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[Rifneno]

Hmm. I'm replaying ME1 and maybe I'm just being over suspicious, but Vigil is setting off some alarm bells with me. There's a weird echo whenever he says anything. Not sure what to make of that. Does any other character, synthetic or not, have some kind of echo when others don't?

What's really bothering me though is that he repeats what Shepard said to Sovereign. Shepard asks Sovereign what the Reapers want from people. "Slaves? Resources?" Sovereign of course replies that "My kind transcends your very understanding." When Shepard asks Vigil what the Reapers want, Vigil replies "Perhaps they need slaves or resources. More likely, they are driven by motives and goals organic beings cannot hope to comprehend." The answer is far, far too similar to Shepard's conversation with Sovereign for my tastes. The same two exact words are used, slaves and resources, before they go to the silly "beyond our comprehension" nonsense.

If something was up with Vigil, that would explain quite a few things. Why didn't Vigil mention that they were making soylent green out of the captured people? Or why he was there for 50,000 years but his batteries ran out just after talking to Shepard so Council investigators didn't find him. Or why monitoring a few sentences let Vigil speak perfect English for a full length conversation. Or why Vigil was perfectly fine for 50,000 but his hologram was a static mess (because Shepard had never seen a Prothean, so he couldn't put an image there, like the masked quarians in the geth consensus).

Of course I could be reading too much into it. Thoughts?

[spotlessvoid]

Very good observations Rifneno. The echo is going to be a relatively subjective thing but I'm at Virmire now (I'd pay $20 for a dlc allowing me to leave them both) so I'm going to have to YouTube it.

Your second point though is really interesting.
Obviously, your last paragraph makes a convenient and amateurish plot device into something deeper and fits the implications of your second point

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 25 septembre 2012 - 04:58 .

[BansheeOwnage]

Rifneno wrote...

Hmm. I'm replaying ME1 and maybe I'm just being over suspicious, but Vigil is setting off some alarm bells with me. There's a weird echo whenever he says anything. Not sure what to make of that. Does any other character, synthetic or not, have some kind of echo when others don't?

What's really bothering me though is that he repeats what Shepard said to Sovereign. Shepard asks Sovereign what the Reapers want from people. "Slaves? Resources?" Sovereign of course replies that "My kind transcends your very understanding." When Shepard asks Vigil what the Reapers want, Vigil replies "Perhaps they need slaves or resources. More likely, they are driven by motives and goals organic beings cannot hope to comprehend." The answer is far, far too similar to Shepard's conversation with Sovereign for my tastes. The same two exact words are used, slaves and resources, before they go to the silly "beyond our comprehension" nonsense.

If something was up with Vigil, that would explain quite a few things. Why didn't Vigil mention that they were making soylent green out of the captured people? Or why he was there for 50,000 years but his batteries ran out just after talking to Shepard so Council investigators didn't find him. Or why monitoring a few sentences let Vigil speak perfect English for a full length conversation. Or why Vigil was perfectly fine for 50,000 but his hologram was a static mess (because Shepard had never seen a Prothean, so he couldn't put an image there, like the masked quarians in the geth consensus).

Of course I could be reading too much into it. Thoughts?

A lot of those are (I think) just some plot devices. I don't think they had what the reapers wanted exactly planned out yet at that time, and they definitely didn't know what they wanted a prothean to look like yet. But Vendetta has some weird echoing going on that is extremely creepy. Listen to it next time you can.

Goodnight.

[Rifneno]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Very good observations Rifneno. The echo is going to be a relatively subjective thing but I'm at Virmire now (I'd pay $20 for a dlc allowing me to leave them both) so I'm going to have to YouTube it.

Your second point though is really interesting.
Obviously, your last paragraph makes a convenient and amateurish plot device into something deeper and fits the implications of your second point

"Saren: Sovereign recognizes your value. You've impressed it. Surrender to the Reapers and you will be spared. Join us and we can find a place for you."

