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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!
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byne
, juil. 30 2012 07:09
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#27452
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 05:55
Rankincountry
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DoomsdayDevice wrote...
MegumiAzusa wrote...
There isn't even one bit that could remotely be a tank.masster blaster wrote...
Maybe a Grizzly then Meg, but it could be half Mako, and half Reaper artifact?
I'm sorry, I just don't see what you mean.
All I see is a Mako-like tank lying on its back, with some weird Reaper-like artifacts in front of it.
Those objects are really intriguing and I really wonder what they could be.
They're a lot more interesting than the mako/not-mako. I think that the sheer impossibility of Shepard surviving the crucible explosion means that we can discount the breath scene taking place on the Citadel and it's those artifacts that we should be focusing on rather than arguing the toss over background details.
For the record it looks a lot like a mako to my naked eye. Is there any way or reason that the geometry of an object in a non-game-engine cutscene like this one could become distorted during the edit?
Modifié par Rankincountry, 30 septembre 2012 - 05:56 .
#27453
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 05:55
masster blaster
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Sorry Paxxton links don't go well on my phone. Yet it's still on the front page of this forum.
#27455
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 05:56
paxxton
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#27456
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 05:58
ElSuperGecko
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Rankincountry wrote...
Here's a pile of corpses discarded in the corridor - the bald "Ashley" corpses that turn up in the piles either side of the beam run and also in the Citadel corridor. So Anderson's remark that the piles of corpses on the Citadel looks like Shepard's description of the Collector ship takes on a little more significance in this context.
Good catch! Those corpses on the Citadel always disturbed me... they look more like mannequins than actual human bodies!
#27457
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 06:00
DoomsdayDevice
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I don't care for TTG's theory, it's flawed IMO.
Nice! Great find!
And yet I still can't see what you're seeing. The pictures you used recently to outline the thing that's not a wheel in your opinion, aren't a wheel in my view either, it's a rectangled bulky thing that's in between the wheels, IMO.
I appreciate the effort, but I look at that video you made over and over, and I just don't see what you mean, sorry.
Rankincountry wrote...
So
I'm running my infiltrator through ME2, looking for things that appear
again in the ending sequence of ME3. There's the engines on the Shadow
Broker's ship of course, but I found something interesting on the
Collector ship (when you follow the fake Turian distress signal) that I
haven't seen before. Apologies to anyone who has spotted this one
already, but it's new to me [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie].
Here's
a pile of corpses discarded in the corridor - the bald "Ashley" corpses
that turn up in the piles either side of the beam run and also in the
Citadel corridor. So Anderson's remark that the piles of corpses on the
Citadel looks like Shepard's description of the Collector ship takes on a
little more significance in this context.
The Collector ship
mission is quite eerie, particularly before any combat starts. The
atmosphere is a lot like that corridor in the Citadel and elements are
carried over - the corpses, liquid dripping from the ceiling and tight
corridors opening out into a more cavernous area. It occured to me that
it might be interesting to compare the background sounds from each to
see if there are any similarities, or even if there's infrasound on the
Collector ship.
Just thought I'd throw this out there anyhow [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie].
Nice! Great find!
MegumiAzusa wrote...
And where should that be? The supposed wheel is nonexistent as a few frames after the screen used so often here to depict it shows it was nothing but an optical illusion.
And yet I still can't see what you're seeing. The pictures you used recently to outline the thing that's not a wheel in your opinion, aren't a wheel in my view either, it's a rectangled bulky thing that's in between the wheels, IMO.
I appreciate the effort, but I look at that video you made over and over, and I just don't see what you mean, sorry.
#27458
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 06:02
Guest_SwobyJ_*
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BansheeOwnage wrote...
I edited it it a bit. I mean indoctrination as leadership can be neutral, but that's not what I meant after that. You're right.plfranke wrote...
Then that's not indoctrination. Indoctrination doesn't allow you to make your own decisions, because you're decisions are being influenced. That's the defining feature of indoctrination.BansheeOwnage wrote...
I think that indoctrination may be able to be neutral. People should be given all of the facts and evidence, and can make their own decisions and interpretations based on them.Iconoclaste wrote...
