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[Xilizhra]

I personally advocate for all three endings to avoid indoctrination, because none of them actually fit with the Reapers' ideals. Destroy is obvious, though in a way it's actually the most Reaper-like because of the accompanying genocide. Control is exerting your own will over the Reapers and forcing them to break their cycle. Synthesis is rendering the cycle impossible to continue by destroying the Reapers' superiority and any claims of being "beyond" the rest of the galaxy. Only Refusal is truly failing to stop the Reapers and allowing them to continue doing what they're doing.

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

I personally advocate for all three endings to avoid indoctrination, because none of them actually fit with the Reapers' ideals. Destroy is obvious, though in a way it's actually the most Reaper-like because of the accompanying genocide. Control is exerting your own will over the Reapers and forcing them to break their cycle. Synthesis is rendering the cycle impossible to continue by destroying the Reapers' superiority and any claims of being "beyond" the rest of the galaxy. Only Refusal is truly failing to stop the Reapers and allowing them to continue doing what they're doing.

Synthesis is genetic rape on a galactic scale, nothing more, nothing less.
Control is levels of gullibility that I lack the words to describe.

Anyone picking either of these should be treated to a short cutscene of their husk Shepard killing their crew and/or LI followed by the Reapers destroying all life in the galaxy.  Maybe a short "you fool lol" speech from Harbinger for good measure.

[Xilizhra]

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I personally advocate for all three endings to avoid indoctrination, because none of them actually fit with the Reapers' ideals. Destroy is obvious, though in a way it's actually the most Reaper-like because of the accompanying genocide. Control is exerting your own will over the Reapers and forcing them to break their cycle. Synthesis is rendering the cycle impossible to continue by destroying the Reapers' superiority and any claims of being "beyond" the rest of the galaxy. Only Refusal is truly failing to stop the Reapers and allowing them to continue doing what they're doing.

Synthesis is genetic rape on a galactic scale, nothing more, nothing less.
Control is levels of gullibility that I lack the words to describe.

Anyone picking either of these should be treated to a short cutscene of their husk Shepard killing their crew and/or LI followed by the Reapers destroying all life in the galaxy.  Maybe a short "you fool lol" speech from Harbinger for good measure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anyway, I had a new idea for how IT may work: the Catalyst is genuine, and trying to help Shepard. Just not in the literal way. Basically, what it's trying to do is break through the fog of indoctrination by presenting Shepard with what are basically three new options. Why? Ask yourself: why did Saren and TIM fall? Because of their ideals? Not quite; because they were indoctrinated and those ideals were using means that would never succeed. And this failure, this succumbing, is summed up in Refusal. It's a Shepard who only wanted to destroy the Reapers on her own terms, a Shepard who believed, in the words of Javik, that the "war would end with [her] honor intact." The refusal to act differently in the face of annihilation is the ultimate knell of indoctrination's success, and I believe this is best summed up when even the Catalyst's vision fades, replaced by a Reaper's voice.
What the other three options are, ultimately, don't matter. All of them stop the Reapers in a different way, and that's what matters; that Shepard, ultimately, was more dedicated to stopping the Reapers than holding to the ideals and paradigms that had since become corrupted by indoctrination. Adapting through willpower to to break through the Reapers.

[Rifneno]

I stopped reading at "Catalyst is genuine and trying to help Shepard".



"The relationship is symbiotic, organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel, the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither! I am a vision of the future Shepard, the evolution of all organic life!" - Saren "Marauder Beta" Arterius

But yeah, synthesis sounds awesome and totally scientifically plausible!

[Davik Kang]

plfranke wrote...
I think it's debatable, but it's one of those debates that are gone into simply for the sake of arguing than coming to better understanding. In the literal interperetation of the game there are 2 characters who tell you the Reapers can be controlled. First is the Illusive Man who in the literal interperetation is proven to be indoctrinated. You're also told that in all past cycles there has been an indoctrinated splinter group who believes the Reapers should be controlled, and they always cause that civilization to lose. Then there's the Catalyst who is the leader of the Reapers and the very same character that tells you Synthesis is a viable option. 

