80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Since you don't believe any of the endings are literal anyway, the point is moot. It's the symbolism that matters, and Shepard finding a way out that doesn't involve the calcification of her own ideals into immobility, like what happened to Saren and TIM.

Whether it's "wrong" or not is also irrelevant. Again, Javik's line: "You hope this war will end with your honor intact."

So the symbolism matters, and falling for the same crap Saren and TIM did is a way out? Riiiight.

Are you indoctrinated? You seem to be losing coherency.

Pot. Kettle. Black.

[Rifneno]

Eryri wrote...

Why would you assume that the larval reaper is unable to indoctrinate? We have no in game evidence for when Reapers gain this ability.

There's evidence for the opposite since several crew members remark about feeling like it's watching them.

[Xilizhra]

Why would you assume that the larval reaper is unable to indoctrinate? We have no in game evidence for when Reapers gain this ability.

Because it never seems to actually do so, or have any effect. When indoctrinated rachni get aboard the Crucible project, they wreak havoc, but it doesn't happen with this thing.

So the symbolism matters, and falling for the same crap Saren and TIM did is a way out? Riiiight.

Refusal is falling to the same crap that Saren and TIM did. Saren's goal wasn't Synthesis, it was submission to the Reapers, where Synthesis equalizes everything, including the Reapers. As for TIM, he wasn't technically wrong, he just used the wrong means (and was subtly indoctrinated from the beginning, even before Cerberus, so he probably never had a chance).

There's evidence for the opposite since several crew members remark about feeling like it's watching them.

Ah, yes, because a creepy skull-headed colossus could never achieve such a psychological effect without space magic.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 02 octobre 2012 - 03:12 .

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Xilizhra wrote...

You don't think it has indoctrination built in (Even though it IS a Reaper) and it has a large number by its name in that little menu
Do I have to even argue this point??

And Shepard has proved quite effective in combatting the Reapers, so you think he is immune to indoctrination?

Are you indoctrinated? You seem to be losing coherency.

Good comeback. OK. Let me see if I can make it clearer.

You, Xilizhra, have stated that:

The Human-Reaper in the Collector Base most likely did not have Indoctrination built in yet.

I argue:

Supposition. The Reaper's greatest weapon is turning their enemies into their own troops. Why they would not include this feature early into the building of another Reaper, I do not know. In fact, I believe they did install the Indoctrination module early on. Seeing as how there are numerous other artifacts in the galaxy that cause indoctrination, installing that on to a full fledged Reaper should be pretty simple. 
Also, the fact that it can be used as an effective control device/power source (your words) should be even more alarming. Utilizing the Reaper remains like that is irresponsible. What was the downfall of Saren and TIM? They accepted and used Reaper- tech.


Now, you say:
that EDI's enhanced combat software from the Reaper black box has been very succesfull in helping keep Shepard alive in combat scenarios.

I argue:

And Shepard (as analagous to EDI) has been very effective against combating Reaper forces. But that does not mean he is immune to indoctrination, such as the attempt at the end of the game.
I believe you are trying to say that Reaper tech is good but what I don't think you understand is the full extent of what Reaper tech is. Cerberus (the indoctrinated guys) installed a Reaper black box on a powerful A.I, that was installed on the galaxy's most advanced war ship (sound like a good idea?), coincidentally, that war ship was upgraded with more reverse-engineered reaper tech. Is the Normandy a conduit for indoctrination? I dunno, it is speculation.

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why would you assume that the larval reaper is unable to indoctrinate? We have no in game evidence for when Reapers gain this ability.

Because it never seems to actually do so, or have any effect. When indoctrinated rachni get aboard the Crucible project, they wreak havoc, but it doesn't happen with this thing.

You get the Reaper tech then your off to the endgame. It took the rachni time to turn on the Alliance, if you don't remember correctly

[Xilizhra]

Supposition. The Reaper's greatest weapon is turning their enemies into their own troops. Why they would not include this feature early into the building of another Reaper, I do not know. In fact, I believe they did install the Indoctrination module early on. Seeing as how there are numerous other artifacts in the galaxy that cause indoctrination, installing that on to a full fledged Reaper should be pretty simple.
Also, the fact that it can be used as an effective control device/power source (your words) should be even more alarming. Utilizing the Reaper remains like that is irresponsible. What was the downfall of Saren and TIM? They accepted and used Reaper- tech.

