80611 réponses à ce sujet

[plfranke]

However, a huge part of IT is that "Bioware couldn't have screwed up that badly" a lot of ITers do not accept that they could, when in fact Bioware most definitely could have screwed up that badly. There have been worst endings than mass effect 3's literal ending. Literalists could say that you're failing to connect the dots that Bioware made a terrible ending, and there is evidence in the game to support their claims.

[Rifneno]

magnetite wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...
ME3 was a major focus on Shepard, and if IT is true, it's more about him than even the Reaper invasion, in a way.

I don't believe Bioware said they were going to make an IT confimation DLC. I could be wrong on that though, since they said there wasn't going to be a certain multiplayer DLC, yet it happened. Thing is, people don't need to wait for Bioware to confirm it. Some have just accepted that's what the ending was based on all the evidence that was gathered. 

I mean Leviathan centered around indoctrination and added certain hints to the ending being an indoctrination attempt, but they didn't flat out confirm it.

BW has said countless things that turned out to be untrue.  They told us ME3 would answer all the questions about the Reapers, then it didn't.  They told us that they'd never go into the Reapers' origins, then they did in their first SP DLC.  They're less trustworthy than your average politician.

[Rifneno]

Whenever I try to explain the difference between leaving things like whether Deckard is a replicant (something that that has no bearing on anything) up to speculations and leaving whether the mecha- Cthulhu army actually won (something that means trillions of people are going to die) are more than slightly different, it usually ends with arson. So I think I'll leave this one to someone else.

[Rob Psyence]

Bottom line, I'm tired of everyone's complaining, on all sides. To me the endings in any incarnation were not that bad at all. People put on these goggles of perfectionism. And truly, I believe people would've been complaining no matter what. Even if they provided "closure" in the most complete sense there will still be a big portion of the fan base that wouldn't be able to come to terms with it.

People that complain about more ME games being made also need to stuff it...they love the series but still want it to end? I don't understand it and never will because as long as its high quality content like the rest of the games, including 3, then I welcome new games with open arms, because I can't get enough of the Mass Effect universe.

[plfranke]

There's a difference between leaving something open and not finishing the story. Mass Effect 3 was a case of the latter. In inception, you wonder whether it was all a dream or reality, but the point of the movie was to say, what is reality to the main character. By the end, whether it was a dream or not, it was his reality and he had found happiness. Whether it was "reality" to us doesn't matter.

Mass Effect 3 on the other hand was a 100 hour plus game where we were the main character. Let me repeat for emphasis, we were the main character. That means what Shepard goes through we go through. Shepard's friends are our friends. His problems are our problems. Leaving interperetations so wide as, the story isn't finished, the Reapers are still at large and you're no closer to defeating them then ever compared to the Reapers have been defeated and the galaxy is saved and everything is back to normal is unacceptable. We've received no closure on any major characters that we've grown to love, in fact we've received the opposite because we may have learned something false happened to them. And I think Rifneno might agree that IT or not, letting that go on for so long is poor story telling.

Edit: Sorry this was so poorly written but I literally had 30 seconds to write it. Still though you should get the point.

Modifié par plfranke, 01 octobre 2012 - 07:36 .

[paxxton]

Rob Psyence wrote...

Bottom line, I'm tired of everyone's complaining, on all sides. To me the endings in any incarnation were not that bad at all. People put on these goggles of perfectionism. And truly, I believe people would've been complaining no matter what. Even if they provided "closure" in the most complete sense there will still be a big portion of the fan base that wouldn't be able to come to terms with it.

People that complain about more ME games being made also need to stuff it...they love the series but still want it to end? I don't understand it and never will because as long as its high quality content like the rest of the games, including 3, then I welcome new games with open arms, because I can't get enough of the Mass Effect universe.

Those people just take it too personally. They feel offended by how ME3 turned out and it influences their judgment in this case.

I quite liked the original ending (e.g. IMO Vendetta foreshadowed the Catalyst's existence on Thessia) until I saw the EC.  It was so much better that I can't even imagine BioWare could've created such a mediocre ending in the first place and not intend it to be more than it seems.

