to discuss nerfing the GI and Destroyer, you first need to prove your original premise:  That people are using them to easily power through the game.  If not proven, everything you're saying is based on a straw man argument, and therefore, discounted.

#184
PRC_Heavy_Z
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 09:45

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Cayse wrote...

You don't come off elitist very often, Air.. but in this thread you are just about the avatar of it.


Didn't realize being self-defeating and seemingly foolish can come off as being elitist

#185
Cayse
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 09:46

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Do people still actually believe that Bioware balances the game based on forum posts?

#186
Guest_Air Quotes_*
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 09:46

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Cayse wrote...

You don't come off elitist very often, Air.. but in this thread you are just about the avatar of it.


How come? :blink:

#187
Cayse
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 09:47

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Air Quotes wrote...

Cayse wrote...

You don't come off elitist very often, Air.. but in this thread you are just about the avatar of it.


How come? :blink:


"I can do it so it's easy for everyone."

Guess what. You solo platinum. You have a very poor perspective on what "everyone" can do. What you can do is definitely not easy for everyone. What you think takes zero skill definitely takes skill.

#188
Guest_Air Quotes_*
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 09:47

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Iskar Jarak wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

The statistics alone don't influence such urgent nerfs. Look how much time it took to get infiltrators nerfed! Months! What gets urgent attention are the threads here. NERF threads. And they listen to them because it's their business. If everyone's beating their game on the toughest difficulties even with the most powerful builds - they lose profit. 


2 things:

1.  It was the rise of the Krysae that skewed the usage statistics in favor of the infiltrators.  The usage statistic was even mentioned to be the reason they were looking at balancing TC in the first place.

2.  Everyone is NOT beating their game on the toughest difficulties by using the most powerful builds.  I'm a decent player, and I've yet to beat platinum.  I even use the Destroyer and GI fairly regularly.  Even that isn't enough for me to carry a bad team through most gold games, let alone platinum.  If you really want to discuss nerfing the GI and Destroyer, you first need to prove your original premise:  That people are using them to easily power through the game.  If not proven, everything you're saying is based on a straw man argument, and therefore, discounted.



You didn't see GI's with Claymores destroying Platinum video? GI's with Piranhas? 
GI's with Krysaes was plenty too.

#189
Guest_Air Quotes_*
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 09:50

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Cayse wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

Cayse wrote...

You don't come off elitist very often, Air.. but in this thread you are just about the avatar of it.


How come? :blink:


"I can do it so it's easy for everyone."

Guess what. You solo platinum. You have a very poor perspective on what "everyone" can do. What you can do is definitely not easy for everyone. What you think takes zero skill definitely takes skill.


I CAN'T solo PLATINUM! I didn't even try. It's too boring and it's NOT MASS EFFECT for ME anymore!

But I know that the second I picked up GI + GPS and later GI + Claymore I started putting HUGE numbers on the board. Like I could score 120k with an AA before. But dayyyyum! GI + Claymore = 150k+ AVERAGE without even trying hard!

Modifié par Air Quotes, 30 juillet 2012 - 09:51 .

#190
Iskar Jarak
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 09:52

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Air Quotes wrote...

Iskar Jarak wrote...

Air Quotes wrote...

The statistics alone don't influence such urgent nerfs. Look how much time it took to get infiltrators nerfed! Months! What gets urgent attention are the threads here. NERF threads. And they listen to them because it's their business. If everyone's beating their game on the toughest difficulties even with the most powerful builds - they lose profit. 


2 things:

1.  It was the rise of the Krysae that skewed the usage statistics in favor of the infiltrators.  The usage statistic was even mentioned to be the reason they were looking at balancing TC in the first place.

2.  Everyone is NOT beating their game on the toughest difficulties by using the most powerful builds.  I'm a decent player, and I've yet to beat platinum.  I even use the Destroyer and GI fairly regularly.  Even that isn't enough for me to carry a bad team through most gold games, let alone platinum.  If you really want to discuss nerfing the GI and Destroyer, you first need to prove your original premise:  That people are using them to easily power through the game.  If not proven, everything you're saying is based on a straw man argument, and therefore, discounted.



