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[DoomsdayDevice]

Rankincountry wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

ivenoidea wrote...

Today i realized that people calling the Catalyst/Starchild a "Deus Ex Machina" are completely right.

Today this phrase means "sudden illogical solution to a problem", but translated properly from latin it means "God made from a machine."

Think about that for a moment.

Actually no, it literally means "God out of / from the machine", (not "made from") and even more accurately "God out of / from the crane".

In ancient Greek comedies and tragedies, whenever divine intervention was needed in the drama, they used a crane to lower a god onto the stage, as if he came floating down from Olympus itself.

I see your point, but it actually means that the god is coming from the machine, not made of it.

That is why it can also be used to mean a 'fake god'.

Ivenoidea's point still stands with the more correct translation - looking at DD's final sentence, more so in fact.

Agreed, I didn't say the point was lost.

I've translated Latin and ancient Greek for over 6 years, so I simply felt the need to clarify.

[RavenEyry]

It's almost as if they made Mr. Sparkle a deus ex machina on purpose, what with it easily fitting both meanings of the phrase.

[Rankincountry]

ivenoidea wrote...
Agreed, I didn't say the point was lost.

I've translated Latin and ancient Greek for over 6 years, so I simply felt the need to clarify.

:happy: Wasn't trying to imply you'd done anything out of line, just commenting that your translation made an interesting point even more so. I studied Latin and some Roman history at school and still have an interest in history and archaeology (no actual expertise though, my last History and Latin lessons were 23 years ago ).

[Rankincountry]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Countess Bathory

I lol'd.

Seriously though, all this in-fighting does not become thee, oh my brothers.

Agreed. If the Geth and the Quarians can learn to put aside their differences for a greater cause then so can we.

[ElSuperGecko]

paxxton wrote...

Rankincountry wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...
Dream 2 is the most interesting because it's vague about whether Shepard was actually asleep.

Very true.  It's almost more a case of Shepard slipping out of conciousness or "drifting off" rather than actually being asleep.

Shepard's showing serious signs of fatigue and stress throughout Mass Effect 3 - so much so, your squadmates pick up on it and are worried.  IIRC after every dream sequence, your team mates will ask if you're feeling OK, say that you look tired, or need to take a break etc...

It might also explain the lack of neutral dialogue options to some extent, with the stress and tiredness making Shep less able to see the middle ground in a conflict.

I don't know if it's just me, or if it's because of more detailed facial textures in ME3 compared to the others, but my Shepards (one default male, one home-made female) look to have visibly aged between ME2 and ME3. It's like you see him/her get ground down through the series. That Shep might then falter at the final confrontation makes sense - with Shep weak and exhausted yet so close, it is a risk for Harbinger to wait until the last moment to complete indoctrination, but also his best chance to break his mortal enemy.

Shep's resolve in the Destroy sequence and his seeming recovery as he advances towards the tube also make sense as the point at which mentally he breaks free of Harbinger's hold.

Exactly what I picked up while playing ME3 for the first time. All the humans who took part in the suicide mission with Shepard look exhausted. They have pale faces and look old.

I noticed that too.  My Shep had some serious dark circles around his eyes by the end of the game!

[Rankincountry]

Whilst it's quiet in here, here's a bit of speculation fuel from another forum. It's from a discussion about AI and Turing Tests, and someone quoted a review of the influential 1976 book Computer Power and Human Reason by Joseph Weizenbaum:

"...while artificial intelligence may be possible, we should never allow computers to make important decisions because computers will always lack human qualities such as compassion and wisdom. Weizenbaum makes the crucial distinction between deciding and choosing. Deciding is a computational activity, something that can ultimately be programmed. It is the capacity to choose that ultimately makes us human. Choice, however, is the product of judgment, not calculation. Comprehensive human judgment is able to include non-mathematical factors such as emotions. Judgment can compare apples and oranges, and can do so without quantifying each fruit type and then reductively quantifying each to factors necessary for mathematical comparison."

Sounds a bit like how the Leviathans came unstuck.

[Gwyphon]

I really want to learn more about the fall of the Leviathan's. There is not nearly enough information to make any sort of educated judgement of them until then.

My guy says not to trust the Leviathans though...

[paxxton]

Rankincountry wrote...