Actually, both of them accidentally stumbled onto Reaper tech in some manner. Saren ran into Sovereign and became indoctrinated rather fast, whereas TIM's process was slower but began when he got zapped by the thing that changed his eyes. Basically, their first exposures were uncontrolled and weakened them to become more easily indoctrinated. And I contend that the Reaper larva didn't have indoctrination capabilities because it never demonstrates them or causes any harm to the project.

I believe you are trying to say that Reaper tech is good but what I don't think you understand is the full extent of what Reaper tech is. Cerberus (the indoctrinated guys) installed a Reaper black box on a powerful A.I, that was installed on the galaxy's most advanced war ship (sound like a good idea?), coincidentally, that war ship was upgraded with more reverse-engineered reaper tech. Is the Normandy a conduit for indoctrination? I dunno, it is speculation.

Reaper tech alone isn't bad, it's the indoctrination that is. But that's not installed into every piece of Reaper tech. Hell, both the Citadel and the mass relays are Reaper tech, and look what they've done for galactic society as a whole, at least with the Conduit being able to nullify the use of both as traps.

You get the Reaper tech then your off to the endgame. It took the rachni
time to turn on the Alliance, if you don't remember correctly

Or, perhaps, they just shielded it well. Hell, there's a huge piece of Sovereign in Bryson's lab in Leviathan, and that never does anything because of the shielding.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 02 octobre 2012 - 03:19 .

[Eryri]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why would you assume that the larval reaper is unable to indoctrinate? We have no in game evidence for when Reapers gain this ability.

Because it never seems to actually do so, or have any effect. When indoctrinated rachni get aboard the Crucible project, they wreak havoc, but it doesn't happen with this thing.

But the reaper part is only installed right before the push for Earth. Who knows what it might do with a little more time? 

Besides I have my suspicions that the whole Crucible is a trap anyway. Charging into battle with this improbable jerry-rigged device seems like madness. Playing right into the Reapers hands tentacles.

[Xilizhra]

Eryri wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Why would you assume that the larval reaper is unable to indoctrinate? We have no in game evidence for when Reapers gain this ability.

Because it never seems to actually do so, or have any effect. When indoctrinated rachni get aboard the Crucible project, they wreak havoc, but it doesn't happen with this thing.

But the reaper part is only installed right before the push for Earth. Who knows what it might do with a little more time? 

Besides I have my suspicions that the whole Crucible is a trap anyway. Charging into battle with this improbable jerry-rigged device seems like madness. Playing right into the Reapers hands tentacles.

And I contend that refusing to accept the new paradigm and continuing onward with a course doomed to failure is itself another sign of indoctrination.

[plfranke]

It's not even worth it arguing with this person. They believe that synthesis is Shepard sticking to his guns to stop the Reapers. There's no arguing with that.Also, I hate when people say to calm down when we call out an idea. That is what synthesis is. There's no way around it, and it has no place in this game as a final decision portrayed positively. People no our stance on this thread and if they come in here and talk about how synthesis is right they should know what they're going to get in response.

To that end Rif, I have a lot of ideas about where else it could be that fits with the breath scene. However, finding a place that both fits the scenery and the story is difficult. For instance, it's hard to pinpoint a place before certain places because then those stories would have to be re told. My main idea had Shepard on Thessia, but that would require the entire conclusion of the Miranda storyline to be thrown out the window. There's also the Cerberus base but that would mean the Kai Leng storyline has to be redone etc. However, with the new evidence that Kai Leng is still alive that may be something of a possibility. I don't know, there are a lot of places environment wise that he could be, but the further back they go, the more upset fans are going to be who don't like IT.

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Xilizhra wrote...

Why would you assume that the larval reaper is unable to indoctrinate? We have no in game evidence for when Reapers gain this ability.

Because it never seems to actually do so, or have any effect. When indoctrinated rachni get aboard the Crucible project, they wreak havoc, but it doesn't happen with this thing.

So the symbolism matters, and falling for the same crap Saren and TIM did is a way out? Riiiight.

Refusal is falling to the same crap that Saren and TIM did. Saren's goal wasn't Synthesis, it was submission to the Reapers, where Synthesis equalizes everything, including the Reapers. As for TIM, he wasn't technically wrong, he just used the wrong means (and was subtly indoctrinated from the beginning, even before Cerberus, so he probably never had a chance).