Push the "logic and faith" to the boundaries of their respective terminology, and it's not different from "indoctrination". Then, could "indoctrination" be good sometimes?plfranke wrote...
I've never been a fan of the "Shepard is indoctrinating people" theory. It sounds too much like the thread on here that says that all human beings are really controlled. It's a terrible read. There's just too large a gap between being persuaded to make a decision through logic and faith and being forced to make a decision by someone else.
Even is Shepard has a new evolutionary trait, he doesn't indoctrinate, he *inspires*.
Think of how dangerous these powers are - the thorian is less dangerous than the leviathan, and the rachni (when not tampered with) are less dangerous than the thorian. The human may be the next step of this - making the galaxy finally ready to outgrow both the Reapers and Leviathans.
Paragon = You share this with the galaxy's races, focus on co-operation. Charm.
Renegade = You keep this power to yourself, intent on your immediate goal, focus on competition. Intimidate.
In either case, Shepard has an 'aura' that others follow.
Leviathan = direct control, enthralldom
Reaper = indoctrination, direct control through Harbinger (the Leviathan Reaper), nanides influencing direct actions
Thorian = indoctrination pollen leading to a softer form of enthralldom via pain reinforcement
Rachni = direct control of willing or dead organics, neural web influencing their 'children'
...
Human? (Shepard) = indirect control of willing organics (aka *inspiration*/*leadership*/*persuasion*, start of neural web which allowed Shepard to access the Prothian Beacon on Eden Prime, to just start with
Prothians = had an evolution of this before the human/Council cycle, but it wasn't enough, as they didn't have sympathetic minds to other organics, they just dominated them
The main point is that organics and synthetics BOTH evolve into interconnectivity in different ways. Synthetics may opt for consensus, while Organics are torn between fighting and competing, and being telepathically connected in a deeper way (hello Asari) than even Synthetics.
Shepard is the true synthesis between the two, the true Catalyst. It's up to the player to encourage a Paragon influence over others, or a Renegade, but in either case, you have your followers and goals met, and the inate tools in order to defeat the Reapers.
#27459
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 06:06
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spotlessvoid wrote...
Agreed. Shepard is a leader because of actions and words. Not some hidden forceplfranke wrote...
I've never been a fan of the "Shepard is indoctrinating people" theory. It sounds too much like the thread on here that says that all human beings are really controlled. It's a terrible read. There's just too large a gap between being persuaded to make a decision through logic and faith and being forced to make a decision by someone else.
I think its pretty much bashed into our heads in the series that there is a greater cosmic force to everything in the galaxy/universe of Mass Effect, and organics are just beginning to understand it.
Shepard's actions and words ARE his power. He doesn't need to enthrall others like the Leviathan, manipulate them like the Reapers, infest them like the Thorian, or intrude on them like the Rachni Queens.
He just needs to be himself and continue fighting, and others WILL follow, in some way or another (as long as he tests his leadership skills via Paragon or Renegade points).
He's not controlling others, and they're free to leave whenever they want. It's just his actions and words *are* good enough to move them to follow him and join his fight.
Screw the Reapers, humanity and by extention, this whole current cycle IS the next evolution of organic life. We don't need the Reapers to fulfil our potential. We're already there.
#27460
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 06:08
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BansheeOwnage wrote...
It would be like them not having Harby talk in ME3 because a few people found it annoying. I think Harby doesn't talk (yet! Omega) because of IT. Well actually, I think the only good reason for a lot of things is IT.plfranke wrote...
That's not true at all. If Bioware forsees that, say, IT would have a very large negative impact on any future for the franchise they would never follow through with it. Not that I think a few people on the forums is going to make a difference, but it's not true to say Bioware doesn't care whether IT will be accepted.byne wrote...
masster blaster wrote...
If we going to have IT become a reality to people we have to show people that IT is not dead, nor some fan theory.
I'm fairly certain that if BioWare planned IT, they arent going to care whether or not it is generally accepted in regards to whether or not they actually do it.
I'm of the mind that Harbinger has been speaking to Shepard and only Shepard throughout ME2.