[Rob Psyence]

paxxton wrote...

Rob Psyence wrote...

Bottom line, I'm tired of everyone's complaining, on all sides. To me the endings in any incarnation were not that bad at all. People put on these goggles of perfectionism. And truly, I believe people would've been complaining no matter what. Even if they provided "closure" in the most complete sense there will still be a big portion of the fan base that wouldn't be able to come to terms with it.

People that complain about more ME games being made also need to stuff it...they love the series but still want it to end? I don't understand it and never will because as long as its high quality content like the rest of the games, including 3, then I welcome new games with open arms, because I can't get enough of the Mass Effect universe.

Those people just take it too personally. They feel offended by how ME3 turned out and it influences their judgment in this case.

I quite liked the original ending (e.g. IMO Vendetta foreshadowed the Catalyst's existence on Thessia) until I saw the EC.  It was so much better that I can't even imagine BioWare could've created such a mediocre ending in the first place and not intend it to be more than it seems.

I completely agree.

[paxxton]

I really don't get it. Why do you think it would take the krogan hundreds of years to star building a city?  I rather got an impression the slideshow showed the Galaxy at most several years into the future.

Modifié par paxxton, 01 octobre 2012 - 07:54 .

[paxxton]

I'm excited about the N7 day on Nov 7th, 2012, just a few weeks before the end of the world on Dec 21st, 2012. Maybe MP has some hidden surprises that will be unlocked on Nov 7th, like all the players on all the maps will be attacked by Reapers at the same time. Imagine that! Giant space monsters coming down from the sky shooting lasers. Then they dock above your heads and you get something like that scene in ME1 outside the elevator. Of course, the lasers could instakill you like in London.

Modifié par paxxton, 01 octobre 2012 - 08:16 .

[spotlessvoid]

Rob Psyence wrote...

Bottom line, I'm tired of everyone's complaining, on all sides. To me the endings in any incarnation were not that bad at all. People put on these goggles of perfectionism. And truly, I believe people would've been complaining no matter what. Even if they provided "closure" in the most complete sense there will still be a big portion of the fan base that wouldn't be able to come to terms with it.

People that complain about more ME games being made also need to stuff it...they love the series but still want it to end? I don't understand it and never will because as long as its high quality content like the rest of the games, including 3, then I welcome new games with open arms, because I can't get enough of the Mass Effect universe.

Do you remember the original endings. Then you wait months for a monologue and pictutes. No way that isnt terrible by any reasonable standard.

[spotlessvoid]

Magnetite.....you cant use literal slideshow closure to argue closure for IT.

[gunslinger_ruiz]

paxxton wrote...

I'm excited about the N7 day on Nov 7th, 2012, just a few weeks before the end of the world on Dec 21st, 2012. Maybe MP has some hidden surprises that will be unlocked on Nov 7th, like all the players on all the maps will be attacked by Reapers at the same time. Imagine that! Giant space monsters coming down from the sky shooting lasers. Then they dock above your heads and you get something like that scene in ME1 outside the elevator. Of course, the lasers could instakill you like in London.

That'd be really cool to see, but more than likely we'll get some in game challenges in MP. Maybe some kind of celebrations at gaming locations in the real world (game stop, etc). I'm curious whether or not Bioware is going to "celebrate" it in other games with event, like SWTOR maybe release some N7 inspired gear. Which would be freakin cool for me cuz I play the hell out of SWTOR.

Wonder if there will be press releases for future DLC as well hmm.

[paxxton]

Gunslinger, you killed the thread this time.

[RavenEyry]

plfranke wrote...

However, a huge part of IT is that "Bioware couldn't have screwed up that badly" a lot of ITers do not accept that they could, when in fact Bioware most definitely could have screwed up that badly. There have been worst endings than mass effect 3's literal ending. Literalists could say that you're failing to connect the dots that Bioware made a terrible ending, and there is evidence in the game to support their claims.

While the level of screwing up is debatable, it is not possible that everything is the result of a screw up. I don't say that as blind faith, I mean there is a lot of stuff that can't be accidents such as the relay explosions starting in the wrong place. If it was just going in random directions then obviously they didn't care to be accurate, but it follows the paths of the relay network exactly, yet starts in the wrong place.

