80611 réponses à ce sujet

[GethPrimeMKII]

jla0644 wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

its kinda funny when some people IT isn't what Bioware planned, even though Bioware did

They had a plan to include a scene where Shepard would fall under Reaper control.

This does not in any way mean the IT was ever Bioware's intention. Whatever they had planned may have looked nothing like the IT.

None of us have any way of knowing what they were planning, but I think it's much more likely that original plan turned into what we saw with TIM -- Shep temporarily falling under someone else's control, but not becoming indoctrinated.

What else has falling under reaper control been identified as aside from indoctrination? Why did they want players to experience things the same way Shepard does? Why do the writers refer to the ending as the perfect illusion? What better way is there to let the player feel what Shepard feels than tricking the player as well? Are you sure indoctrination wasnt their intention?

[demersel]

hello, friends. What's new?
Can somebody give me a link to CWep2?

[spotlessvoid]

Giving up on a game mechanic they had trouble implementing with the dialogue wheel shows that they intended the narrative to go the direction of Shepard getting indoctrinated. Why would Bioware give up on the coolest twist in ages because they couldn't get the game mechanic right? Seems to me that they found another way to implement it

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 29 septembre 2012 - 07:35 .

[mass perfection]

Does Refusal ending make you indoctrinated?

[spotlessvoid]

demersel wrote...

hello, friends. What's new?
Can somebody give me a link to CWep2?

Next Thursday. His YouTube handle is sentramaster

[Andromidius]

What are cinematics?

They are a method of moving along the story when gameplay is either unneeded (pure dialogue) or impractical (showing off an entire battle in space, for example).

If the writers couldn't make a gameplay sequence work, why not just put it into a cutscene instead? Or better yet, why not attempt to make a cutscene that's playable? Removing control from the player, while leaving the illusion there is control.

Think about it. The last ten minutes of Mass Effect, how much gameplay is there really? You walk along a straight corridor with nothing to interact with at all on the way. Then you get into a five minute conversation with Anderson and TIM, where you have minimal impact on how things go. You then go up to see Starchild where again you get to do nothing bar have a conversation where you can't really do anything (bar cause Refusal), and then get to walk in one of three directions to trigger the final cutscene.

There's no actual gameplay there! Its a cinematic!

[Restrider]

Davik Kang wrote...

Ah ok thanks.  Although, I still think that the ending involves an indoctrination attempt, but that waking up on the Citadel wouldn't contradict that.

Waking up on the Citadel after the explosion is a massive plothole (if we assume that the explosion really happened). This, and other arguments I am not going to list here right now, invalidate IT Con in my view. Yet you cannot argue with TheTwilightGod about that, because he has the habit to discuss these points in a dismissive way ignoring the core problems with his thesis.
WNT as far as I know, does not have these problems, since you could always say that the events shown (ie. explosion) is shown exaggurated etc.
In any case, I highly encourage you to look up the Crucible Emission Energy in my signature. That alone should invalidate the argument that the breath scene can take place on the Citadel.

Modifié par Restrider, 29 septembre 2012 - 08:49 .

[TJBartlemus]

Restrider wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Ah ok thanks.  Although, I still think that the ending involves an indoctrination attempt, but that waking up on the Citadel wouldn't contradict that.

Waking up on the Citadel after the explosion is a massive plothole (if we assume that the explosion really happened). This, and other arguments I am not going to list here right now, invalidate IT Con in my view. Yet you cannot argue with TheTwilightGod about that, because he has the habit to discuss these points in a dismissive way ignoring the core problems with his thesis.
WNT as far as I know, does not have these problems, since you could always say that the events shown (ie. explosion) is shown exaggurated etc.
In any case, I highly encourage you to look ab the Crucible Emission Energy in my signature. That alone should invalidate the argument that the breath scene can take on the Citadel.

WNT is so solid no one has yet given a single proof to disprove it. +100 points to WNT!!! 

[DoomsdayDevice]

Javik: You took a great risk, allowing a machine access into your mind, commander. What if it had infected you? (After Geth Consensus)

Shepard: There's things you don't have control over.

Leviathan: Your own species could be destroyed by a single thought.

Javik: Subjugating the Reapers will not bring victory, only extinction will.

Vigil: Your survival depends on destroying them, not understanding them.

Shepard: Don't let them take your will to fight. (To James, London, FOB, Priority: Earth)

Javik: Do not waver, victory is never won without difficult choices. (London, FOB, Priority: Earth)

Samara: Treat them as any other enemy - show no quarter, mercy, or weakness

Samara: If you change who someone is, how they think, you have killed them. They will be something new in the same body.

Jack: If you screwed with my head, made me nod and smile at everything, I'd rather you blew my head off. Let me die as me.

Shepard: The way home is through Leviathan (?)