There's just too much against control for it to be plausible. Both of these characters for the reasons mentioned above are not worthy of any trust. Without them, all you have are a bunch of main characters telling you that destroy is the only way forward.

Yeah I think the same.  I wasn't trying to say that I think Control is a good option, I think it's terrible, but what I meant is that it is open to interpretation that Control is the right thing to do.  It's not what I think, but that doesn't make it objectively wrong, if you interpret the ending differently.
It's obvious that the whole TIM scene is trying to tell you "only indoctrinated people would pick control!" and I agreed.  But you could argue that the final scene is actually a genuine attempt to advocate Control, and not just an attempt at indoctrination.
(I do think it's indoctrination btw and will eventually get round to making a thread about it).

Sareth Cousland wrote...
Remember EDI asking Shepard whether he expected the team to disobey an order on moral grounds? The paragon option was to say yes - renegade was to say no. Seems like foreshadowing of an indoctrinated Shepard to me.

Well that is interesting for quite controversial reasons!  Because it is the same as the final choice - paragon is to ignore Alliance orders on moral grounds; renegade is to stick to your orders and kill dem Reapers!  Interesting.  Still gonna kill the Reapers though 

Rifneno wrote...
Synthesis is genetic rape on a galactic scale, nothing more, nothing less.
Control is levels of gullibility that I lack the words to describe.

Anyone picking either of these should be treated to a short cutscene of their husk Shepard killing their crew and/or LI followed by the Reapers destroying all life in the galaxy.  Maybe a short "you fool lol" speech from Harbinger for good measure.

Whoa relax dude.  It was just an opinion.

[Davik Kang]

Xilizhra wrote...
Anyway, I had a new idea for how IT may work: the Catalyst is genuine, and trying to help Shepard. Just not in the literal way. Basically, what it's trying to do is break through the fog of indoctrination by presenting Shepard with what are basically three new options. Why? Ask yourself: why did Saren and TIM fall? Because of their ideals? Not quite; because they were indoctrinated and those ideals were using means that would never succeed. And this failure, this succumbing, is summed up in Refusal. It's a Shepard who only wanted to destroy the Reapers on her own terms, a Shepard who believed, in the words of Javik, that the "war would end with [her] honor intact." The refusal to act differently in the face of annihilation is the ultimate knell of indoctrination's success, and I believe this is best summed up when even the Catalyst's vision fades, replaced by a Reaper's voice.
What the other three options are, ultimately, don't matter. All of them stop the Reapers in a different way, and that's what matters; that Shepard, ultimately, was more dedicated to stopping the Reapers than holding to the ideals and paradigms that had since become corrupted by indoctrination. Adapting through willpower to to break through the Reapers.

Interesting... new theory maybe?  "Non-Refusal Theory" = NRT?

[Rifneno]

Davik Kang wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
Synthesis is genetic rape on a galactic scale, nothing more, nothing less.
Control is levels of gullibility that I lack the words to describe.

Anyone picking either of these should be treated to a short cutscene of their husk Shepard killing their crew and/or LI followed by the Reapers destroying all life in the galaxy.  Maybe a short "you fool lol" speech from Harbinger for good measure.

Whoa relax dude.  It was just an opinion.

I am relaxed.  That has always been my opinion.  This should not be a "there's no wrong answer" choice.  This should be a "you decided to play hide the omnitool with Morinth" choice.  I tire of the hand holding they give us where no choice is wrong.  Resisting indoctrination should be hard.  And the price for failure should be the supreme one.  Even if It proves to be true and they release post-IT content, even if it's all great, I'll still be very off put if they go the "no one's ever wrong and you're all special and you can be whatever you want" route and make it so synthesis and control Shepards get anything more than a cutscene like you get if you run out of time on Arrival.