Oh dear. There might really be something to this. Sovereign wanted Shepard indoctrinated. I noticed another couple of logical issues with Vigil. For one, he opens the conversation by saying Shepard isn't Prothean but isn't machine either and that this is one of the eventualities anticipated. Yet later in the conversation it's clear he already knew that the Protheans were very long dead. Later he claims they sent out the message about Ilos because they didn't yet understand indoctrination or that it could lead an agent of the Reapers there. Yet how did he find out that it could? He said :
- They only sent it after the Reaper retreated through the relay.
- That took hundreds of years and they knew it was unlikely any Protheans except those top scientists remained alive.
- Vigil had no contact with the scientists after they used the conduit to go to the Citadel to reprogram the Keepers.
In other words, if Vigil didn't know about indoctrination when they sent out the message, it had no way to ever find out. Yet not only does it know all about indoctrination, it claims to be able to sense it. lolwut.

The more I think about it, the more Vigil knows too many things it could not possibly know. ME1 still gets held up as an example of awesome writing. How could they have made so many amateur mistakes with Vigil? But then the question is, what really did happen in the Prothean cycle that gave the Reapers this hassle opening the Citadel relay? Did Sovereign put the pieces of the puzzle together itself and then let Vigil tell a mostly-true version thinking that the best lies are ones with some truth in them?

And this one is really out there, but it'll bother me if I don't voice it. Feel free to laugh it off. I remember an old theory back in the ME2 days that Sovereign had actually uploaded his mind into the Citadel while he had contact with it. Realizing he might fail, he uploaded a copy of his mind in case his physical form perished. Now if we assume that's possible, and you look at Sovereign's connection position to the Citadel, which is to say, exactly where the Crucible connects to the Citadel and roundabout where the decision chamber is... what if starbrat isn't Harbinger? What if he's Sovereign?

[Doommarine23]

Wow, this thread is still goin on? I thought interest died down, god do I have to catch up on reading.
Hate to be *that* guy, but where should I start? haven't poked at any of these threads since Extended Cut came out and I'm having an information overload with all this new stuff to read and analyze. Basically gotta start fresh since Extended Cut came out.

Inb4 dumm noob 

Modifié par Doommarine23, 25 septembre 2012 - 05:39 .

[spotlessvoid]

Doommarine23 wrote...

Wow, this thread is still goin on? I thought interest died down, god do I have to catch up on reading.
Hate to be *that* guy, but where should I start? haven't poked at any of these threads since Extended Cut came out and I'm having an information overload with all this new stuff to read and analyze. Basically gotta start fresh since Extended Cut came out.

Inb4 dumm noob 

http://social.biowar...ndex/13414717/1

[Doommarine23]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Doommarine23 wrote...

Wow, this thread is still goin on? I thought interest died down, god do I have to catch up on reading.
Hate to be *that* guy, but where should I start? haven't poked at any of these threads since Extended Cut came out and I'm having an information overload with all this new stuff to read and analyze. Basically gotta start fresh since Extended Cut came out.

Inb4 dumm noob 

http://social.biowar...ndex/13414717/1

Figured all that stuff would be the best place to start, but supposed I should have asked anyway.

Many thanks.

[spotlessvoid]

" What if he's Sovereign?"

That's so awesome. Need to think it through. Hmmm...maybe what they're doing in London is rebuilding Sovereign

[spotlessvoid]

Wish I could tell you a page to start doommarine, but I honestly have no idea which direction to even point you. Have you played Leviathan?

[Gwyphon]

Doommarine23 wrote...

Wow, this thread is still goin on? I thought interest died down, god do I have to catch up on reading.
Hate to be *that* guy, but where should I start? haven't poked at any of these threads since Extended Cut came out and I'm having an information overload with all this new stuff to read and analyze. Basically gotta start fresh since Extended Cut came out.

Inb4 dumm noob 

The videos on the front page a good place to start. Clevernoob's latest video is a good place to start (other than his strange rambling near the end.) It's not comprehensive but it's a great place to start after the extended cut.

[Rifneno]

spotlessvoid wrote...

" What if he's Sovereign?"

That's so awesome. Need to think it through. Hmmm...maybe what they're doing in London is rebuilding Sovereign

London?  Anderson was born there you know.

[Doommarine23]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Wish I could tell you a page to start doommarine, but I honestly have no idea which direction to even point you. Have you played Leviathan?

