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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!


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#28001
Davik Kang

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smokingotter1 wrote...
The fact that the decision chamber looks like the conduit run leads me to logically conclude that Shepard doesn't actually make it to the citadel..... or the only way to make it is to choose synthesis.

Since the reapers are already indoctrinating Shepard it would make sense that the only way Harbinger would let Shepard anywhere near the "destroy all reapers" device would be if he submitted to the reaper ideology.

Very true.  I think the chamber looks like the Earth run, the Citadel, and some other things, because that's how Shepard's mind makes sense of it under full-on hallucination.  But it definitely resembles the Earth run the most.  Only thing I'd say is, why dream of the citadel (in that form) in-between?  There's no recent premonition of the Citadel looking like that.

Also, I don't actually think either Harbinder or starkid 'let' Shepard get there at all, but that's a separate issue.

#28002
masster blaster

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Hey Otter do you want some of my birthday cakk, or cookie cake?

#28003
Raistlin Majare 1992

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Bill Casey wrote...

(On Thessia)

Illusive Man: Shepard.

Shepard: How did you find this place?

Illusive Man: The Archives. Or did your Shadow Broker miss that one?

Liara: Show yourself. I promise I won't miss.



Also, the Sur'Kesh mole is in STG.


Salarian 1: There was some outbound comm traffic twenty minutes ago from inside the base.

Salarian 2: And?

Salarian 1: A burst transmission, fully encoded, with no identity signature.

Salarian 2: No signature? That's against protocol.


Interesting, especially tne bit about Liara missing it. That implies TIM did mess with the Archives on Mars before we arrived...implications unpleasant...

#28004
Restrider

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Davik Kang wrote...


Yeah.  My current understanding has everything being real, or almost real, until the Decision Chamber, which I see as a near-total hallucination (but with genuine, corresponding actions - Shepard is not unconscious).

But what I meant was, has anyone in here, IT supporter or otherwise, ever been of the view that the Citadel section is actually happening, but that TIM and Anderson are severe hallucinations that appear to be talking?  Again, it's not exactly what I think, but it would kind of work in that

Anderson represents good conscience
TIM represents bad conscience
Shepard has internal conflict as to whether she really should destroy the Reapers, now that she can.

Good evidence for this is the gunshot wound - Shepard appears to be bleeding from her torso at the end, which is where she shot Anderson - and this could be construed as literally shooting herself, or more a metaphor for the inner turmoil making her even weaker.

Again, not actually what I think, but I wonder if anyone does think this, or has any thoughts?  Doesn't seem totally implausible to me.


So, does your interpretation still contain the fact that:
a) Shepard is on the Citadel ?
B) After making your choice RGB happens ?

The way I see it, with a) and B) being answered with yes, it is flawed like Deception Theory for the following reasons:
1. Why does the Kid offer Destroy (and not just a mock-up Destroy)?
2. How does Shepard survive Destroy?

A possible answer for 1. could be that the Kid is actually following Leviathan's agenda (Bill Casey brought this up). They would prefer to subjugate everyone:
- through Synthesis
- through controlling the reapers through an enthralled individual (though this kind of makes no sense, since the individual would change from being organic to synthetic)
- get rid of the reapers with Destroy and try to subjugate the rest of the galaxy the hard way

A possible answer for 2. could be that the actual decision did not take place at the supposed ground zero of the Destroy explosion. This could be a way to let Shepard survive on the Citadel.

I still prefer the full hallucination approach.

#28005
paxxton

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Happy birthday, masster blaster.

#28006
smokingotter1

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masster blaster wrote...

Hey Otter do you want some of my birthday cakk, or cookie cake?


Sure if it's crab cake, also birthday happy!

#28007
paxxton

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

(On Thessia)

Illusive Man: Shepard.

Shepard: How did you find this place?

Illusive Man: The Archives. Or did your Shadow Broker miss that one?

Liara: Show yourself. I promise I won't miss.



Also, the Sur'Kesh mole is in STG.


Salarian 1: There was some outbound comm traffic twenty minutes ago from inside the base.

Salarian 2: And?

Salarian 1: A burst transmission, fully encoded, with no identity signature.

Salarian 2: No signature? That's against protocol.


Interesting, especially tne bit about Liara missing it. That implies TIM did mess with the Archives on Mars before we arrived...implications unpleasant...

TIM blows Liara's cover. She hid crucial information from Shepard and tried to brainwash him in London.

Modifié par paxxton, 01 octobre 2012 - 05:29 .


#28008
smokingotter1

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Davik Kang wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...
The fact that the decision chamber looks like the conduit run leads me to logically conclude that Shepard doesn't actually make it to the citadel..... or the only way to make it is to choose synthesis.