Whilst it's quiet in here, here's a bit of speculation fuel from another forum. It's from a discussion about AI and Turing Tests, and someone quoted a review of the influential 1976 book Computer Power and Human Reason by Joseph Weizenbaum:

"...while artificial intelligence may be possible, we should never allow computers to make important decisions because computers will always lack human qualities such as compassion and wisdom. Weizenbaum makes the crucial distinction between deciding and choosing. Deciding is a computational activity, something that can ultimately be programmed. It is the capacity to choose that ultimately makes us human. Choice, however, is the product of judgment, not calculation. Comprehensive human judgment is able to include non-mathematical factors such as emotions. Judgment can compare apples and oranges, and can do so without quantifying each fruit type and then reductively quantifying each to factors necessary for mathematical comparison."

Sounds a bit like how the Leviathans came unstuck.

Choice is based on finding an answer to a question about a relation between calculated quantities and thus can also be computed. Judgment can be based on previous experience, which is something computers can store and use to evaluate new situations. Compassion and wisdom are a "by-product" of sufficiently complex computation based on previous experience. What it means is that it's irrelevant to the process itself but rather those qualities of an agent are assigned to it by the viewer (or the object of its actions). The problem here is that what an AI might consider as important or choose to do is not necessarily something humans would see as desirable.

EDIT: What's that forum you're talking about?

Modifié par paxxton, 28 septembre 2012 - 02:44 .

[Rankincountry]

paxxton wrote...


Choice is based on finding an answer to a question about a relation between calculated quantities and thus can also be computed. Judgment can be based on previous experience, which is something computers can store and use to evaluate new situations. Compassion and wisdom are a "by-product" of sufficiently complex computation based on previous experience. What it means is that it's irrelevant to the process itself but rather those qualities of an agent are assigned to it by the viewer (or the object of its actions). The problem here is that what an AI might consider as important or choose to do is not necessarily something humans would see as desirable.

EDIT: What's that forum you're talking about?

The forum is Bad Science (www.badscience.net/forum) which was originally founded by Ben Goldacre who is a British medical doctor, science writer and sometimes columnist for the Guardian newspaper (www.guardian.co.uk). The forum covers any scientific topic, with a particular interest in exposing quack medicine, badly done scientific studies, poor quality journalism or writing.

[plfranke]

Rifneno wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

God, I can't believe plfranke actually sauntered back here. Pathetic worm. I guess the literalists couldn't stand his tantrums either.

Ever wondered why so few people like you?

Oh hey, you missed the opportunity to mock someone over a disability you know nothing about.  Poor show.

disability != personality

And yet, I still wouldn't stoop to your depths.  I guess that just makes one more man disgusted by you.

Stoop to her depths? Do you even think before you type your posts? She's 10 times as civil as you, and on top of that, her posts are actually informative and thought provoking. All I ever hear from you is "I'm right and and anyone who disagrees with me needs to leave" and then you try and make yourself look like the victim after you treat nearly everyone terribly. That's a sad way to live.

[RavenEyry]

Arguing with angry people just makes them angrier, best to just drop it.

I speak from experience attempting to deal with an angry person

[Restrider]

RavenEyry wrote...

Arguing with angry people just makes them angrier, best to just drop it.

I speak from experience attempting to deal with an angry person

Careful, else Iconoclaste comes here to scratch your eyes out.

[RavenEyry]

Only if I say his name three times.

[Restrider]

Watch out...!

[ivenoidea]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...
Agreed, I didn't say the point was lost.

I've translated Latin and ancient Greek for over 6 years, so I simply felt the need to clarify.

Sorry, my latin is pretty bad. Thanks for the correction 

I thought it was meant to say "God from a machine", but figured "made from" kind of makes more sense. Guess not

Modifié par ivenoidea, 28 septembre 2012 - 04:34 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Hum, I've got a "new" theory to think about (actually it's a mix)

