80611 réponses à ce sujet

[jojon2se]

@BleedingUranium:

Fair enough. Everything any of us has to say is speculation and may for all we know remain so, if things are still left open when the DLC cycle ends.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

jojon2se wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...
Sure, Shepard makes the active choice to let everyone in the Galaxy die, including the Geth/EDI/other synthetics! Why then, is Refuse better?
...

Am I talking with a literalist, all of a sudden?

The scene is metaphorical, remember?

...and even if it wasn't; You give everyone in the galaxy a chance to fight (and at the very least work to prepare the next cycle), on their own terms, as much as they can given the situation forced upon them by the Reapers (not Shepard).
The galaxy doesn't just end the second you refuse, even given the crippling losses the fleet is bound to suffer in any attempt to retreat -- the three colours are what offer the apparent insta-solutions.

Earth is all or nothing, there is no second fleet, no second weapon. We defeat them at Earth or we face a slow death as the Reapers destroy us little by little. That is the odds set up when we head to Earth. In Anderson´s words: "There can be no stepping back, no retreat."

Also Shepard refusing to believe something is impossible does not equal the refuse ending. Despite what Shepard might say in the refuse ending, despite his/her pretty words about it beeing on our own terms, it is only death on our own terms, not survival. If Shepard dosent take action, finds a way, then everyone dies, that is the fact.

[RavenEyry]

Best anti-refuse thingumy I've seen was this one from ages ago:

Arian Dynas wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

The voice change, as well as giving you a big clue to Mr. Sparkle's true
identity, also shows how angry he is that you wouldn't make a choice. He's
supposedly been doing this cycle for millions of years, but now he's bigging up
synthesis and getting upset if you let the cycle continue.

My interpretation is Harby gets very angry that you wont play his little game.

Not even that.

He's angry that he ruined the target.

Destroy is him going "Oh, well fine then. Be that way, have your little
tantrum. I WILL have you, soon enough. I can be patient."

Refuse? Refuse means he's broken Shepard.

Shepard by nature is a man of action. Every option you are given, Paragon or
Renegade? You still are taking an action. Only the neutral options let you opt
out, they never turn out well, and they removed them in ME3. Paragon and
Renegade are both still heroes, their methods and motivations vary, but they do
share the same goals, Paragon is not good, merely charming and peaceable.
Likewise Renegade is not evil, merely violent and direct.

Shepard always has a goal. Always. For three games it was "Destroy the
Reapers and damn the consequences, this war WILL have casualties."

And now we have Shepard going "I don't want to be their killer, so I am
going to let everyone die just so I don't have to do something I perceive as
immoral." That's not Shepard. It might not necessarily be wrong, but it's
not Shepard. Even if Destroy was the only option, Shepard would STILL take an
option.

Bill Casey's sig puts it pretty well. Shepard is not a hero or a messiah. He's
a soldier.

Harbinger WANTS Shepard. He wants Shepard exactly as he is. He isn't looking
for "Not-Shepard" choosing Refuse, Shepard has chosen not to commit
one way or another, to opt out. Refuse means he has lost his determination, his
necessary drive that was an integral part of him. He lost the part of himself
that Harbinger wanted. He's useless to them now. What's more, he's a
frustration. Somehow, in the final moment, not only did he deny Harbinger his
prize, he also denied him further methods of acquiring it.

It would be like just before crossing the finish line, watching someone not
only run off with your trophy, but also break it so you couldn't posess it.

EDIT: Wacky formatting. Should've saved it in notead.

Modifié par RavenEyry, 23 septembre 2012 - 05:44 .

[jojon2se]

@Raistlin Majare 1992:

So, we'll just agree to disagree, then? You have your conclusions and I have mine.

I'm sure we are used enough to people whose minds are closed to possibilites, that we know not to perpetrate the same.

EDIT: ...and I do not agree with that analysis either, RavenEyry.

Modifié par jojon2se, 23 septembre 2012 - 05:49 .

