80611 réponses à ce sujet

[BleedingUranium]

SwobyJ wrote...

401 Kill wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

I disagree that Destroy is a choice presented by the Catalyst.

Its words are: "I know you have thought about destroying us."

It is acknowledging what Shepard always came to do and that the possibility is there, not presenting the option. He then tries to guide you away from this option by putting it in a negative light.

Agreed.

If this is a recreation of the mind, Destroy HAS to exist as a viable option, or else the illusion is not perfect.

Remember, If you have low EMS and saved the collector base, the catalyst says something along the lines of "I know you've thought about controlling us." I believe I've seen that line on a YouTube video.

I actually think Control is a viable option.

It's just really messed up and dangerous. The series tends to steer us toward the path of Destroy (Reapers), but leaves openings for us to pick Control stuff, and almost always with a sinister air to it, even if it is for a greater good.

What it never did was encourage outright synthesis between organics and synthetics. Co-operation, absolutely. Incorporation (some implants, personality programming, etc), sure! Pure synthesis, *DANGER DANGER*.

While I don't share the opinion of "viable option", I agree with it being waaaay better than thinking Synthesis is good. Remember, the Collectors are the Prothean Cerberus, and the General is presumably the Prothean TIM. Bit of Fridge Irony there

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 23 septembre 2012 - 07:24 .

[Lokanaiya]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

*snip*

Harbinger wants Shepard because he has that thing that will make people follow him into hell, as Miranda puts it. He's a leader, the best leader, he does what people think impossible, and he never gives up or gives in.

Harbinger wants to indoctrinate you (via Control/Synthesis), but he's not as mad about Destroy because, while he hasn't converted Shepard yet, Shepard's still doing what he's always done, he's still the awesome Shepard that he wants on his side.

By picking refuse, no matter how you played your Shepard, you're failing to do what Shepard is known for, which is to act, and to do the impossible. Basically, you didn't live up to what Harbinger thought you were, and he's pissed because he wasted his time.

Sorry if this sounds rude, but I'm trying to contribute a different perspective here and help IT come up with better reasons and go more into detail about refuse by playing devil's advocate. (Like I said, I'm actually undecided on this issue, although I am leaning more against refuse then for it) My point is, just repeating the same reasons over and over again is not all that helpful, and all of those points have been discussed time and time again, so can we please move on to other areas where the justification for Destroy is weaker? For instance, why accepting a solution presented by the leader of the Reapers and effectively compromising with them is better for resisting indoctrination than showing them that you will never accept their solutions, no matter what, even if it means the death of the entire cycle.

[TSA_383]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Okay everyone, time for a choice:

Left - Centre - Right

Centre, I'd love a nice analogue synth like that 

[BleedingUranium]

Lokanaiya wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Lokanaiya wrote...

*snip*

Harbinger wants Shepard because he has that thing that will make people follow him into hell, as Miranda puts it. He's a leader, the best leader, he does what people think impossible, and he never gives up or gives in.

Harbinger wants to indoctrinate you (via Control/Synthesis), but he's not as mad about Destroy because, while he hasn't converted Shepard yet, Shepard's still doing what he's always done, he's still the awesome Shepard that he wants on his side.

By picking refuse, no matter how you played your Shepard, you're failing to do what Shepard is known for, which is to act, and to do the impossible. Basically, you didn't live up to what Harbinger thought you were, and he's pissed because he wasted his time.

Sorry if this sounds rude, but I'm trying to contribute a different perspective here and help IT come up with better reasons and go more into detail about refuse by playing devil's advocate. (Like I said, I'm actually undecided on this issue, although I am leaning more against refuse then for it) My point is, just repeating the same reasons over and over again is not all that helpful, and all of those points have been discussed time and time again, so can we please move on to other areas where the justification for Destroy is weaker? For instance, why accepting a solution presented by the leader of the Reapers and effectively compromising with them is better for resisting indoctrination than showing them that you will never accept their solutions, no matter what, even if it means the death of the entire cycle.

Oh, that's fine. I think we were attempting to have two different kinds of discussions is all

[BleedingUranium]

SwobyJ wrote...