After the coup when you have Anderson and Hackett on the com they say something like the Crucible generates enough energy to defeat the Reapers and they are sure the Catalyst controls how to release it so it doesn't wipe out anything else.
Now we assume the Catalyst is something on the Citadel but if it's in fact a determined person? This especially makes sense when we look at the low ems segment. We have only either destroy or control, and Shepard is desperate. More desperate than needed and therefor it has very destructive side effects.
Higher ems means Shepard is less desperate, but used more time, more time to be influenced.
Now the actual Catalyst in this case would be Shepard, the choices would be just a manifestation in her mind for the player to choose. The guardian however can be two things: the part of the psyche that is broken (there are numerous references to that, especially if you start a game without importing), and maybe controlled. Another option would be a manifestation of Harbinger in her mind (more "classic" IT) who tries one final time.
Another plus to this theory is indoctrination preys on turning the victims wishes into the wishes of the Reapers. The Reapers want synthesis, or at least "survive", so a Shepard who is desperate and determined to destroy the Reapers would never choose Synthesis. It can only come up when Shepard is more relaxed, less on guard, and can be implanted with suggestions. I couldn't think of any other explanation where it would make sense to get Synthesis with more EMS. It has to be a complete mind game for it to make sense, for which the only explanation is: Shepard is the catalyst.

And it's not just evidence for this in the last bit, we can see that whereever Shepard goes people believe in her. Even when not agreeing (VS on Horizon who even goes so far calling Shep a god) Shepard gives hope and gives people who nearly given up strength. Look at the people you pick up for the squad. Everyone starts out like they've given up, but it's Shepards determination which gives them strength, the same determination she uses to activate the Crucible.

[plfranke]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Hum, I've got a "new" theory to think about (actually it's a mix)

After the coup when you have Anderson and Hackett on the com they say something like the Crucible generates enough energy to defeat the Reapers and they are sure the Catalyst controls how to release it so it doesn't wipe out anything else.
Now we assume the Catalyst is something on the Citadel but if it's in fact a determined person? This especially makes sense when we look at the low ems segment. We have only either destroy or control, and Shepard is desperate. More desperate than needed and therefor it has very destructive side effects.
Higher ems means Shepard is less desperate, but used more time, more time to be influenced.
Now the actual Catalyst in this case would be Shepard, the choices would be just a manifestation in her mind for the player to choose. The guardian however can be two things: the part of the psyche that is broken (there are numerous references to that, especially if you start a game without importing), and maybe controlled. Another option would be a manifestation of Harbinger in her mind (more "classic" IT) who tries one final time.
Another plus to this theory is indoctrination preys on turning the victims wishes into the wishes of the Reapers. The Reapers want synthesis, or at least "survive", so a Shepard who is desperate and determined to destroy the Reapers would never choose Synthesis. It can only come up when Shepard is more relaxed, less on guard, and can be implanted with suggestions. I couldn't think of any other explanation where it would make sense to get Synthesis with more EMS. It has to be a complete mind game for it to make sense, for which the only explanation is: Shepard is the catalyst.

And it's not just evidence for this in the last bit, we can see that whereever Shepard goes people believe in her. Even when not agreeing (VS on Horizon who even goes so far calling Shep a god) Shepard gives hope and gives people who nearly given up strength. Look at the people you pick up for the squad. Everyone starts out like they've given up, but it's Shepards determination which gives them strength, the same determination she uses to activate the Crucible.

I just don't understand why the Reapers would have to "try one last time" to indoctrinate Shepard. I mean, it doesn't matter how much you believe if you simply can't beat the enemy. And, that's the situation we're in on Earth. I feel like there's not enough motive for indoctrination, unless there is some weapon we have that has yet to be revealed, dealing with Shepard.

[FifthBeatle]

plfranke wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Hum, I've got a "new" theory to think about (actually it's a mix)

After the coup when you have Anderson and Hackett on the com they say something like the Crucible generates enough energy to defeat the Reapers and they are sure the Catalyst controls how to release it so it doesn't wipe out anything else.
Now we assume the Catalyst is something on the Citadel but if it's in fact a determined person? This especially makes sense when we look at the low ems segment. We have only either destroy or control, and Shepard is desperate. More desperate than needed and therefor it has very destructive side effects.
Higher ems means Shepard is less desperate, but used more time, more time to be influenced.
Now the actual Catalyst in this case would be Shepard, the choices would be just a manifestation in her mind for the player to choose. The guardian however can be two things: the part of the psyche that is broken (there are numerous references to that, especially if you start a game without importing), and maybe controlled. Another option would be a manifestation of Harbinger in her mind (more "classic" IT) who tries one final time.
Another plus to this theory is indoctrination preys on turning the victims wishes into the wishes of the Reapers. The Reapers want synthesis, or at least "survive", so a Shepard who is desperate and determined to destroy the Reapers would never choose Synthesis. It can only come up when Shepard is more relaxed, less on guard, and can be implanted with suggestions. I couldn't think of any other explanation where it would make sense to get Synthesis with more EMS. It has to be a complete mind game for it to make sense, for which the only explanation is: Shepard is the catalyst.