[BleedingUranium]

[quote]RavenEyry wrote...

Best anti-refuse thingumy I've seen was this one from ages ago:

[quote]Arian Dynas wrote...

*Blarg.*[/quote]

I was going to mention that, but I figured it was only a matter of time before someone else did better than I would have

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 23 septembre 2012 - 05:47 .

[BleedingUranium]

Okay everyone, time for a choice:

Left - Centre - Right

[estebanus]

Hello people. What's going on?

[byne]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Okay everyone, time for a choice:

Left - Centre - Right

I would have chose right but that class sucks, so I gotta pick the xbox controller. It will turn me into my avatar and I shall control every character in every xbox game ever.

[demersel]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Okay everyone, time for a choice:

Left - Centre - Right

Ha-ha! Brilliant! Destroy IS the right choice! 

[Home run MF]

byne wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Okay everyone, time for a choice:

Left - Centre - Right

I would have chose right but that class sucks, so I gotta pick the xbox controller. It will turn me into my avatar and I shall control every character in every xbox game ever.

Wait, what? 

[RavenEyry]

I know nothing of classes beyond the big six.

[byne]

Home run MF wrote...

byne wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Okay everyone, time for a choice:

Left - Centre - Right

I would have chose right but that class sucks, so I gotta pick the xbox controller. It will turn me into my avatar and I shall control every character in every xbox game ever.

Wait, what? 

Well, it doesnt suck, I just dont care for it

[Home run MF]

byne wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

byne wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Okay everyone, time for a choice:

Left - Centre - Right

I would have chose right but that class sucks, so I gotta pick the xbox controller. It will turn me into my avatar and I shall control every character in every xbox game ever.

Wait, what? 

Well, it doesnt suck, I just dont care for it

I tried your novaguard build, thanks, but they're definitely not my class. 

[byne]

Home run MF wrote...

byne wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

byne wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Okay everyone, time for a choice:

Left - Centre - Right

I would have chose right but that class sucks, so I gotta pick the xbox controller. It will turn me into my avatar and I shall control every character in every xbox game ever.

Wait, what? 

Well, it doesnt suck, I just dont care for it

I tried your novaguard build, thanks, but they're definitely not my class. 

You've gotta be host for it to work out well for you.

[Lokanaiya]

Here's one of my posts from a while back that shows why I think Refuse might be the right option:

Lokanaiya wrote...

Regarding the debate about whether or not Refuse is a good option, I just want to throw in my two cents and say that in Refuse, you're essentially telling the Reapers that no matter what, you will NEVER compromise with them and NEVER accept their values, even if that means the entire galaxy is screwed. In Destroy however, you stay true to your purpose of ending the Reaper threat once and for all, even if you have to accept one of their options. Yes, Refuse is incredibly stupid. Yes, Destroy is the only option that actually kills all the Reapers.

In Destroy, however, you reveal you have an ultimate purpose-- You want to save the entire galaxy, and especially this cycle. You're even willing to accept one of the self-proclaimed leader of the Reapers' options to do this. It's not much, but a purpose is something that the Reapers, master manipulators that they are, can work with and turn to their advantage. You gave them a fingerhold, and if they can just turn your purpose to their advantage, somehow, you're indoctrinated.

Reject, on the other hand, is a bull-headed, stubborn option that says that you will never, EVER compromise with the Reapers at all. You reject everything they are and everything they say. You are willing to let the entire galaxy die if it just means that you never give anything, anything at all, to the Reapers. Selfish, yes. Ideological, yes. Mind-blowingly stupid, definitely. But what you reveal to the Reapers is that you will never compromise, never give an inch, to them.

That's different than what you try to do in Destroy. In Destroy, you want a better future for everyone AND will compromise with the Reapers, just a little, and accept one of their options if it means a better future for your LI, your squadmates, and everyone you know and love. Sound familiar?

In Reject, your ultimate purpose is no surrender, no retreat, NO COMPROMISE with the Reapers. Incredibly bull-headed, but maybe that's what it takes to defeat indoctrination. An undying conviction to have nothing to do with the Reapers, no matter what.