[Rifneno]

Rob Psyence wrote...

Bottom line, I'm tired of everyone's complaining, on all sides. To me the endings in any incarnation were not that bad at all. People put on these goggles of perfectionism. And truly, I believe people would've been complaining no matter what. Even if they provided "closure" in the most complete sense there will still be a big portion of the fan base that wouldn't be able to come to terms with it.

People that complain about more ME games being made also need to stuff it...they love the series but still want it to end? I don't understand it and never will because as long as its high quality content like the rest of the games, including 3, then I welcome new games with open arms, because I can't get enough of the Mass Effect universe.

****** poor logic. Yes, people would've been complaining anyway. That doesn't mean current complaints aren't valid. Most people complain about their jobs. Somebody cleaning toilets for minimum wage has a right to complain: their job does suck. And guess what? These endings suck.

They weren't that bad to you? LOL. Just LOL. A series that's always tried to keep things believable and scientifically plausible ends with a literal Deus Ex Machina popping out of nowhere and telling you jumping into a beam will rewrite the way life works on its most basic levels for the entire galaxy, and that's not bad to you? <Shepard> I should go. </Shepard>

plfranke wrote...

There's a difference between leaving something open and not finishing the story. Mass Effect 3 was a case of the latter. In inception, you wonder whether it was all a dream or reality, but the point of the movie was to say, what is reality to the main character. By the end, whether it was a dream or not, it was his reality and he had found happiness. Whether it was "reality" to us doesn't matter.

Mass Effect 3 on the other hand was a 100 hour plus game where we were the main character. Let me repeat for emphasis, we were the main character. That means what Shepard goes through we go through. Shepard's friends are our friends. His problems are our problems. Leaving interperetations so wide as, the story isn't finished, the Reapers are still at large and you're no closer to defeating them then ever compared to the Reapers have been defeated and the galaxy is saved and everything is back to normal is unacceptable. We've received no closure on any major characters that we've grown to love, in fact we've received the opposite because we may have learned something false happened to them. And I think Rifneno might agree that IT or not, letting that go on for so long is poor story telling.

Edit: Sorry this was so poorly written but I literally had 30 seconds to write it. Still though you should get the point.

I definitely agree that they're dragging it out way too long. Anyone remember what their response was when we first started trying to get answers from them in early March? "We want to wait until everyone has a chance to play the game for themselves." I don't know about anyone else but I sure didn't expect this to still be going on in October with no end in sight. They made it sound like they'd answer all our questions in a few weeks.

And Plfranke put it well there in the first sentence. This is not leaving something open to interpretation, this is an unfinished story. As much as I love IT, I'd even rather they told us that IT is not correct and the ending was 100% literal than leave us with an unfinished story. I said for years before ME3 that the only ending I flat out refuse to accept is an ending where the Reapers are not stopped. And that's what we have right now with IT. Shepard is waking up in what is very likely London. The Crucible is both logically and implied to be a Reaper or Leviathan trap. We've got the majority of the galaxy's military might engaged with the Reapers in a battle that they cannot win. As it is right now, the Reapers have won. That is not acceptable.

magnetite wrote...

If people are expecting a complete ending rewrite at this point, I wouldn't count on it. They pretty much said if people didn't like the EC, time to move on so to speak. Sorry to put it like that, but that's what they said.

I could live to be as old as Javik and not understand how people still believe every word BW says. It is truly beyond me.

[RavenEyry]

Rifneno wrote...

magnetite wrote...

If people are expecting a complete ending rewrite at this point, I wouldn't count on it. They pretty much said if people didn't like the EC, time to move on so to speak. Sorry to put it like that, but that's what they said.

I could live to be as old as Javik and not understand how people still believe every word BW says. It is truly beyond me.

I'm agreeing with Rif on this one, this very page for example has mentions of Bioware's previous lies.

[Rifneno]

RavenEyry wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

magnetite wrote...