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Don't forget how Shep's body changes in control and synthesis honey badger. I'm surprised more people weren't... shocked by seeing that

[Rifneno]

On an unrelated note, the analysis for the breath scene always puts it at either London or the Citadel. Has any effort been made to see if anywhere else fits?

I ask this because I can't see how this works out if we just get put back in London. The more I think about it, the more I think the illusion has to start before passing through the Sol relay. The great majority of the galaxy's military power is in the Sol system and engaging a massive Reaper force that they cannot defeat conventionally. All eggs are in the basket of the Crucible. But the Crucible is almost certainly a trap. So even if Shepard wakes up in London, how do we win? There's no reasonable path to victory open to us right there, and this is the only chance we get. So... what? The only thing I can think of is that we get put back to before we foolishly sent out omnifleet on an impossible suicide mission. This makes some sense as Cronos Station and earlier parts of London have quite a few questionable segments that may imply things aren't real there either. The only major problem with this notion is the breathe scene, which strongly implies London. Thoughts?

[Xilizhra]

"The relationship is symbiotic, organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel, the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither! I am a vision of the future Shepard, the evolution of all organic life!" - Saren "Marauder Beta" Arterius

The point is that Saren was lied to. His vision of the future was based on bad data, data given directly from Sovereign. This doesn't necessarily make all visions of Synthesis wrong, and I'm fairly sure Saren's version of it was different from the Catalyst's anyway.
The thing about Synthesis is that it's the most thorough repudiation of the Reapers' ideals as we know them: from the beginning, we've seen that the Reapers have a gigantic superiority complex, seeing themselves as far beyond anything the rest of the galaxy has to offer, and their harvests seem to be a means of keeping themselves that way, of ensuring that no one reaches the Reapers' level without becoming a Reaper themselves. In Synthesis, everyone reaches the Reapers' level without being bound to them.

I am relaxed. That has always been my opinion. This should not be a "there's no wrong answer" choice. This should be a "you decided to play hide the omnitool with Morinth" choice. I tire of the hand holding they give us where no choice is wrong. Resisting indoctrination should be hard. And the price for failure should be the supreme one. Even if It proves to be true and they release post-IT content, even if it's all great, I'll still be very off put if they go the "no one's ever wrong and you're all special and you can be whatever you want" route and make it so synthesis and control Shepards get anything more than a cutscene like you get if you run out of time on Arrival.

There is a "wrong choice" in my theory. It's Refusal.

On an unrelated note, the analysis for the breath scene always puts it
at either London or the Citadel. Has any effort been made to see if
anywhere else fits?

The Citadel. Reality may be wavering until then, but I don't think anything is a complete hallucination, even the Catalyst's presentation; it's just speaking in less-than-literally-true tones, to better get to Shepard through said indoctrination.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 02 octobre 2012 - 02:36 .

[ElSuperGecko]

Rifneno wrote...
This should not be a "there's no wrong answer" choice.  This should be a "you decided to play hide the omnitool with Morinth" choice.  I tire of the hand holding they give us where no choice is wrong.  Resisting indoctrination should be hard.  And the price for failure should be the supreme one.  Even if It proves to be true and they release post-IT content, even if it's all great, I'll still be very off put if they go the "no one's ever wrong and you're all special and you can be whatever you want" route and make it so synthesis and control Shepards get anything more than a cutscene like you get if you run out of time on Arrival.

Of course, if they made it that obvious that some of the ending choices were a mistake and lead to Shepard becoming indoctrinated and the Reapers winning - be that with Harbinger laughing and/or a Critical Mission Failure screen or whatever, who would ever choose those options again?

By refusing to comment, confirm either way, Bioware leaves it open... the player has to make their decision, and take their chances... and people don't know for sure whether they've made the right decision or not.  There's always room for doubt.

I still wonder if Bioware is tracking how many players chose which ending on their first playthrough.  And whether we'll ever eventually see them release the results...

Bioware:  "5 million players completed Mass Effect 3!  And of those 5 million... guess how many fell at the final hurdle?"