Would love to but I have no money. Maybe some day in the future.

But I'll just start with what you and 
Gwyphon both suggested, much appercited, thank you both.

[spotlessvoid]

Rifneno wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

" What if he's Sovereign?"

That's so awesome. Need to think it through. Hmmm...maybe what they're doing in London is rebuilding Sovereign

London?  Anderson was born there you know.

I could tell by his accent

[paxxton]

spotlessvoid wrote...

" What if he's Sovereign?"

That's so awesome. Need to think it through. Hmmm...maybe what they're doing in London is rebuilding Sovereign

Maybe Sovereign was Harbinger's son.

[spotlessvoid]

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

" What if he's Sovereign?"

That's so awesome. Need to think it through. Hmmm...maybe what they're doing in London is rebuilding Sovereign

Maybe Sovereign was Harbinger's son.

OMFG! For the 20th time- Jellyfish CAN'T be indoctrinated, paxxton! 

[paxxton]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

" What if he's Sovereign?"

That's so awesome. Need to think it through. Hmmm...maybe what they're doing in London is rebuilding Sovereign

London?  Anderson was born there you know.

I could tell by his accent

Picard was born in France.

[paxxton]

spotlessvoid wrote...

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

" What if he's Sovereign?"

That's so awesome. Need to think it through. Hmmm...maybe what they're doing in London is rebuilding Sovereign

Maybe Sovereign was Harbinger's son.

OMFG! For the 20th time- Jellyfish CAN'T be indoctrinated, paxxton! 

Seems legit.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Rifneno wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Very good observations Rifneno. The echo is going to be a relatively subjective thing but I'm at Virmire now (I'd pay $20 for a dlc allowing me to leave them both) so I'm going to have to YouTube it.

Your second point though is really interesting.
Obviously, your last paragraph makes a convenient and amateurish plot device into something deeper and fits the implications of your second point

"Saren: Sovereign recognizes your value. You've impressed it. Surrender to the Reapers and you will be spared. Join us and we can find a place for you."

Oh dear. There might really be something to this. Sovereign wanted Shepard indoctrinated. I noticed another couple of logical issues with Vigil. For one, he opens the conversation by saying Shepard isn't Prothean but isn't machine either and that this is one of the eventualities anticipated. Yet later in the conversation it's clear he already knew that the Protheans were very long dead. Later he claims they sent out the message about Ilos because they didn't yet understand indoctrination or that it could lead an agent of the Reapers there. Yet how did he find out that it could? He said :
- They only sent it after the Reaper retreated through the relay.
- That took hundreds of years and they knew it was unlikely any Protheans except those top scientists remained alive.
- Vigil had no contact with the scientists after they used the conduit to go to the Citadel to reprogram the Keepers.
In other words, if Vigil didn't know about indoctrination when they sent out the message, it had no way to ever find out. Yet not only does it know all about indoctrination, it claims to be able to sense it. lolwut.

The more I think about it, the more Vigil knows too many things it could not possibly know. ME1 still gets held up as an example of awesome writing. How could they have made so many amateur mistakes with Vigil? But then the question is, what really did happen in the Prothean cycle that gave the Reapers this hassle opening the Citadel relay? Did Sovereign put the pieces of the puzzle together itself and then let Vigil tell a mostly-true version thinking that the best lies are ones with some truth in them?

And this one is really out there, but it'll bother me if I don't voice it. Feel free to laugh it off. I remember an old theory back in the ME2 days that Sovereign had actually uploaded his mind into the Citadel while he had contact with it. Realizing he might fail, he uploaded a copy of his mind in case his physical form perished. Now if we assume that's possible, and you look at Sovereign's connection position to the Citadel, which is to say, exactly where the Crucible connects to the Citadel and roundabout where the decision chamber is... what if starbrat isn't Harbinger? What if he's Sovereign?

Actually Vigil says they dident anticipate the message they sent out could lead an Indoctrinated agent there and the message was sent out in a attempt to locate other living Protheans even if they knew it was probably futile.

Though regarding Vigils knowledge my guess is it used the beacons to watch during the cycle and taht is how it gained knowledge of Indoctrination and the Reapers. It then had that knowledge when the sciencetists woke up and they modified Vigil accordingly.