Since the reapers are already indoctrinating Shepard it would make sense that the only way Harbinger would let Shepard anywhere near the "destroy all reapers" device would be if he submitted to the reaper ideology.

Very true.  I think the chamber looks like the Earth run, the Citadel, and some other things, because that's how Shepard's mind makes sense of it under full-on hallucination.  But it definitely resembles the Earth run the most.  Only thing I'd say is, why dream of the citadel (in that form) in-between?  There's no recent premonition of the Citadel looking like that.

Also, I don't actually think either Harbinder or starkid 'let' Shepard get there at all, but that's a separate issue.


Legion: "We have installed filters to allow you to make visual sense of this server's raw data"

Remember the Geth consensus mission. It's when you enter the Geth hivemind to get rid of the reaper code. Even though it is all symbolic (for Shepard to make sense of the data) the real world concequences are real, Shepard is actually deleting reaper code even if the representations are symbolic. This is foreshadowing for the Citadel "in-between" scene.

We see red everywhere, dead soldiers....or is it blood cells and aspects of Shepard's mind already destroyed?
We see keepers....or is it really the reaper influence rewiring his brain?
We see tubes, are are they blood vessels?
We see electric parts of the Shadow broker vessel.... or are we seeing neurons firing?

We are at the front where we meet TIM/ANDERSON..... or is this the Fruedian trio?

The prefrontal cortex, the part of the human brain that handle decision making is at the front of the brain, could that be where you meet TIM/Anderson?

The prefrontal cortex is part of the human limbic system, the part of the brain the Mass Effect codex specificially states that the reapers hijack.

It would make sense that an organic mind compared to the geth consensus
would not be as clean, would probably be a bit more chaotic and
blanketed in symbolism.... the citadel "in-between" scene is in Shepard's brain.

Symbolic representation, real world results.

Modifié par smokingotter1, 01 octobre 2012 - 05:31 .


#28009
Davik Kang

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Restrider wrote...

So, does your interpretation still contain the fact that:
a) Shepard is on the Citadel ?
B) After making your choice RGB happens ?

The way I see it, with a) and B) being answered with yes, it is flawed like Deception Theory for the following reasons:
1. Why does the Kid offer Destroy (and not just a mock-up Destroy)?
2. How does Shepard survive Destroy?

Hello there Restrider.

The interpretation is pretty different to what I've seen so far on these boards.  Once I've learned more about IT, Deception and some of the Literal theories, I'll probably make a thread for it.  Atm I'm just worried that the OP will be as long as Twilight God's.

To answer:  a) yes, -  B) yes (sort of), ...and

1. He doesn't :blink: (or, he can't not offer it)
2. I have no answer to this yet.  But thanks for your suggestion, I'll think about it.  The main problem is, it looked to me like Shep was on Earth.

But the thing about the TIM/DA hallucinations isn't actually my current interpretation, I just wondered what you guys thought about it.  It still makes sense with the rest of my initial interpretation - changes it but doesn't defeat it.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 02 octobre 2012 - 12:35 .


#28010
Davik Kang

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smokingotter1 wrote...
We see red everywhere, dead soldiers....or is it blood cells and aspects of Shepard's mind already destroyed?
We see keepers....or is it really the reaper influence rewiring his brain?
We see tubes, are are they blood vessels?
We see electric parts of the Shadow broker vessel.... or are we seeing neurons firing?

We are at the front where we meet TIM/ANDERSON..... or is this the Fruedian trio?

The prefrontal cortex, the part of the human brain that handle decision making is at the front of the brain, could that be where you meet TIM/Anderson?

The prefrontal cortex is part of the human limbic system, the part of the brain the Mass Effect codex specificially states that the reapers hijack.

It would make sense that an organic mind compared to the geth consensus
would not be as clean, would probably be a bit more chaotic and
blanketed in symbolism.... the citadel "in-between" scene is in Shepard's brain.

Symbolic representation, real world results.

That's very clever, thanks for that.  I'll have to have another look when I play through (hope it won't be too long!)  The scene does resemble a brain a lot, it's clear just from what you wrote.  The only thing I'll say for now is that, you could see that as being because the beam actually leads into a chamber that is effectively the Citadel's 'brain'.  Hmm that's also a good idea.  Anyway thank you.

#28011
TheConstantOne

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Anyone ever notice how the loading screen for Omega in ME 2 is involves a human DNA strand? This could be a subtle reference to the Mordin recruitment mission, I suppose,,, but what if it was a hint about where the writers were going with Omega: making the station a Reaper device? And if, as I've said what feels like hundreds of times before, Omega is a prototype Crucible...then I'm hoping that the Omega DLC might reveal why the Reapers are loading all of those humans onto the Citadel through the Conduit beam

#28012
masster blaster

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Thanks Otter, and Paxxton. And It's An Oreo cake, and a cookie cake. But I also have cheese cake. Also I agree Otter there is alot of symbolisum at the end.