[Eryri]

NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...

Don't forget how Shep's body changes in control and synthesis honey badger. I'm surprised more people weren't... shocked by seeing that

Yeah, synthesisers and controllers always handwave that away with "Oh that doesn't mean he's indoctrinated, that's just due to contact with Reaper tech".

The fact that contact with said tech has always invariably been a bad thing in the past is neither here nor there apparently - this time it's different.

Modifié par Eryri, 02 octobre 2012 - 02:36 .

[Xilizhra]

Eryri wrote...

NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...

Don't forget how Shep's body changes in control and synthesis honey badger. I'm surprised more people weren't... shocked by seeing that

Yeah, synthesiser and controllers always handwave that away with "Oh that doesn't mean he's indoctrinated, that's just due to contact with Reaper tech".

The fact that contact with said tech has always invariably been a bad thing in the past is neither here nor there apparently - this time it's different.

EDI would never be EDI without Reaper tech, ships would never have been able to do so well against the Reapers without Thanix cannons, the human-Reaper's shell proves a valuable control device/power source...

[Davik Kang]

Rifneno wrote...
I am relaxed.  That has always been my opinion.  This should not be a "there's no wrong answer" choice.  This should be a "you decided to play hide the omnitool with Morinth" choice.  I tire of the hand holding they give us where no choice is wrong.  Resisting indoctrination should be hard.  And the price for failure should be the supreme one.  Even if It proves to be true and they release post-IT content, even if it's all great, I'll still be very off put if they go the "no one's ever wrong and you're all special and you can be whatever you want" route and make it so synthesis and control Shepards get anything more than a cutscene like you get if you run out of time on Arrival.

Yeah but I'm not saying there's no wrong answer.  I firmly believe Destroy was the right answer.  It is central to the whole interpretation I have of the ending and ME as a whole.
But you're not making any points about the prior opinion and how it fits into IT.  You just flamed with

-Synthesis is genetic rape on a galactic scale, nothing more, nothing less.
-Control is levels of gullibility that I lack the words to describe.
-Anyone picking either of these should be treated to a short cutscene of their husk Shepard killing their crew and/or LI followed by the Reapers destroying all life in the galaxy.  Maybe a short "you fool lol" speech from Harbinger for good measure
-I stopped reading at "Catalyst is genuine and trying to help Shepard".

When people read stuff like this they just see "these IT guys just don't care what anyone else thinks".  If you want this thread to just be IT guys all agreeing with another and not challenging anything, then ok, I'll get out of here too.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 02 octobre 2012 - 02:41 .

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Xilizhra wrote...

Eryri wrote...

NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...

Don't forget how Shep's body changes in control and synthesis honey badger. I'm surprised more people weren't... shocked by seeing that

Yeah, synthesiser and controllers always handwave that away with "Oh that doesn't mean he's indoctrinated, that's just due to contact with Reaper tech".

The fact that contact with said tech has always invariably been a bad thing in the past is neither here nor there apparently - this time it's different.

EDI would never be EDI without Reaper tech, ships would never have been able to do so well against the Reapers without Thanix cannons, the human-Reaper's shell proves a valuable control device/power source...

Reverse-engineered Reaper tech.

EDI herself has quite a number of lines about how repulsive the Reapers are, but she's Reaper tech to the core??

The thanix cannon is just the liquid magnetic core of the spinal mounted Reaper weapons. Which I doubt wants anything other then shooting and explosions.

The human-Reaper remains (core or head) is a disgusting abomination no matter what your Shepard says. The fact its at Cronos Station proves this. Why the Alliance salvages it instead of blowing it up with the station I do not know. Even dead reapers can indoctrinate. 

[Eryri]

Xilizhra wrote...

EDI would never be EDI without Reaper tech, 

True. Can't argue with that. EDIT - although she was becoming self aware on Luna without Reaper tech - maybe it just accelerated the process?

 ships would never have been able to do so well against the Reapers without Thanix cannons, 

Debateable - I think the Thanix cannons are more based on the physical principle of the cannons rather than using actual reaper manufactured components.

 the human-Reaper's shell proves a valuable control device/power source...