If people are expecting a complete ending rewrite at this point, I wouldn't count on it. They pretty much said if people didn't like the EC, time to move on so to speak. Sorry to put it like that, but that's what they said.

I could live to be as old as Javik and not understand how people still believe every word BW says. It is truly beyond me.

I'm agreeing with Rif on this one, this very page for example has mentions of Bioware's previous lies.

Skyrim reference!

[plfranke]

@Rob "I'm tired of all this complaining" *Proceeds to Complain*

@Mag
I never said anything about Shepard walking into the sunset with his LI. What I was referring to was Shepard waking up in a pile of Rubble that looks suspiciously like concrete and nothing like the Citadel, taking a breath, and the game promptly ending. Or, how about Leviathan the dlc I paid an extra $10 for? Is their story just over? That's only taking it from a literal perspective though. From an IT perspective, there was no closure whatsoever and we have no idea how we're going to defeat the Reapers. To say it's a valid interperetation means we just as likely defeated the Reapers as it is that we didn't defeat the Reapers and have, as Bailey would say, "No plan and no chance"

[Restrider]

I just skimmed over MB's thread. I have to say that I do not really support such actions. If some players do not like this kind of interpretation we established here, so be it. You are not going to change that by opening threads provoking flame wars. In the best case scenario, nothing will be gained. In the worst case, you shed a bad light onto the supporters of this thread.
A few posts have been interesting. Though Iconclaste has his certain attitude, he brings up a list of logical flaws that are frequently happening here and everywhere. Since he posted the list in this thread, I suggest that the backbone of the theory should be tested using his list of logical flaws.
I think it is better to have a lower amount of supporting facts that have been severely tested and can withstand any kind of counterargument than having a large amount of farfetched hints that are coincidential at best. These base facts should be then used to create some kind of FAQ regarding IT. I think keeping it simple and basic is the best way to show that IT is not (only) lunatic strawgrasping.

Oh, and one poster said that the IT would have more plotholes than literal POV. I don't know. The only thing left open is the actual end to the reaper wars. IT rather closes all other plotholes literal POV has.

[plfranke]

Restrider wrote...

I just skimmed over MB's thread. I have to say that I do not really support such actions. If some players do not like this kind of interpretation we established here, so be it. You are not going to change that by opening threads provoking flame wars. In the best case scenario, nothing will be gained. In the worst case, you shed a bad light onto the supporters of this thread.
A few posts have been interesting. Though Iconclaste has his certain attitude, he brings up a list of logical flaws that are frequently happening here and everywhere. Since he posted the list in this thread, I suggest that the backbone of the theory should be tested using his list of logical flaws.
I think it is better to have a lower amount of supporting facts that have been severely tested and can withstand any kind of counterargument than having a large amount of farfetched hints that are coincidential at best. These base facts should be then used to create some kind of FAQ regarding IT. I think keeping it simple and basic is the best way to show that IT is not (only) lunatic strawgrasping.

Oh, and one poster said that the IT would have more plotholes than literal POV. I don't know. The only thing left open is the actual end to the reaper wars. IT rather closes all other plotholes literal POV has.

As I said before, his list does not apply to this thread at all. Ironically, many of the things he said we do in his list, he did in the list itself.

Secondly, I did not say that IT opened plotholes, I said it left an unfinished story. Of course, they can finish the story. However, the point was to say that finishing the story a year after it comes out is not a great way to treat your fans.

[ElSuperGecko]

Restrider wrote...
I just skimmed over MB's thread. I have to say that I do not really support such actions. If some players do not like this kind of interpretation we established here, so be it. You are not going to change that by opening threads provoking flame wars. In the best case scenario, nothing will be gained. In the worst case, you shed a bad light onto the supporters of this thread.

Agreed.  What drew me to the Indoctrination Theory thread in the first place was the civilised discussion of the story of Mass Effect 3 and the various interpretations of the endings.  We look at the game, the various sequences, cutscenes and conversations and try to find meaning in them.  We try to make sense of what we've been given.

There's no reason or need to deliberately provoke others into arguments, even if others are trying to do that to us.  It's counterproductive.