#28013
masster blaster

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Okay guys I have to go again lunch time is about to end so see ya.

#28014
paxxton

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TheConstantOne wrote...

Anyone ever notice how the loading screen for Omega in ME 2 is involves a human DNA strand? This could be a subtle reference to the Mordin recruitment mission, I suppose,,, but what if it was a hint about where the writers were going with Omega: making the station a Reaper device? And if, as I've said what feels like hundreds of times before, Omega is a prototype Crucible...then I'm hoping that the Omega DLC might reveal why the Reapers are loading all of those humans onto the Citadel through the Conduit beam

Omega is the anti-Crucible, like a pole in a battery.

#28015
smokingotter1

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Davik Kang wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...
We see red everywhere, dead soldiers....or is it blood cells and aspects of Shepard's mind already destroyed?
We see keepers....or is it really the reaper influence rewiring his brain?
We see tubes, are are they blood vessels?
We see electric parts of the Shadow broker vessel.... or are we seeing neurons firing?

We are at the front where we meet TIM/ANDERSON..... or is this the Fruedian trio?

The prefrontal cortex, the part of the human brain that handle decision making is at the front of the brain, could that be where you meet TIM/Anderson?

The prefrontal cortex is part of the human limbic system, the part of the brain the Mass Effect codex specificially states that the reapers hijack.

It would make sense that an organic mind compared to the geth consensus
would not be as clean, would probably be a bit more chaotic and
blanketed in symbolism.... the citadel "in-between" scene is in Shepard's brain.

Symbolic representation, real world results.

That's very clever, thanks for that.  I'll have to have another look when I play through (hope it won't be too long!)  The scene does resemble a brain a lot, it's clear just from what you wrote.  The only thing I'll say for now is that, you could see that as being because the beam actually leads into a chamber that is effectively the Citadel's 'brain'.  Hmm that's also a good idea.  Anyway thank you.


Now we get into some heavy meta mind blowing stuff.

When Shepard opens the citadel doors it is symbolic of Shepard opening his eyes (or his mind).  

Remember Mass Effect 2 DLC Overlord where Shepard gets a reaper overlay of reality?

Posted Image
When Shepard shoots the geth with the reaper overlay they break up into pieces, it's all very neat and clean, that doesn't happen in real life but it does in Shepard's geth overlay. Geth overlay of reality or synthetic overlay....everything appeared digitalized. Clean.

Posted Image
Credit to Magumiusa....I think that is the right u/n

Since the reapers are synthetic-organic hybrids it makes sense that a reaper overlay would have elements of both being very clean (like the geth overlay) and also symbolic (organic).

That is why control looks like you are walking into a giant hand

Posted Image
Seriously am I the only one who sees a hand? You can even see the thumb above the green line.

Also same reason why destroy is shooting at a glass tube. Same tube you shoot at when fighting the human reaper. Reaper tube has wires and tubes running around it, tubes= reaper tech.

This is all old stuff to some of you, but you might make sense of it.

Because there are elements of the conduit run, instead of being something completely foreign like the citadel/Tim/Anderson leads me to logically conclude that the decision chamber is in fact a reaper induced overlay of reality.

edit: Also because of Shepard's precarious position having had most of his team wiped out by Harbinger, Harbinger still probably standing, and Shepard having been blasted, this is all a test of Shepard...........by the reapers! (dramatic music)

The reapers are testing to see how open Shepard's mind is to indoctrination. If Shepard chooses control he/she is still hostile to the reapers, but open to the futile idea of controlling them. She/he can still be used, but cannot be trusted into the citadel. The beam stays the same and stays on. They don't have direct control over Shepard, Shepard is indoctrinated.

If he chooses synthesis Shepard shows he/she has embraced reaper ideology, she/he is approved to board the citadel. Notice the citadel beam grows wider when you choose synthesis. The beam represents reaper connection with Shepard, it grows stronger, they have direct control over him.

If Shepard continues to resist and picks destroy....simple Shepard is destroyed "Shepard, you could have been useful" The beam dies.

Refuse is very interesting. Shepard sees through the overlay illusion, says I'm not playing I know you are influencing me. Shepard refuses to let himself be controlled by the reapers, he won't admit the reaper ideology is correct in order to gain entrance to the citadel. The beam dries up. The reapers win.

Modifié par smokingotter1, 01 octobre 2012 - 06:43 .


#28016
Davik Kang

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smokingotter1 wrote...
snip

Awesome.  I have to go out now but I will check it all out properly when I come back.  Reaper-control-hand... very interesting!