Please note that this does not mean I think that Refuse is the only correct option; I'm actually on the fence about it and am just suggesting a possible way of looking at it that nobody else seems to mention.

Also, regarding Arian's post, wouldn't a "broken" Shepard (if that's what Shepard becomes after Refuse, which I don't buy) be better for the Reapers than an indoctrinated Shepard in some ways? After all, if he was indoctrinated and people found out, Shepard would essentially become a martyr who fought indoctrination for years and until the bitter end, so in the memory of the real Shepard, go out there and kill some Reapers! A depressed and broken but non-indoctrinated Shepard, however, would make everyone else depressed. After all, Shepard is the biggest figure in the whole fight against the Reapers, the one who has done impossible things and united the whole galaxy, and if he's broken, despairing, and honestly doesn't believe that we can do anything against the Reapers, that we've already lost, what hope do we have?

[spotlessvoid]

I think an indoctrinated Shepard would terrify people into thinking "if even he fell, what hope do we have"

[BleedingUranium]

SwobyJ wrote...

A possible redirect to a pet theory of mine. Who knows? - writers could talk to other writers... "I was born in London"...

Doctor Who Strangeness (Dr Who & ME3 spoilers):
social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/14224265

Woah. Weiiiiiiiird!

[BleedingUranium]

Lokanaiya wrote...

*snip*

Harbinger wants Shepard because he has that thing that will make people follow him into hell, as Miranda puts it. He's a leader, the best leader, he does what people think impossible, and he never gives up or gives in.

Harbinger wants to indoctrinate you (via Control/Synthesis), but he's not as mad about Destroy because, while he hasn't converted Shepard yet, Shepard's still doing what he's always done, he's still the awesome Shepard that he wants on his side.

By picking refuse, no matter how you played your Shepard, you're failing to do what Shepard is known for, which is to act, and to do the impossible. Basically, you didn't live up to what Harbinger thought you were, and he's pissed because he wasted his time.

[Lokanaiya]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I think an indoctrinated Shepard would terrify people into thinking "if even he fell, what hope do we have"

Maybe. I guess I could see it going either way. But what I'm really thinking is that Anderson or some other leader would say what I just talked about there.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

I disagree that Destroy is a choice presented by the Catalyst.

Its words are: "I know you have thought about destroying us."

It is acknowledging what Shepard always came to do and that the possibility is there, not presenting the option. He then tries to guide you away from this option by putting it in a negative light.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 23 septembre 2012 - 07:03 .

[401 Kill]

SwobyJ wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

I disagree that Destroy is a choice presented by the Catalyst.

Its words are: "I know you have thought about destroying us."

It is acknowledging what Shepard always came to do and that the possibility is there, not presenting the option. He then tries to guide you away from this option by putting it in a negative light.

Agreed.

If this is a recreation of the mind, Destroy HAS to exist as a viable option, or else the illusion is not perfect.

Remember, If you have low EMS and saved the collector base, the catalyst says something along the lines of "I know you've thought about controlling us." I believe I've seen that line on a YouTube video.

[BleedingUranium]

401 Kill wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

I disagree that Destroy is a choice presented by the Catalyst.

Its words are: "I know you have thought about destroying us."

It is acknowledging what Shepard always came to do and that the possibility is there, not presenting the option. He then tries to guide you away from this option by putting it in a negative light.

Agreed.

If this is a recreation of the mind, Destroy HAS to exist as a viable option, or else the illusion is not perfect.

Remember, If you have low EMS and saved the collector base, the catalyst says something along the lines of "I know you've thought about controlling us." I believe I've seen that line on a YouTube video.

For that though, you've already proved you'd control over destroying in the past, and you have to pretty terrible to get that low EMS anyway. Though I've never tried to get the lowest EMS possible, I'd expect you could only realistically get it by meta gaming, like Shep dying (again) in ME2.