From the psychological standpoint, Refuse is HALF right. It has defiance towards the Reapers, cool, but it doesn't have the drive that Shepard has always had  against his enemies.

It's like facing Saren and going "Crap, he's at the console and the Reapers are now coming. I did everything I could." but on a larger scale.

Destroy embodies the idea that if you can do something, you still DO it. Yes, you're always looking for a 'better way', but Refuse doesn't even offer that better way (for THIS cycle).

So yes, Destroy still compromises a bit with the enemy, and that's why imo we're not done this fight yet. Not by a long shot.

At the exact moment I was reading the line about Saren, Saren's theme started playing here

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 23 septembre 2012 - 07:32 .

[401 Kill]

Lokanaiya wrote...
For instance, why accepting a solution presented by the leader of the Reapers and effectively compromising with them is better for resisting indoctrination than showing them that you will never accept their solutions, no matter what, even if it means the death of the entire cycle.

I see:). I'm going to assume you are talking about Destroy (that is what you are talking about, right?). I've never viewed Destroy as "a solution presented by the leader of the Reapers", I personally feel like that was what the series was pushing for, so as an option in the descision chamber, it was more or less "Shepards choice". The Child tries to steer you away from picking that. By refusing, you are effectively stuck in the indoctrination attempt but not "resisting " it. Why would you sacrifice the entire cycle, just to make a point to the reapers? I hope that I understood your message about playing the devil's advocate correctly.

[Lokanaiya]

Very good points, both SwobyJ and 401 Kill. I honestly can't think up any acceptable arguments against them... I hadn't realize how much I stink at arguing against points I personally agree with. I'll let you know if I think of any arguments that I myself don't have an answer to, but it might be a while...

[spotlessvoid]

Lokanaiya wrote...

Very good points, both SwobyJ and 401 Kill. I honestly can't think up any acceptable arguments against them... I hadn't realize how much I stink at arguing against points I personally agree with. I'll let you know if I think of any arguments that I myself don't have an answer to, but it might be a while...

want the ultimate challenge? try arguing for synthesis. 

[spotlessvoid]

You know what would be funny? Is if in the mass effect movie there's a line making fun of Shepard driving the Mako like "Shepards driving? We're going to crash"

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

spotlessvoid wrote...

want the ultimate challenge? try arguing for synthesis. 

It...was a nice green color...

And...Shepards jump was pretty good...

[byne]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

want the ultimate challenge? try arguing for synthesis. 

It...was a nice green color...

And...Shepards jump was pretty good...

It also syncs up perfectly with this song. Clearly BioWare intended the space magic ending.

[Restrider]

spotlessvoid wrote...
want the ultimate challenge? try arguing for synthesis. 

Challange accepted!
Synthesis is the best choice, because everyone is friendly to each other and everyone cooperates. And since cooperation is the main theme of the entire series, synthesis is the best choice. And I like the colour green.

OT about refuse:
I am kind of disappointed. Yet you have this awesome speech at the end. It tops every other ending choice for me in this regard, since everything else is like
"But that kills the reapers?"
"TIM was right after all?"
"..." (I don't even know the lines for synthesis, lol!)
"epic refusal speech" (tied second with Hackett's speech in ME3 and right behind "HOLD THE LINE!")

I see where the whole negativity is coming from (of course that the cycle supposedly lost), especially the contradiction in the speech ("I tried everything to stop you... And if I die, I will die free." Yet, the destroy option if four bullets away.).
As I said earlier, I think refuse has potential in Puzzle Theory or as an IT ending, but as it is presented right now, it kind of has a sour note.

EDIT:
While I was watching the new purple ending, I had a thought about the stargazer scene.
Since the planet where the stargazer's live is supposedly the same planet the Normandy crashed on, were there any speculations pre-EC that the stargazer's might be decendants of the Normandy crew?

Modifié par Restrider, 23 septembre 2012 - 08:39 .

[byne]

Restrider wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...
want the ultimate challenge? try arguing for synthesis. 

Challange accepted!
Synthesis is the best choice, because everyone is friendly to each other and everyone cooperates. And since cooperation is the main theme of the entire series, synthesis is the best choice. And I like the colour green.