You didn't see GI's with Claymores destroying Platinum video? GI's with Piranhas? 
GI's with Krysaes was plenty too.


No, I didn't actually, and, while I don't doubt these videos exist, I sincerely doubt the players involved represent the vast majority of players out there.  Just because the elite among us can trivialize the game doesn't mean the rest of us can.

#191
SilentCO1
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 09:52

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You can use a sniper at short range. Why can't I use a shotgun at long range? They're just better at their corresponding range.

Unless they make it so snipers do no damage within a certain range, I say no. And because nerfing is evil.

#192
heybigmoney
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 09:54

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Cayse wrote...

Do people still actually believe that Bioware balances the game based on forum posts?


The tactical cloak nerf was heavily influenced by the BALANCE ALL THE THINGS group on this very forum.

#193
budzai
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 09:55

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BW's favorite weapons are shotguns and pistols. These two class will be the best always, and the players who always use these can be happy and think they are skilled...

#194
Iskar Jarak
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 09:56

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heybigmoney wrote...

Cayse wrote...

Do people still actually believe that Bioware balances the game based on forum posts?


The tactical cloak nerf was heavily influenced by the BALANCE ALL THE THINGS group on this very forum.


How do you know this?

#195
Cayse
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 09:56

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heybigmoney wrote...

Cayse wrote...

Do people still actually believe that Bioware balances the game based on forum posts?


The tactical cloak nerf was heavily influenced by the BALANCE ALL THE THINGS group on this very forum.


The specific mechanic was from the thread, but they decided they wanted to nerf the ability all on their own like good little developers. They also adopted a ton of buffs from that thread. Why? Because the people who post in it post intelligently, concisely, and without hyperbole.

#196
Guest_Air Quotes_*
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 09:57

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SilentCO1 wrote...

You can use a sniper at short range. Why can't I use a shotgun at long range? They're just better at their corresponding range.

Unless they make it so snipers do no damage within a certain range, I say no. And because nerfing is evil.


Have you tried quickscoping that Marauder that's unloading his Phaeston at you at close range?  Not that easy. And if he has shields and it's Gold+ that means you will have to shoot him twice even if first shot was a headshot. if you try to hip fire - accuracy is terribad and you get reduced damage from the rifle for doing that. 

With Claymore - bang! Headshot or not - dead. From range - bang - dead. With Piranha or Wraith - same. Just a few more bangs. 

#197
TheKillerAngel
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 10:00

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If you kill accuracy buffs for martial classes you hurt the viability of the Turian soldier even more.

#198
Iskar Jarak
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 10:02

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budzai wrote...

BW's favorite weapons are shotguns and pistols. These two class will be the best always, and the players who always use these can be happy and think they are skilled...


See!  Now THAT"s how you sound elitist.  AIR QUOTES just thinks that if something is easy for him (her?), then it must be easy for everyone.  budzai, on the other hand, does a marvelous job of sounding superior to everyone (if not everyone, at least those silly pistol and shotgun users).

#199
Guest_Air Quotes_*
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 10:03

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TheKillerAngel wrote...

If you kill accuracy buffs for martial classes you hurt the viability of the Turian soldier even more.


For shotgun sniping - yeah. He would be still good with anything else. 

Also who said we can't buff the Turian is some other way? Give him a roll maybe? 

#200
heybigmoney
Posté 30 juillet 2012 - 10:04

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Iskar Jarak wrote...

heybigmoney wrote...

Cayse wrote...

Do people still actually believe that Bioware balances the game based on forum posts?


The tactical cloak nerf was heavily influenced by the BALANCE ALL THE THINGS group on this very forum.


How do you know this?


Mods have posted in group discussions that they were monitoring the suggestions made, and then closely emulated them afterwards with balance updates.  Unfortunately they only went half way and didn't fully commit to the proposed changes and we now have watergun sniper rifles.
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