Only provided that the Crucible is not a trap.

Modifié par Eryri, 02 octobre 2012 - 02:47 .

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Xilizhra wrote...

Eryri wrote...

NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...

Don't forget how Shep's body changes in control and synthesis honey badger. I'm surprised more people weren't... shocked by seeing that

Yeah, synthesiser and controllers always handwave that away with "Oh that doesn't mean he's indoctrinated, that's just due to contact with Reaper tech".

The fact that contact with said tech has always invariably been a bad thing in the past is neither here nor there apparently - this time it's different.

EDI would never be EDI without Reaper tech, ships would never have been able to do so well against the Reapers without Thanix cannons, the human-Reaper's shell proves a valuable control device/power source...

Also EDI was EDI before the Reaper black box. The RBB  just super enhances her combat effectiveness. As a consciousness EDI was "alive" as part of the Hannibal system on Luna. TIM salvaged that to build EDI.
 

[Xilizhra]

EDI herself has quite a number of lines about how repulsive the Reapers are, but she's Reaper tech to the core??

The Reapers are repulsive because of their actions, not their physical makeup. Tech alone has no moral qualities.

The human-Reaper remains (core or head) is a disgusting abomination no matter what your Shepard says. The fact its at Cronos Station proves this. Why the Alliance salvages it instead of blowing it up with the station I do not know. Even dead reapers can indoctrinate.

Call it a disgusting abomination however much you like, the point is that it's quite a helpful war asset. And I don't think the human-Reaper had indoctrination built into it yet; it was at a very early stage of development.

Also EDI was EDI before the Reaper
black box. The RBB  just super enhances her combat effectiveness. As a
consciousness EDI was "alive" as part of the Hannibal system on Luna.
TIM salvaged that to build EDI.

And that enhanced effectiveness has been absolutely vital to Shepard's survival many times.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 02 octobre 2012 - 02:48 .

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Xilizhra wrote...

EDI herself has quite a number of lines about how repulsive the Reapers are, but she's Reaper tech to the core??

The Reapers are repulsive because of their actions, not their physical makeup. Tech alone has no moral qualities.

The human-Reaper remains (core or head) is a disgusting abomination no matter what your Shepard says. The fact its at Cronos Station proves this. Why the Alliance salvages it instead of blowing it up with the station I do not know. Even dead reapers can indoctrinate.

Call it a disgusting abomination however much you like, the point is that it's quite a helpful war asset. And I don't think the human-Reaper had indoctrination built into it yet; it was at a very early stage of development.

EDI's only Reaper parts are the Black Box and the IFF. Do you know what a black box is? It essentialy formulates EDI's mind. As an A.I. EDI is able to override, rewrite, alter her black box "thought patterns" thus the EDI we have today. She buiilt on her interactions with the Normandy crew and Cerberus A.I. team. But Reapers cannot change their core programming. They are obsessively intent on their goal. And thus so is EDI, compulsed to destroy the Reapers. She take sover a combat efficient robot. She devotes her full focus on the war and the Reapers.

I don't know where I'm going with this anymore but see if you can make heads or tails of it 

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

The point is that Saren was lied to. His vision of the future was based on bad data, data given directly from Sovereign. This doesn't necessarily make all visions of Synthesis wrong, and I'm fairly sure Saren's version of it was different from the Catalyst's anyway.
The thing about Synthesis is that it's the most thorough repudiation of the Reapers' ideals as we know them: from the beginning, we've seen that the Reapers have a gigantic superiority complex, seeing themselves as far beyond anything the rest of the galaxy has to offer, and their harvests seem to be a means of keeping themselves that way, of ensuring that no one reaches the Reapers' level without becoming a Reaper themselves. In Synthesis, everyone reaches the Reapers' level without being bound to them.