There's evidence for the opposite since several crew members remark about feeling like it's watching them.

Ah, yes, because a creepy skull-headed colossus could never achieve such a psychological effect without space magic.

Refusal is not equating with TIM and Saren.
Saren advocates joining with the Reapers. A union of flesh and machines. 
Now look at "The Synthesis Compendium: A New Ascension or whatever that thread is called.

TIM (Jack Harper) was indoctrinated by the Arca Monolith on Palavan/Shanxi. Since that time he has fought the Reapers by trying to instill human dominance in the Galaxy, because through humanity he could strengthen our chances of defeating the Reapers. But as the end came nearer he decided to accept more and more Reaper tech, getting to the point where he surmised control was the optimal solution. He could use the Reapers to his own means (an idea planted by the Monolith or the after efffects of being indoctrinated by it).

Ya, that sounds a lot like refusal. Honestly if one was going to take the endings literally then they should have shown a vision for synthesis with Saren. 

And I cannot argue your last point (about the Reaper larva watching them) because you do not present a counter arguement to honey badger.

[Xilizhra]

Refusal is not equating with TIM and Saren.
Saren advocates joining with the Reapers. A union of flesh and machines.
Now look at "The Synthesis Compendium: A New Ascension or whatever that thread is called.

Refusal is doing the same thing they did: refusing to change course from a failure, until death. Also, I suspect you didn't read that thread, because the reason for the choice of name is explicitly explained. And Saren, again, is just taking another route to complete submission.

And I cannot argue your last point (about the Reaper larva watching them) because you do not present a counter arguement to honey badger.

Are you channeling DA2's Serendipity? And what I said is that it's easy for someone to feel like the human-Reaper is watching them without indoctrination.

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Yes, plfranke is right. This debate has pretty much devolved into you saying we are "blind to the obvious and good, wholesome endings of Synthesis and Control" -> "And I contend that refusing to accept the new paradigm and continuing onward with a course doomed to failure is itself another sign of indoctrination."

[Rifneno]

Xilizhra wrote...

Because it never seems to actually do so, or have any effect. When indoctrinated rachni get aboard the Crucible project, they wreak havoc, but it doesn't happen with this thing.

And when is it going to happen? When you get that blatant allegory, you're locked into heading straight to Earth immediately after.

Refusal is falling to the same crap that Saren and TIM did. Saren's goal wasn't Synthesis, it was submission to the Reapers, where Synthesis equalizes everything, including the Reapers. As for TIM, he wasn't technically wrong, he just used the wrong means (and was subtly indoctrinated from the beginning, even before Cerberus, so he probably never had a chance).

I can't even imagine how you arrived at the conclusion that refusal is TIM and Saren's route. Anything to protect sin-thesis I guess. Because trees having wires means everyone is equal because... whatever.

Ah, yes, because a creepy skull-headed colossus could never achieve such a psychological effect without space magic.

I realize you haven't been here for the last 5000 pages to learn all the angles we have, but you could at least read the damn indoctrination codex and see what known symptoms are.

Lulz at defending synthesis and then calling indoctrination space magic.

[Xilizhra]

And when is it going to happen? When you get that blatant allegory, you're locked into heading straight to Earth immediately after.

Who knows? But if the Crucible works, which it will if you don't Refuse, even if they were dumb enough to not shield it, the effects would likely be minor.

I can't even imagine how you arrived at the conclusion that refusal is TIM and Saren's route. Anything to protect sin-thesis I guess. Because trees having wires means everyone is equal because... whatever.

Again, their route is to refuse to change course in the face of all arguments to the contrary, due to indoctrination. Which Refusal also is, or perhaps could be.

Lulz at defending synthesis and then calling indoctrination space magic.

You're implying that I said it was a bad thing. Everything in this damned universe is space magic. Especially most major races being oxygen-breathing bipeds who smile to express happiness.

Yes, plfranke is right. This debate has pretty much devolved into you
saying we are "blind to the obvious and good, wholesome endings of
Synthesis and Control" -> "And I contend that refusing to accept the
new paradigm and continuing onward with a course doomed to failure is
itself another sign of indoctrination."

Well, given that you people all chose Destroy, you'll still be fine. I'm mostly here to defend my own thought processes.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 02 octobre 2012 - 03:30 .