I don't recall *anyone* in the series mentioning Harbinger speaking, only that he exists and is a Reaper.
Shepard may have been mentally compromised to some degree since ME2 or even ME1.
But he also has the tools to rise entirely above it and be victorious.
#27461
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 06:16
Guest_SwobyJ_*
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Rifneno wrote...
Hey guys. Busy day yesterday, just skimmed through some posts and it seemed same old same old. Paxxton's glorifying control, Bane's hating on ManShep, ect. I miss anything important?
Read my posts, haha.
I pop in here sometimes.
#27462
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 06:21
masster blaster
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I can't believe who many ITers are going to threads and comming up with good well debates. I am so happy right now I wish Banshee, Byne and everyone else was here.
#27463
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 06:21
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Eryri wrote...
Hi Guys,
Just popping in to say, keep up the speculations! Still the best and most interesting thread on the BSN.
On a slightly off-topic ramble - If they ever do a trailer for an IT reveal DLC - how about this Florence and the Machine song for a soundtrack?
Plenty of lyrics that could fit - "No light, no light in your bright blue eyes" (assuming you picked destroy, of course).
"A revelation in the light of day" and so on.
Plus Bioware might still have a contract with her after she did the end-credits theme to DA2?
(apologies for spamming)
Agreed! It fits.
I also really like the Choose Wisely music from Vanden Plas.
Here's one, Gethsemane (Geth? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gethsemane hmmm... Gethsemane (Greek: Γεθσημανἰ, Gethsēmani Hebrew: גת שמנים, Gat-Šmânim Aramaic: גת שמני, Gath-Šmânê, classical Syriac: ܓܕܣܡܢ, Gat Šmānê, lit. "oil press") is a garden at the foot of the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem most famous as the place where, according to the gospels, Jesus and his disciples are said to have prayed the night before Jesus' crucifixion.)
youtu.be/Wnp5HrGGv8I
I only want to say
If there is a way
Take this cup away from me
For I don't want to taste its poison
Feel it burn me
I have changed
I'm not as sure, as when we started
Then, I was inspired
Now, I'm sad and tired
Listen, surely I've exceeded expectations
Tried for three years, seems like thirty
Could you ask as much from any other man?
But if I die
See the saga through, and do the things you ask of me
Let them hate me, hit me, hurt me, nail me to their tree
I'd want to know, I'd want to know, My God
I'd want to know, I'd want to know, My God
Want to see, I'd want to see, My God
Want to see, I'd want to see, My God
Why I should die
Would I be more noticed than I ever was before?
Would the things I've said and done matter any more?
I'd have to know, I'd have to know, my Lord
Have to know, I'd have to know, my Lord
Have to see, I'd have to see, my Lord
Have to see, I'd have to see, my Lord
If I die what will be my reward?
If I die what will be my reward?
Have to know, I'd have to know, my Lord
I'd have to know, I'd have to know, my Lord
Why should I die? Oh why should I die?
Can you show me now, that I would not be killed in vain?
Show me just a little of your omnipresent brain
Show me there's a reason for your wanting me to die
You're far to keen on where and how, and not so hot on why
Alright, I'll die
See how I die
Just watch me die!
See how I die
Then I was inspired
Now, I'm sad and tired
After all, I've tried for three years, seems like ninety
Why then, am I scared to finish what I started?
What you started - I didn't start it
God, thy will is hard
But you hold every card
I will drink your cup of poison
Nail me to your cross and break me
Bleed me, beat me
Kill me
Take me, now
Before I change my mind..
#27464
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 06:30
Rankincountry
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SwobyJ wrote...
I'm of the mind that Harbinger has been speaking to Shepard and only Shepard throughout ME2.
I don't recall *anyone* in the series mentioning Harbinger speaking, only that he exists and is a Reaper.
Shepard may have been mentally compromised to some degree since ME2 or even ME1.
But he also has the tools to rise entirely above it and be victorious.
