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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#25301
munnellyladt

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byne wrote...

Restrider wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...
want the ultimate challenge? try arguing for synthesis. 

Challange accepted!
Synthesis is the best choice, because everyone is friendly to each other and everyone cooperates. And since cooperation is the main theme of the entire series, synthesis is the best choice. And I like the colour green.

OT about refuse:
I am kind of disappointed. Yet you have this awesome speech at the end. It tops every other ending choice for me in this regard, since everything else is like
"But that kills the reapers?"
"TIM was right after all?"
"..." (I don't even know the lines for synthesis, lol!)
"epic refusal speech" (tied second with Hackett's speech in ME3 and right behind "HOLD THE LINE!")

I see where the whole negativity is coming from (of course that the cycle supposedly lost), especially the contradiction in the speech ("I tried everything to stop you... And if I die, I will die free." Yet, the destroy option if four bullets away.).
As I said earlier, I think refuse has potential in Puzzle Theory or as an IT ending, but as it is presented right now, it kind of has a sour note.


The refusal speech is great, and finally gives Shep a good speech for this game, since her speech at the FOB is pretty lame, but still, pretty speeches dont win wars.

I dont care how good her speech is in refuse, it still means she's choosing NOT to win the war when we have three options to do so right in front of us. WE may see it as Shep defying the Reapers and resisting indoctrination, but from her perspective, she doesnt know all of this isnt actually happening. She is simply presented with 3 paths to victory, and doesnt choose a single one.

That isnt how Shepard operates. It never has been. She would choose something.

Personaly I don't get the refusal ending.
I mean the speech is great but the way shep talks about "deciding our own fate" makes no sense.
He is given 3 options,one of which he has wanted since the first game.And he decides to say screw it,I don't like any of these choices.
You most likely knew that there would be sacrifices to win,but what shep says in refusal, kind of suggests he expected the crucible tlo just destroy the reapers.
So he just decides to let everybody die?That does not sound like shep.

#25302
Bacteriophage

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...
...I personally like to place the choices in a sequence going from what i percieve as best choice to worst choice. My sequence on this is: Destroy, Reject, Control. Synthesis...

I have little doubt Destroy is the best option. It is hammered into your head repeatedly taht this war cannot be won without losses, without sacrifice, (just look at most of the conversations with garrus concerning Palavan and the "cold calculus of war" for an example) but that is what Control and Synthesis claim can be done. Everyone and their mother (almost) also tells you this in some form throughout the game...

Essentially going by my own belief that choosing Control or Synthesis might not be instant gameover Indoctrination of Shepard, but that certain events and choices in the past can save him, each choice would require progressively more drastic measures and/or greater losses to have Shepard break free.

But ultimately we just have to wait and see.

Prior to the EC, my hierarchy was {ctrl+alt+delete}, destroy, not worth considering.
The endings forced me into meta-analysis of the game. They forced me to ask questions about interpratation, authorial intent, and Player input and control. Part of the reason I love IT is that it provides a tool to players to look beyond the face value understanding of the ending choice.

I understand (I think) why one would order the choises into a hierarchy as you do. You're not picking 'the best' option, your picking the least bad one. This is a somewhat Utilitarian analysis and I understand why the Reject option would come up lacking in it.

But your right, the Game is stil being made...

BleedingUranium wrote...
But destroy plays to the themes throughout the series, "Victory through sacrifice" and "The right choice is usually not the easy one". Saving the council, Arrival, and most of ME3 come to mind. EDI and the Geth said they'd rather die than let the Reapers win, everyone who's not indoctrinated would. The only reason you're hesitating is because you're the one killing the Geth, which for me doesn't change the end result.

IT or literal, Refuse is giving up, and I think it's the last choice Shepard would pick. No matter how you play Shepard, Shepard is always the kind of person that does stuff, especially when it counts.

In a literal end, there's no reason to pick refuse whatsoever. There's also no reason to pick destroy, but even just between those two, either the Geth die, or the Geth and everyone else in the Galaxy dies.