#28017
BansheeOwnage

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Mass Effect is an epic trilogy with a character-driven story. It is extremely in-depth, and surprisingly grounded in science for a scifi. I love its characters places and technology. You have to make difficult decisions, and those decisions have vast consequences. After 150+ hours of gameplay, I couldn't wait to experience the finale of my efforts. The culmination of all of my choices, and most importantly, closure for my favourite characters and the Shepard I created.


Then I finally got to the end, and:

SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE! Posted Image

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 01 octobre 2012 - 06:41 .


#28018
BansheeOwnage

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

(On Thessia)

Illusive Man: Shepard.

Shepard: How did you find this place?

Illusive Man: The Archives. Or did your Shadow Broker miss that one?

Liara: Show yourself. I promise I won't miss.



Also, the Sur'Kesh mole is in STG.


Salarian 1: There was some outbound comm traffic twenty minutes ago from inside the base.

Salarian 2: And?

Salarian 1: A burst transmission, fully encoded, with no identity signature.

Salarian 2: No signature? That's against protocol.


Interesting, especially tne bit about Liara missing it. That implies TIM did mess with the Archives on Mars before we arrived...implications unpleasant...

Not necessarily. Remember, TIM had EVA erase as much of the archives as possible, so Shepard wouldn't have access to all of it. Still, I get your point, and I definitely think TIM messed with something. Probably Vendetta.

#28019
MaximizedAction

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twitter.com/GambleMike/status/252834155732299776

"We'll be patching me3 on Thursday. It will be our largest patch, and has been in dev. for months. It also sets us up for future...things :)"

Developed for months, huh? Setting up for future things, huh?

spekuleition pls

Modifié par MaximizedAction, 01 octobre 2012 - 06:44 .


#28020
Raistlin Majare 1992

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MaximizedAction wrote...

twitter.com/GambleMike/status/252834155732299776

"We'll be patching me3 on Thursday. It will be our largest patch, and has been in dev. for months. It also sets us up for future...things :)"

Developed for months, huh? Setting up for future things, huh?

spekuleition pls


Sounds like something a bit more than a standard MP patch...but if it was a singleplayer expansion we would probably have heard something before...at least if it was one we needed to pay for which this is not.

And the wording...sets us up for future things...implications...interesting.

#28021
BansheeOwnage

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MaximizedAction wrote...

twitter.com/GambleMike/status/252834155732299776

"We'll be patching me3 on Thursday. It will be our largest patch, and has been in dev. for months. It also sets us up for future...things :)"

Developed for months, huh? Setting up for future things, huh?

spekuleition pls

Crap! I thought it was going to be on tuesday and released with DLC! Oh well. I still think it involves DLC though. Collectors. Posted Image

Also, Evil-Chris said patch notes today. Some cool MP stuff like fixing Concussive Shot, Singularity, etc.

But that definitely sounds like they're putting in a DLC, or part of one, with the patch. My guess is now Collectors next tuesday!

Hi Maximized! Long time. You're (kind of) in one of my videos. Posted Image

#28022
AresKeith

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

twitter.com/GambleMike/status/252834155732299776

"We'll be patching me3 on Thursday. It will be our largest patch, and has been in dev. for months. It also sets us up for future...things :)"

Developed for months, huh? Setting up for future things, huh?

spekuleition pls

Crap! I thought it was going to be on tuesday and released with DLC! Oh well. I still think it involves DLC though. Collectors. Posted Image

Also, Evil-Chris said patch notes today. Some cool MP stuff like fixing Concussive Shot, Singularity, etc.

But that definitely sounds like they're putting in a DLC, or part of one, with the patch. My guess is now Collectors next tuesday!

Hi Maximized! Long time. You're (kind of) in one of my videos. Posted Image


why they keep holding off on Spectres Posted Image

#28023
BansheeOwnage

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Attention! Patch notes are up actually. And according to Gamble, this foxes certain SP things as well. Hopefully Leviathan's end music...

#28024
401 Kill

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MaximizedAction wrote...

twitter.com/GambleMike/status/252834155732299776

"We'll be patching me3 on Thursday. It will be our largest patch, and has been in dev. for months. It also sets us up for future...things :)"

Developed for months, huh? Setting up for future things, huh?

spekuleition pls

Months? Sets up for future? I hope it includes som DLC scripts like the EC did for Leviathan.

#28025
BansheeOwnage

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401 Kill wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

twitter.com/GambleMike/status/252834155732299776

"We'll be patching me3 on Thursday. It will be our largest patch, and has been in dev. for months. It also sets us up for future...things :)"

Developed for months, huh? Setting up for future things, huh?

spekuleition pls

Months? Sets up for future? I hope it includes som DLC scripts like the EC did for Leviathan.

Good point.