Garrus: The Reapers are just a giant nightmare factory that never ends

Allers: A nightmare on Earth. Human leaders using military force on their own people. They say it's to prevent loose cannons from provoking the Reapers. But are they indoctrinated?

Liara: This nightmare will never end.
Shepard: The hell it won't. We get to this artifact and we can all wake up.
Javik: ... 50.000 years later

Shepard: If you had saved them all, would things have worked out better?
Vega: I... I don't know. I don't think so.
Shepard: The right choice is usually not the easy one.

Foreshadow much, Bioware?

[Davik Kang]

BleedingUranium wrote...
They intended Shepard to become indoctrinated; that's all we need.

careful.  these kinds of sweeping statements are the ones the crazies use

mass perfection wrote...
Does Refusal ending make you indoctrinated?

This will vary from person to person.  Imo no, by refusing to act either for or against the Reapers, it means you will not join them as they wish, which is why the KidReaper is disappointed.  But you could argue that the fact Shepard refused to activate the Crucible was a successful side-effect of the indoctrination attempt.

Oh ****.  This is a good point for my own theory!  Bam!

A pure IT supporter could say that Refuse means to give up hope, and that Shepard would die while unconscious... but still...

Restrider wrote...
Waking up on the Citadel after the explosion is a massive plothole (if we assume that the explosion really happened).In any case, I highly encourage you to look ab the Crucible Emission Energy in my signature. That alone should invalidate the argument that the breath scene can take place on the Citadel.

Yeah good point, tbh I'm pretty sure it's Earth where Shepard wakes up anyway.  Whcih is unfortunately a bit of a blow to my interpretation.  This is the real killer...

Modifié par Davik Kang, 29 septembre 2012 - 07:53 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

@David Kang, have you played Leviathan?

Leviathan establishes perfectly that the whole ending can be a hallucination.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

mass perfection wrote...

Does Refusal ending make you indoctrinated?

A good question with many diferent ideas.

Most agree it is better than Control and Synthesis, but better than Destroy...that is up to debate.

Also hello everyone.

[TJBartlemus]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

@David Kang, have you played Leviathan?

Leviathan establishes perfectly that the whole ending can be a hallucination.

But to what extent is that hallucination? IT or WNT? Hmmmmmmm...... 

[Samtheman63]

Samtheman63 wrote...

TJBartlemus wrote...

 Geez. IT is false. This thread has totally changed my mind on IT. IT is all a conspiracy theory. This disproves IT...[saracasm] Seriously...there is not enough facepalms....

http://social.biowar.../index/14293006

this guys right!

wow i totally mis-read this guys post lol

[TJBartlemus]

Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

mass perfection wrote...

Does Refusal ending make you indoctrinated?

A good question with many diferent ideas.

Most agree it is better than Control and Synthesis, but better than Destroy...that is up to debate.

Also hello everyone.

HI and Goodbye. Gotta leave.  I should be going....

[Davik Kang]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

@David Kang, have you played Leviathan?

Leviathan establishes perfectly that the whole ending can be a hallucination.

I agree entirely that the whole ending can be a hallucination.  And various posters on this site, including yourself, have convinced me that this is the interpretation with the fewest plot holes.  It's just that, for now, I don't think that the whole ending was a hallucination.

[masster blaster]

To me WNT is right, but only when you meet the Catalyst.

Think about it the area on the Citadel that you are at, are things that Shepard has seen/ been to in his/her mind. Also remember TSA found the diologue in the ME3 files that Shepard is marked as the listener, or something similar along the lines.

Also think about when someone, I think Otter managed to do an over lay of The Conduit , and the Catalyst chambers look similar.

Also remember.

The hallway represents Shepard's damaged body.

The Shadowbrokers enngiens are the electrons in Shepard's brain.

Anderson: Shepard's uncorrupted mind.

TIM: Harbinger, or Leviathans posion infulence on Shepard.

Opening the Citadel is opening Shepard's in Reality, yet is now seeing a vurtial world, like Overlord.

The catalyst chambers: Is the moment of truth.

The chocie: What will become of Shepard.

The Crucible firing is the chain reaction

The Realys are Shepard limthatic system.

The Galaxy Shepard's body.

The people of the Galaxy are pieces of Shepard's shattered will.

The two soldiers represent Shepard's will to fight on.

The Normandy escaping is Shepard's final destination.

[spotlessvoid]

My biggest problems with assuming anything about the decision chamber is real is that 1. How/why/and by whom the crucible was designed 2. If starchild was changed by the crucible, why does he have Harbinger try and kill Shepard? 3. What was the control panel? What the heck is the decision chamber then?

If starchild is causing Shepard to hallucinate and synthesis and control are traps, while destroy is successfully interacting with the control panel-why would starchild present destroy at all?

And why is Shepard in rubble if he just pushed a button on the control panel?