In an IT end, the way I see it is Refuse is not being able to break out of the indoctrination attempt, but not falling for it either. It's pretty much exactly like getting stuck in Limbo in Inception. You're stuck in the dream, and never wake up. The mirror of the refuse end and a part from Leviathan reinforces this perspective.

I actually agree with you about EDI and the Geth. If you play paragon enough to uplift EDI, you get a statment of intent of sacrifice. You don't get quite that much with the Geth but if you save them you get an admission of sorts that freedom/autonomy is important. Even ignoring IT, these positions lead me to claim that Destroy is the true paragon option provided your Shepard is sufficiantly paragon.

I don't see Reject as giving up, rather I see it as refusing to play by the Brat's rules.
It's as if you hover up to him and he says, 'Suddenly I'm holding all the Aces!'; and you respond, 'Suddenly I'm not playing cards."

The Starchild has developed a very specific, rigid, and self-reenforcing understanding of how the universe works. Shepard isn't just a threat to the Child's existence, Shepard is a threat to its ideology and worldview (galaxyview?). For the first time in at least 37 million years, someone has the oppertunity to challenge it directly. To force it to confront any and all inconsistencies, circularisms, conciets or other erata in the very reason for its existence.

Imagine what could have been and could yet be if, through a series of conversation interupts backed by previous player choices, Shepard speechified the Brat into logical meltdown, forcing it to confront any and all inconsistencies, circularisms, conciets, and errata to the point where it couldn't hide from its own cognitive dissonence.

I don't know what would happen at that point. Maybe the Child's program would crash (apropriate given the crash issues I've had playing the game). Maybe it would come to the conclusion its purpose was complete or unfulfillable and shut down. Maybe all the Reaper ships would lose their (implied) AI shackles at once and detonate, or commit stellar suicide out of horror, or start fighting each other and everything else.

The closest we get to this is the Reject option. I like Reject for its meta-level implications, but I think Reject can work as a rational, though very dangerous, stratagy. It's a gamble of sorts that you can break the Catalyst through Force of Will, with the stakes raised to everything or nothing. No comprimise. No half-measures. Of course, it only works if you play the game 'in the moment' and ignore what you the Player already know abot the endings.

#25303
BansheeOwnage

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Hello.

#25304
Rifneno

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Ravagers should be in some Doom or Diablo esque game instead, named "scrotum demons." :(

#25305
BansheeOwnage

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BleedingUranium wrote...

Gotta love average people's misconceptions Posted Image

 (Top comment chain, I'm Snowstorm45)

Faceplams. Facepalms everywhere. Posted Image

#25306
Rifneno

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Oh for the love of God. I got a high resolution pic of a ravager to go with the scrotum demon joke for a friend on AIM. First time I've seen one up close, good pic, without it moving and me trying to not die. And I noticed something. ... The damn thing has blue, green, and red wires on the top. How many more places did they hide the three primaries?

#25307
BleedingUranium

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Gotta love average people's misconceptions Posted Image

 (Top comment chain, I'm Snowstorm45)

Faceplams. Facepalms everywhere. Posted Image


Respond the Spotless on the last page! Do it now!

#25308
BansheeOwnage

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Gwyphon wrote...

Lies upon lies! I knew I shouldn't have trusted the AI that was in charge of organic/AI's that were tasked with killing organics and synthetics so the synthetics don't kill organics.

LOL Why do people trust him??? Posted Image

#25309
spotlessvoid

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Rifneno wrote...

Oh for the love of God. I got a high resolution pic of a ravager to go with the scrotum demon joke for a friend on AIM. First time I've seen one up close, good pic, without it moving and me trying to not die. And I noticed something. ... The damn thing has blue, green, and red wires on the top. How many more places did they hide the three primaries?


Bunch of the monitors had that going right?

#25310
Rifneno

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Oh for the love of God. I got a high resolution pic of a ravager to go with the scrotum demon joke for a friend on AIM. First time I've seen one up close, good pic, without it moving and me trying to not die. And I noticed something. ... The damn thing has blue, green, and red wires on the top. How many more places did they hide the three primaries?