OT about refuse:
I am kind of disappointed. Yet you have this awesome speech at the end. It tops every other ending choice for me in this regard, since everything else is like
"But that kills the reapers?"
"TIM was right after all?"
"..." (I don't even know the lines for synthesis, lol!)
"epic refusal speech" (tied second with Hackett's speech in ME3 and right behind "HOLD THE LINE!")

I see where the whole negativity is coming from (of course that the cycle supposedly lost), especially the contradiction in the speech ("I tried everything to stop you... And if I die, I will die free." Yet, the destroy option if four bullets away.).
As I said earlier, I think refuse has potential in Puzzle Theory or as an IT ending, but as it is presented right now, it kind of has a sour note.

The refusal speech is great, and finally gives Shep a good speech for this game, since her speech at the FOB is pretty lame, but still, pretty speeches dont win wars.

I dont care how good her speech is in refuse, it still means she's choosing NOT to win the war when we have three options to do so right in front of us. WE may see it as Shep defying the Reapers and resisting indoctrination, but from her perspective, she doesnt know all of this isnt actually happening. She is simply presented with 3 paths to victory, and doesnt choose a single one.

That isnt how Shepard operates. It never has been. She would choose something.

[Hrothdane]

byne wrote...
It also syncs up perfectly with this song. Clearly BioWare intended the space magic ending.

I prefer A Kind of Magic for synthesis.

[BleedingUranium]

Hrothdane wrote...

byne wrote...
It also syncs up perfectly with this song. Clearly BioWare intended the space magic ending.

I prefer A Kind of Magic for synthesis.

Or this music!

[Rifneno]

Remember that cut dialogue clip from Portal where that woman was protesting during the Glados transformation and they wound up removing it because it sounded eerily like she was being raped? Another good audio for synthesis.

[spotlessvoid]

Hey bleedinguranium:

Banshee talked about a piece of evidence he hadn't brought up in the thread yet last night and it's completely slipped my mind.

One thing was the dream music playing if you pause right before Harby blast-just can't remember the other thing. Do you remember?

[spotlessvoid]

Rifneno wrote...

Remember that cut dialogue clip from Portal where that woman was protesting during the Glados transformation and they wound up removing it because it sounded eerily like she was being raped? Another good audio for synthesis.

How about the six-flags theme music? Same effect on the listener

[BleedingUranium]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Hey bleedinguranium:

Banshee talked about a piece of evidence he hadn't brought up in the thread yet last night and it's completely slipped my mind.

One thing was the dream music playing if you pause right before Harby blast-just can't remember the other thing. Do you remember?

Right, yes. In the pre-EC beam run (as you get lased in a cutscene now) you could, just like at any other point, pause the game by using the weapon or power wheel. All background audio, music and amibiant sounds, will continue to play while the game is paused like this.

Doing this right as you were getting lased by Harby revealed that, along with the hand-covering-face from the Geth Consensus and fade-to-white from both the Geth Consensus and the dreams, there is also dream music playing! Specifically the high-pitched angelic violin coupled with the dark low tone that plays when the burning kid cutscene starts in the dreams.

[spotlessvoid]

Thanks, but I meant the other thing banshee mentioned. The dream music thing was noticed in mark 1. I know I'm not giving you anything to go on lol, but it was something that made me say wow. I think it was during Rio-and it's not the flys thing

[BleedingUranium]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Thanks, but I meant the other thing banshee mentioned. The dream music thing was noticed in mark 1. I know I'm not giving you anything to go on lol, but it was something that made me say wow. I think it was during Rio-and it's not the flys thing

Hmm, Rio? I'm not at home or I'd ask him. I know he did a wall of text about Rio a while ago, and I think he reposted it recently, I'll look.

[spotlessvoid]

Sorry, it wasn't about Rio, it's while we were on that map

Thanks anyways, I'll ask him next time he is on.

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 23 septembre 2012 - 09:21 .

[BleedingUranium]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Sorry, it wasn't about Rio, it's while we were on that map

Thanks anyways, I'll ask him next time he is on.

Well good, I didn't find the wall of text anyway