Every version of synthesis where it's forced on others without their consent is wrong. And I have no idea where you get the idea that the Reapers will see a pyjak as their equal because it has circuits on its teeth.

ElSuperGecko wrote...

Of course, if they made it that obvious that some of the ending choices were a mistake and lead to Shepard becoming indoctrinated and the Reapers winning - be that with Harbinger laughing and/or a Critical Mission Failure screen or whatever, who would ever choose those options again?

By refusing to comment, confirm either way, Bioware leaves it open... the player has to make their decision, and take their chances... and people don't know for sure whether they've made the right decision or not. There's always room for doubt.

Of course. I don't mean they should make it obvious now (moreso than it is anyway), I mean if/when we get post-breath scene content.

Davik Kang wrote...

But you're not making any points about the prior opinion and how it fits into IT. You just flamed with

-Synthesis is genetic rape on a galactic scale, nothing more, nothing less.
-Control is levels of gullibility that I lack the words to describe.
-Anyone picking either of these should be treated to a short cutscene of their husk Shepard killing their crew and/or LI followed by the Reapers destroying all life in the galaxy. Maybe a short "you fool lol" speech from Harbinger for good measure
-I stopped reading at "Catalyst is genuine and trying to help Shepard".

When people read stuff like this they just see "these IT guys just don't care what anyone else thinks". If you want this thread to just be IT guys all agreeing with another and not challenging anything, then ok, I'll get out of here too.

If you do, I suggest spending some time researching what "flaming" is. Because you obviously don't know.

[Xilizhra]

Every version of synthesis where it's forced on others without their consent is wrong. And I have no idea where you get the idea that the Reapers will see a pyjak as their equal because it has circuits on its teeth.

Since you don't believe any of the endings are literal anyway, the point is moot. It's the symbolism that matters, and Shepard finding a way out that doesn't involve the calcification of her own ideals into immobility, like what happened to Saren and TIM.

Whether it's "wrong" or not is also irrelevant. Again, Javik's line: "You hope this war will end with your honor intact."

Modifié par Xilizhra, 02 octobre 2012 - 02:57 .

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Xilizhra wrote...

The human-Reaper remains (core or head) is a disgusting abomination no matter what your Shepard says. The fact its at Cronos Station proves this. Why the Alliance salvages it instead of blowing it up with the station I do not know. Even dead reapers can indoctrinate.

Call it a disgusting abomination however much you like, the point is that it's quite a helpful war asset. And I don't think the human-Reaper had indoctrination built into it yet; it was at a very early stage of development.

Also EDI was EDI before the Reaper
black box. The RBB  just super enhances her combat effectiveness. As a
consciousness EDI was "alive" as part of the Hannibal system on Luna.
TIM salvaged that to build EDI.

And that enhanced effectiveness has been absolutely vital to Shepard's survival many times.

You don't think it has indoctrination built in (Even though it IS a Reaper) and it has a large number by its name in that little menu
Do I have to even argue this point??

And Shepard has proved quite effective in combatting the Reapers, so you think he is immune to indoctrination?

[Xilizhra]

You don't think it has indoctrination built in (Even though it IS a Reaper) and it has a large number by its name in that little menu
Do I have to even argue this point??

And Shepard has proved quite effective in combatting the Reapers, so you think he is immune to indoctrination?

Are you indoctrinated? You seem to be losing coherency.

[Eryri]

Xilizhra wrote...

The human-Reaper remains (core or head) is a disgusting abomination no matter what your Shepard says. The fact its at Cronos Station proves this. Why the Alliance salvages it instead of blowing it up with the station I do not know. Even dead reapers can indoctrinate.

Call it a disgusting abomination however much you like, the point is that it's quite a helpful war asset. And I don't think the human-Reaper had indoctrination built into it yet; it was at a very early stage of development.

Why would you assume that the larval reaper is unable to indoctrinate? We have no in game evidence for when Reapers gain this ability.

Modifié par Eryri, 02 octobre 2012 - 03:02 .