Bunch of the monitors had that going right?


Yeah.  There were a few other places where people noticed RBG easter eggs.

#25311
BansheeOwnage

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Rifneno wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Oh for the love of God. I got a high resolution pic of a ravager to go with the scrotum demon joke for a friend on AIM. First time I've seen one up close, good pic, without it moving and me trying to not die. And I noticed something. ... The damn thing has blue, green, and red wires on the top. How many more places did they hide the three primaries?


Bunch of the monitors had that going right?


Yeah.  There were a few other places where people noticed RBG easter eggs.

1M1

#25312
spotlessvoid

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

Gwyphon wrote...

Lies upon lies! I knew I shouldn't have trusted the AI that was in charge of organic/AI's that were tasked with killing organics and synthetics so the synthetics don't kill organics.

LOL Why do people trust him??? Posted Image


cuz he juss a widdle baby boy. kids never lie. 

#25313
BansheeOwnage

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@Spotlessvoid I actually can't remember if this was what you were talking about, but there was another piece of evidence I forgot to mention here. It supports IT and the puzzle theory.
Before the EC, the breath scene played after the credits; right before the stargazer scene.
After the EC, however, it plays right before the credits, and has its own piece of music and end scene. Logically that would take place before the credits in IT.

#25314
spotlessvoid

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

@Spotlessvoid I actually can't remember if this was what you were talking about, but there was another piece of evidence I forgot to mention here. It supports IT and the puzzle theory.
Before the EC, the breath scene played after the credits; right before the stargazer scene.
After the EC, however, it plays right before the credits, and has its own piece of music and end scene. Logically that would take place before the credits in IT.


thats a great point, but not what I meant. Hopefully I remember what it is because what you said was really interesting!

#25315
BansheeOwnage

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spotlessvoid wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

@Spotlessvoid I actually can't remember if this was what you were talking about, but there was another piece of evidence I forgot to mention here. It supports IT and the puzzle theory.
Before the EC, the breath scene played after the credits; right before the stargazer scene.
After the EC, however, it plays right before the credits, and has its own piece of music and end scene. Logically that would take place before the credits in IT.


thats a great point, but not what I meant. Hopefully I remember what it is because what you said was really interesting!

Ha, I hope I remember too. Posted Image

#25316
BleedingUranium

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

@Spotlessvoid I actually can't remember if this was what you were talking about, but there was another piece of evidence I forgot to mention here. It supports IT and the puzzle theory.
Before the EC, the breath scene played after the credits; right before the stargazer scene.
After the EC, however, it plays right before the credits, and has its own piece of music and end scene. Logically that would take place before the credits in IT.


thats a great point, but not what I meant. Hopefully I remember what it is because what you said was really interesting!

Ha, I hope I remember too. Posted Image


Arg! Posted Image

#25317
spotlessvoid

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Best I can remember was that it was regarding SP and in-game. I literally said "I have to remember this" but then I got distracted and you guys brought up like a million topics so it was hard to keep track of it all, I felt like an IT amateur haha. This is driving me nuts

#25318
401 Kill

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BleedingUranium wrote...

Arg! Posted Image

Was it posted last night? If it was you could just check what page it was on... Unless it was not posted on this topic...

#25319
BansheeOwnage

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401 Kill wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Arg! Posted Image

Was it posted last night? If it was you could just check what page it was on... Unless it was not posted on this topic...

We were talking about it on LIVE while doing the challenge.

Edit: Pretty funny how everyone is like "Wow, we should remember that" and everyone forgot it... Posted Image

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 23 septembre 2012 - 10:16 .


#25320
masster blaster

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

@Spotlessvoid I actually can't remember if this was what you were talking about, but there was another piece of evidence I forgot to mention here. It supports IT and the puzzle theory.
Before the EC, the breath scene played after the credits; right before the stargazer scene.
After the EC, however, it plays right before the credits, and has its own piece of music and end scene. Logically that would take place before the credits in IT.


thats a great point, but not what I meant. Hopefully I remember what it is because what you said was really interesting!