One has go remember the beacon network was not affected by the Citadel beeing cut of and that they could both be used for communication and for data storing from what we are told. Actually the beacons seem to work very similarly to the Leviathans orbs now that I think about it...could the Protheans have constructed the Beacons based on an Orb? Or is the implications even more unpleasant? I mean the Protheans were kinda control freaks at their peak as well.

As for Vigil suddenly understand English...I dont really know...perhaps it is based on the Protheans ability to understand a creature on a deep level like how Javik learns of the races and such in From Ashes.

Also we have to remember that Vigil gave us the means to defeat Sovereign and prevent the Reaper invasion through the use of a program which overrode Sovereigns control of the Citadel temporarily...and we can be pretty sure the Reapers werent happy with that.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 25 septembre 2012 - 06:29 .

[V-rcingetorix]

Vigil's erratic appearance is understandable, given that the warning about the Reapers is also fuzzy (just before the "up" elevator, after you deactivate security on Iilos). The other fuzzy recording has two different voices talking about Reapers, and how it is impossible to stop them.

Vigils' shutdown sounds more like Cerberus activity to me; if Cerby can get SR-1 top secret design schematics, then it can definitely get to Vigil, especially as the Council is looking for every resource they can get to (cheaply) translate/jumpstart the Prothean tech. Remember, witholding Prothean technology is punishable by death/taxes.

Vigil is also the only surviving VI from the Protheans...until Vendetta. I don't recall Vigil saying he sent the warning *after* the Reapers left, only that it was thought impossible for a Reaper to get it. The network seems to share the Prothean ability to transfer data tactiley as well.

As for being able to determine if Shepard is Indoctrinated, didn't Saren just walk through with a million Geth? Should be good for at least a cursory sampling...

But, if Vigil is actually a Reaper program...maybe Vendetta is as well? After all, it told TIM and Shep that the Catalyst is the Citadel, baiting the whole trap. It also delayed long enough so that Kai Leng could rescue/kidnap it, rendering the Crucible Project inoperable.

Maybe the Crucible is actually able to kill Reapers by using the Citadel as an amplification system. Assuming Shep wasn't indoctrinated in ME1 (mostly, anyway), we can conclude that the Citadel is crucial to allowing galaxy-wide access to the Mass Relays (Shep opens a Relay to save the Destiny Ascension). If the Citadel is able to do *that*, then perhaps it was the Catalyst after all, and the Reapers needed a little time to set up their dog-and-pony-show for Shepard.

Cue Vendetta. Any Prothean tech, particularly working tech, would be consulted for Final Weapon checks. Therefore, having a Reaper program survive (reaching a bit I know) would direct where the research went, like the Mass Relays direct technology development.

Huh...I'm, usually more lucid than this at this time of night (2:30 AM). Have bio lecture/lab in a few hours, suppose I should get some sleep.

Thanks for the excellent analysis/thoughts. I have enjoyed reading them.

EDIT: spelling...clarity...sortof

Modifié par V-rcingetorix, 25 septembre 2012 - 06:29 .

[Rifneno]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Actually Vigil says they dident anticipate the message they sent out could lead an Indoctrinated agent there and the message was sent out in a attempt to locate other living Protheans even if they knew it was probably futile.

Though regarding Vigils knowledge my guess is it used the beacons to watch during the cycle and taht is how it gained knowledge of Indoctrination and the Reapers. It then had that knowledge when the sciencetists woke up and they modified Vigil accordingly.

Nope. He specifically states that the message was sent out after the Reapers went back to dark space. Which took hundreds of years. The cycle was over. There was nothing more to observe. Yet he also said that when they sent out the message they didn't know about indoctrination.

One has go remember the beacon network was not affected by the Citadel beeing cut of and that they could both be used for communication and for data storing from what we are told. Actually the beacons seem to work very similarly to the Leviathans orbs now that I think about it...could the Protheans have constructed the Beacons based on an Orb? Or is the implications even more unpleasant? I mean the Protheans were kinda control freaks at their peak as well.