And it's not just evidence for this in the last bit, we can see that whereever Shepard goes people believe in her. Even when not agreeing (VS on Horizon who even goes so far calling Shep a god) Shepard gives hope and gives people who nearly given up strength. Look at the people you pick up for the squad. Everyone starts out like they've given up, but it's Shepards determination which gives them strength, the same determination she uses to activate the Crucible.

I just don't understand why the Reapers would have to "try one last time" to indoctrinate Shepard. I mean, it doesn't matter how much you believe if you simply can't beat the enemy. And, that's the situation we're in on Earth. I feel like there's not enough motive for indoctrination, unless there is some weapon we have that has yet to be revealed, dealing with Shepard.

I've only been causally following this conversation, but you're intentionally messing with us right? 

I'm new to internet message boards, but is this what a troll is?

[plfranke]

FifthBeatle wrote...

plfranke wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Hum, I've got a "new" theory to think about (actually it's a mix)

After the coup when you have Anderson and Hackett on the com they say something like the Crucible generates enough energy to defeat the Reapers and they are sure the Catalyst controls how to release it so it doesn't wipe out anything else.
Now we assume the Catalyst is something on the Citadel but if it's in fact a determined person? This especially makes sense when we look at the low ems segment. We have only either destroy or control, and Shepard is desperate. More desperate than needed and therefor it has very destructive side effects.
Higher ems means Shepard is less desperate, but used more time, more time to be influenced.
Now the actual Catalyst in this case would be Shepard, the choices would be just a manifestation in her mind for the player to choose. The guardian however can be two things: the part of the psyche that is broken (there are numerous references to that, especially if you start a game without importing), and maybe controlled. Another option would be a manifestation of Harbinger in her mind (more "classic" IT) who tries one final time.
Another plus to this theory is indoctrination preys on turning the victims wishes into the wishes of the Reapers. The Reapers want synthesis, or at least "survive", so a Shepard who is desperate and determined to destroy the Reapers would never choose Synthesis. It can only come up when Shepard is more relaxed, less on guard, and can be implanted with suggestions. I couldn't think of any other explanation where it would make sense to get Synthesis with more EMS. It has to be a complete mind game for it to make sense, for which the only explanation is: Shepard is the catalyst.

And it's not just evidence for this in the last bit, we can see that whereever Shepard goes people believe in her. Even when not agreeing (VS on Horizon who even goes so far calling Shep a god) Shepard gives hope and gives people who nearly given up strength. Look at the people you pick up for the squad. Everyone starts out like they've given up, but it's Shepards determination which gives them strength, the same determination she uses to activate the Crucible.

I just don't understand why the Reapers would have to "try one last time" to indoctrinate Shepard. I mean, it doesn't matter how much you believe if you simply can't beat the enemy. And, that's the situation we're in on Earth. I feel like there's not enough motive for indoctrination, unless there is some weapon we have that has yet to be revealed, dealing with Shepard.

I've only been causally following this conversation, but you're intentionally messing with us right? 

I'm new to internet message boards, but is this what a troll is?

What are you talking about?

[spotlessvoid]

The Reapers want more than just victory. I wonder how much a Reapers construction is effected by the quantity of organic paste is accumulated? They really could be trying to indoctrinate Shepard to facilitate that process

Also, the Reapers can't really afford to take many losses during a cycle because of their method of creation. 4-5 dead Reapers per cycle is going to defeat them through attrition. They need things to be as easy as possible.

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 28 septembre 2012 - 06:32 .

[paxxton]

Maybe the catalyst is tungsten, the mineral mined by T-GES.

[D.Sharrah]

Been listening to the soundtrack a lot...does anyone else find it odd that there is so much "Reaper" noise ochrestrated into the songs? I get it being part of the game...but why so integrated with the music?

[bip78]

So was it an hallucination?

[Fiery Phoenix]

RavenEyry wrote...

Dream 2 is the most interesting because it's vague about whether Shepard was actually asleep.

I agree.

I still find it funny how the dreams are still unexplained. I understand they're supposed to be dreams, but I can't deny I had no idea what I was watching every time I played through them.

[D.Sharrah]

Anyone know when to expect Choose Wisely 2?