Ha, I hope I remember too. Posted Image


Um I don't think it was. I got it before teh credits started. I will find the video before the EC to make sure I am right about this.

www.youtube.com/watch

here it is.

Modifié par masster blaster, 23 septembre 2012 - 10:18 .


#25321
zioninzion

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I just joined these forums and I have no idea if this was already pointed out before (apologies if it was) but I just finished ME3 and was watching the DLC ending of destroy (which I obviously chose if I was watching it) and I noticed that after you pick destroy and the final cinematics begin and you see the final fighting on the ground on Earth as the Reapers begin to explode, that Big Ben seems to get consumed by the explosion and seems to be destroyed. However, in the EC with the images during the narration, Big Ben has not been harmed at all.

As an IT believer, does this inconsistency also back up IT? I know we dont know how far in the future the still shots are but isn't it weird that Big Ben looks untouched after it was blasted to pieces?

Sorry if this comment is ignorant of already proved facts :)

#25322
BansheeOwnage

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masster blaster wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

@Spotlessvoid I actually can't remember if this was what you were talking about, but there was another piece of evidence I forgot to mention here. It supports IT and the puzzle theory.
Before the EC, the breath scene played after the credits; right before the stargazer scene.
After the EC, however, it plays right before the credits, and has its own piece of music and end scene. Logically that would take place before the credits in IT.


thats a great point, but not what I meant. Hopefully I remember what it is because what you said was really interesting!

Ha, I hope I remember too. Posted Image


Um I don't think it was. I got it before teh credits started. I will find the video before the EC to make sure I am right about this.

If I am wrong about that I would like confirmation. I still haven't made sure yet myself.

Edit: Crap! Oh well. It doesn't fit with the music but w/e.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 23 septembre 2012 - 10:20 .


#25323
401 Kill

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[quote]BansheeOwnage wrote...

[quote]401 Kill wrote...

[quote]BleedingUranium wrote...

Arg! Posted Image[/quote]Was it posted last night? If it was you could just check what page it was on... Unless it was not posted on this topic...
[/quote]
We were talking about it on LIVE while doing the challenge.

Edit: Pretty funny how everyone is like "Wow, we should remember that" and everyone forgot it... [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/pinched.png[/smilie].

#25324
masster blaster

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

@Spotlessvoid I actually can't remember if this was what you were talking about, but there was another piece of evidence I forgot to mention here. It supports IT and the puzzle theory.
Before the EC, the breath scene played after the credits; right before the stargazer scene.
After the EC, however, it plays right before the credits, and has its own piece of music and end scene. Logically that would take place before the credits in IT.


thats a great point, but not what I meant. Hopefully I remember what it is because what you said was really interesting!

Ha, I hope I remember too. Posted Image


Um I don't think it was. I got it before teh credits started. I will find the video before the EC to make sure I am right about this.

If I am wrong about that I would like confirmation. I still haven't made sure yet myself.

Edit: Crap! Oh well. It doesn't fit with the music but w/e.


Banshee here it is www.youtube.com/watch

#25325
BleedingUranium

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zioninzion wrote...

I just joined these forums and I have no idea if this was already pointed out before (apologies if it was) but I just finished ME3 and was watching the DLC ending of destroy (which I obviously chose if I was watching it) and I noticed that after you pick destroy and the final cinematics begin and you see the final fighting on the ground on Earth as the Reapers begin to explode, that Big Ben seems to get consumed by the explosion and seems to be destroyed. However, in the EC with the images during the narration, Big Ben has not been harmed at all.

As an IT believer, does this inconsistency also back up IT? I know we dont know how far in the future the still shots are but isn't it weird that Big Ben looks untouched after it was blasted to pieces?

Sorry if this comment is ignorant of already proved facts :)


Big Ben may or may not get destroyed in the cutscene depending on you EMS level, but if it always appears standing in the slide then yes, that's very strange Posted Image