I wouldn't rule it out. I've always wondered why the Protheans were so important. ME1 was about the Prothean visions and their tampering with the Citadel. ME2 was about Reaperized Protheans. ME3 they promised to share "all the secrets about the Reapers and the Protheans." Protheans Protheans Protheans. I get that the last cycle is going to be a point of interesting but it clearly goes beyond that. Always wondered why. Still no hypothesis.

As for Vigil suddenly understand English...I dont really know...perhaps it is based on the Protheans ability to understand a creature on a deep level like how Javik learns of the races and such in From Ashes.

Nope. He specifically states it's because he's been "listening in on our communications since we arrived." So he heard Liara's surprise that the elevators still work and probably a lot of profanities uttered at the geth. Which is enough for him to speak and understand English perfectly. Did I mention that knowledge of all languages is a known indoctrination trait? Because it's a known indoctrination trait.

Also we have to remember that Vigil gave us the means to defeat Sovereign and prevent the Reaper invasion through the use of a program which overrode Sovereigns control of the Citadel temporarily...and we can be pretty sure the Reapers werent happy with that.

Ahh yes, the magic disk. The Protheans were taken utterly by surprise. They, like the other cycles, didn't understand the Citadel because the Keepers let them use it without needing to understand it. And he had no contact with the scientists when they used the Conduit to go back there. Yet he has a program that can take full control of the Citadel. Rusty van full of free candy levels of "Seems legit" there.

Also, the planet itself. If you take Vigil's story at face value the Reapers never found Ilos. Yet the planet has undergone some unknown cataclysm that rendered its surface a coppery color and killed all animal life on the planet. What was this unknown diaster and why did it happen?

[RavenEyry]

I already didn't trust vendetta thanks to this thread and now vigil's being fishy. I don't know who to trust anymore.

[Rifneno]

RavenEyry wrote...

I already didn't trust vendetta thanks to this thread and now vigil's being fishy. I don't know who to trust anymore.

Fishier than that asari who refuses to bathe.

...  Sorry, I'll stop now.

[BleedingUranium]

RavenEyry wrote...

I already didn't trust vendetta thanks to this thread and now vigil's being fishy. I don't know who to trust anymore.

I think Vigil's fine. What possible plot device or reveal could come of that? Everything related to him was done in ME1. I just played Cronos again, an I think Vendetta's probably okay too. To have a huge twist that the Catalyst is the Citadel, then another twist that it's not in the very next mission is pretty stupid.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Okay I think I formulated that badly.

Vigil was the VI watching over the scientists as they were in cryosleep, he could have been programmed with acess to the beacon network so that he could observe and gather data on the Reapers even as the scientists sleept. That data then became the base for Vigils programmed understanding of the Reapers and Indoctrination when the scientists woke up.

Also Vigil probably also monitored their communications when they found that broken warning message, there is some dialogue there. I know it is still strange which is why I suggested he might have used other methods of understanding in addition to observing them.

In regards to the magic disc  it is true we dont know the specifics of what it did, but we also have to remember the Protheans were way ahead of the Current cycle tech wise. They had constructed a Mass Relay and they probably had extensive studies of the Citadel and the Keepers as well. If any major secrets or such were found regarding the Citadel it probably ended up on Ilos for the scientists there to study and work with. Possibly the Scientists recogniced after they woke up that a later cycle might need some sort of override program and left it with Vigil.

A stretch I know, but not the strangest thing seen.

In regards to Ilos strange Cataclysm I cant say much. Might have been natural as had it been the Reapers no building more than 2 feet tall had been left standing...and we can be pretty sure it wasent the Reapers as no matter how you look at it the "magic disc" and Sovereigns defeat was a definitive setback for them. 

Possible explanation would be the Leviathans beeing behind it. After all if Ilos was the place for all the secret ressearch then any strange Leviathan orbs found might have ended up there as well. I allready mentioned some similarities between the Beacons and the Orbs as well as the Protheans beeing very focused on controlling everything.

The Leviathans could have been the driving force in the shadows for either just Ilos or the entire Prothean empire and ultimately the ones who gave us a fighting chance, but that is just guessing.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 25 septembre 2012 - 07:26 .