This occured to me as well. Thinking it through, during the conversation with Sovereign on Virmire in ME1, it's pretty clear that the squadmates can hear him. In ME2 no-one comments on any of the lines said during battle by posessed collectors during or afterwards. In Arrival, no-one is around to see Shepard talk to Harbinger. In ME3 there is no evidence that anyone but Shep hears the conversation with the reaper on Rannoch or many of the other reaper noises in various scenes and there's reaper sounds in the dreams.
Maybe this indicates either Habinger progressively getting into Shep's mind, or gradual mental deterioration, or both.
#27466
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 06:34
BansheeOwnage
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Just got back from a run. What's going on?
#27467
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 06:36
Guest_SwobyJ_*
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Rankincountry wrote...
SwobyJ wrote...
I'm of the mind that Harbinger has been speaking to Shepard and only Shepard throughout ME2.
I don't recall *anyone* in the series mentioning Harbinger speaking, only that he exists and is a Reaper.
Shepard may have been mentally compromised to some degree since ME2 or even ME1.
But he also has the tools to rise entirely above it and be victorious.
This occured to me as well. Thinking it through, during the conversation with Sovereign on Virmire in ME1, it's pretty clear that the squadmates can hear him. In ME2 no-one comments on any of the lines said during battle by posessed collectors during or afterwards. In Arrival, no-one is around to see Shepard talk to Harbinger. In ME3 there is no evidence that anyone but Shep hears the conversation with the reaper on Rannoch or many of the other reaper noises in various scenes and there's reaper sounds in the dreams.
Maybe this indicates either Habinger progressively getting into Shep's mind, or gradual mental deterioration, or both.
Well, Shepard is still talking to the Reaper on Rannoch with his squad around, so it would be weird.
But when it comes to Harbinger, totally.
My own theory is that Shepard is being progressively attacked through:
-indoctrination (which he is resistant to)
-hacking of his implants (which was foreshadowed in Overlord DLC?)
-and now, enthrallment, explaining the dream of an ending after playing Leviathan (Harbinger may have this power, but not other Reapers, as they could be under some form of control/indoctrination by Harbinger himself)
An interesting idea is that we only know of these things via:
-optional dialogue, scenes, audio in the game, NOT the main story or missions (even the dead Reaper in ME2 had its indoctrination videos as optional items to inspect)
-the comics and books
-DLC (Overlord, Arrival, Leviathan)
#27468
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 06:38
Samtheman63
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lol, synthesis and control
#27469
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 06:38
spotlessvoid
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Banshees don't run. They charge.BansheeOwnage wrote...
Just got back from a run. What's going on?
#27470
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 06:40
BansheeOwnage
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Wrong, sorry. Garrus sends you a message saying he is glad you were the one to talk to it through the app I forget the name of.Rankincountry wrote...
ME3 there is no evidence that anyone but Shep hears the conversation with the reaper on Rannoch or many of the other reaper noises in various scenes and there's reaper sounds in the dreams.
#27471
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 06:42
BansheeOwnage
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I was going really fast.spotlessvoid wrote...
Banshees don't run. They charge.BansheeOwnage wrote...
Just got back from a run. What's going on?
#27472
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 06:43
paxxton
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Did we get anyone to the beam?BansheeOwnage wrote...
Just got back from a run. What's going on?
#27473
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 06:45
paxxton
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Banshees DIScharge when they sent out that flashy field.
#27474
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 06:47
BansheeOwnage
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Negative. My entire force was decimated. Except me obviously. I had to dodge some red lasers!paxxton wrote...
Did we get anyone to the beam?BansheeOwnage wrote...
Just got back from a run. What's going on?
Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 30 septembre 2012 - 06:47 .
#27475
Posté 30 septembre 2012 - 06:48
Rankincountry
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BansheeOwnage wrote...
Wrong, sorry. Garrus sends you a message saying he is glad you were the one to talk to it through the app I forget the name of.Rankincountry wrote...
ME3 there is no evidence that anyone but Shep hears the conversation with the reaper on Rannoch or many of the other reaper noises in various scenes and there's reaper sounds in the dreams.
No need to apologise :happy: - I don't have an iThing so I can't get hold of that app. Which makes me feel like there must be loads of little tidbits like that which I'm missing out on. Grrrr.