[ElSuperGecko]

spotlessvoid wrote...
Giving up on a game mechanic they had trouble implementing with the dialogue wheel shows that they intended the narrative to go the direction of Shepard getting indoctrinated. Why would Bioware give up on the coolest twist in ages because they couldn't get the game mechanic right? Seems to me that they found another way to implement it

Yep, that's pretty much exactly what I thought.  According to Final Hours, the gameplay mechanic was dropped in November.  That's not much time before the game was actually released.  All the build up, foreshadowing and story leading to Sheaprd's indoctrination will still be present in the game.

Plus, I'm actually GLAD that the mechanic itself was dropped.  If the player physically lost control of Shepard, it would be obvious what was happening - clear as day.  As it stands, I think it's left the ending much more compelling.  We get to guess, speculate, delve deeper into the game and the story and discuss what we've seen, what it means... but we don't know for sure.  Not until Bioware talks, anywyay (and they seem more than happy to leave us guessing!).

[Davik Kang]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Yep, that's pretty much exactly what I thought.  According to Final Hours, the gameplay mechanic was dropped in November.  That's not much time before the game was actually released.  All the build up, foreshadowing and story leading to Sheaprd's indoctrination will still be present in the game.

Plus, I'm actually GLAD that the mechanic itself was dropped.  If the player physically lost control of Shepard, it would be obvious what was happening - clear as day.  As it stands, I think it's left the ending much more compelling.  We get to guess, speculate, delve deeper into the game and the story and discuss what we've seen, what it means... but we don't know for sure.  Not until Bioware talks, anywyay (and they seem more than happy to leave us guessing!).

Yeah I think I saw you post something like this before, saying how heavy-handed such an approach would have been.  100% agree.

[masster blaster]

I want to know more about Keeper 20. It felt like Bioware was planing something with that keeper, but then nothing happened in ME3. That makes me wonder if in the Citadel dlc Keeper 20 will bring up new info we haven't come up with yet.

[DoomsdayDevice]

MB, you're a special kind of crazy.

That's a great way to look at it.

I love it! 

[401 Kill]

masster blaster wrote...

I want to know more about Keeper 20. It felt like Bioware was planing something with that keeper, but then nothing happened in ME3. That makes me wonder if in the Citadel dlc Keeper 20 will bring up new info we haven't come up with yet.

I'm very sorry, but what is keeper 20? I have heard it mentioned before but I'm not familiar with that aspect of Mass Effect. (Does it have anything to do with the keeper scanning side mission in ME?)

[Restrider]

spotlessvoid wrote...

My biggest problems with assuming anything about the decision chamber is real is that 1. How/why/and by whom the crucible was designed 2. If starchild was changed by the crucible, why does he have Harbinger try and kill Shepard? 3. What was the control panel? What the heck is the decision chamber then?

If starchild is causing Shepard to hallucinate and synthesis and control are traps, while destroy is successfully interacting with the control panel-why would starchild present destroy at all?

And why is Shepard in rubble if he just pushed a button on the control panel?

This is why I think IT Con is flawed.
If the Kid had control of the elevator (what I assume) he brought up Shepard to let him make a choice. It is stated that the Kid has the control to activate the different devices, which are part of the Citadel not the Crucible! If the Kid's desire is to lure Shepard into Control and/or Synthesis, why present Destroy? 
A common answer to this question is that the absence of Destroy would alarm Shepard that maybe something is wrong with the whole situation. I think this is perfectly possible.
But in IT Con it is stated that by choosing Destroy, you actually destroy the reapers. That is just dumb.
Why should the reapers risk their very existence just to have the chance to indoctrinate a simple human (though special in some ways)?

If I were the Kid and I would try to lure Shepard into my trap, I would offer him Destroy, but it would only be a dummy/mock-up. If Shepard chooses Control/Synthesis, his mind is mine! If he chooses Destroy, I know that he did not pass my test (from the Kid's POV) and that I cannot indoctrinate him. But Shepard would just shoot a tube of the A/C of Sha'ira's and nothing important would happen (e.g. Shepard would stand there in the chamber like at the Refuse ending and see the cycle continue).

The breath scene is the last nail in the coffin of IT Con. If it takes place on the Citadel, just look up Crucible Energy Emission in my signature. If it takes place on Earth/London, it equals IT Dream.

Yet, you cannot reason with TTG about that.

[Restrider]

401 Kill wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

I want to know more about Keeper 20. It felt like Bioware was planing something with that keeper, but then nothing happened in ME3. That makes me wonder if in the Citadel dlc Keeper 20 will bring up new info we haven't come up with yet.

I'm very sorry, but what is keeper 20? I have heard it mentioned before but I'm not familiar with that aspect of Mass Effect. (Does it have anything to do with the keeper scanning side mission in ME?)

Check this out.
Btw: I'd like to know what happened to the guy trying to get into Afterlife in ME2!