[Restrider]

Okay, here is a short list of the endings and their respective advocats:

Control - This is easy, since we argued with TIM five minutes before we choose it what dangers Control inherits.
Synthesis - Saren and Kai Leng come into mind. Saren for his "a vision of the future" speech and Kai Leng for his "we either evolve or die, those are the options" speech on Thessia (?).
Refuse - Dr. Amanda Kenson had the stance that the reapers' arrival wouldn't be something bad for the organics and thus refused to take any action against this.
Destroy - Literally all of your squadmates and allies advocate this solution.

The fact that a remarkable amount of players change their goal by giving credit to a totally new character that even admits to be aligned to the evil nightmare machines we've been fighting throughout the whole trilogy is baffling.
I'll admit that at my first playthrough I (accidently) chose Refuse, because I did not trust any of the presented options.

Modifié par Restrider, 02 octobre 2012 - 03:39 .

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Xilizhra wrote...

Refusal is not equating with TIM and Saren.
Saren advocates joining with the Reapers. A union of flesh and machines.
Now look at "The Synthesis Compendium: A New Ascension or whatever that thread is called.

Refusal is doing the same thing they did: refusing to change course from a failure, until death. Also, I suspect you didn't read that thread, because the reason for the choice of name is explicitly explained. And Saren, again, is just taking another route to complete submission.

And I cannot argue your last point (about the Reaper larva watching them) because you do not present a counter arguement to honey badger.

Are you channeling DA2's Serendipity? And what I said is that it's easy for someone to feel like the human-Reaper is watching them without indoctrination.

BOTH SAREN AND TIM WERE CONVINCED OTHERWISE AT THE END OF THE GAME. BREAKING THROUGH THEIR INDOCTTRINATION BECAUSE OF SHEPARD

Whoo, sorry 'bout that. Lost my cool for a minute there.

And about the synthesis thread, your right. I only skimmed through it at best. I am perfectly fine with people believing whatever they want to bleive, as long as they respect me just the same. But I also love healthy debate between those beliefs, thus why I jumped in when you posted.

I have never play DA2 so you lost me on that one. The point about the Reaper watching them is'nt about indoctrination, it is about how malovolent of a machine it is!

That is all from me though, have a good day sir or madam.

[Davik Kang]

Rifneno wrote...
If you do, I suggest spending some time researching what "flaming" is. Because you obviously don't know.

Oh come on dude, is that really what this thread is coming to?  Your points weren't good points, they were aggressive, one-sided attacks.  You could have made the same staements without resorting to that.  This thread is one of the best on the forum because a lot of the IT supporters here are open to suggestions and take the time to explain their side.  Posts like your ones I quoted just mirror a whole bunch of posts on the rest of the site which amount to "you're wrong, ******, get over it'

Modifié par Davik Kang, 02 octobre 2012 - 03:34 .

[plfranke]

But your thought processes do not fit with what we've learned. That's why it's not a good way to spend our time to argue with you.

[Restrider]

And just for the lolz:
I think Synthesis (and to some extend Control) is like this.

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Restrider wrote...

Okay, here is a short list of the endings and their respective advocates:

Control - This is easy, since we argued with TIM five minutes before we choose it what dangers Control inherits.
Synthesis - Saren and Kai Leng come into mind. Saren for his "a vision of the future" speech and Kai Leng for his "we either evolve or die, those are the options" speech on Thessia (?).
Refuse - Dr. Amanda Kenson had the stance that the reaper's arrival wouldn't be something bad for the organics and thus refused to take any action against this.
Destroy - Literally all of your squadmates and allies advocates this solution.

The fact that a remarkable amount of players change their goal by giving credit to a totally new character that even admits to be aligned to the evil nightmare machines we've been fighting throughout the whole trilogy is baffling.
I'll admit that at my first playthrough I (accidently) chose Refuse, because I did not trust any of the presented options.

Don't forgot Gavin Archer (yes still Cerberus but whatever) for control, Overlord and what not. Or maybe that is Synthesis? Its got a strong pull for both.

And haha I blended my DNA on my first playthrough 
EDIT: Pre- EC of course, haha I didnt have the luxury of refuse 

Modifié par NebuchadnezzaRT, 02 octobre 2012 - 03:40 .

[Xilizhra]

The fact that a remarkable amount of players change their goal by giving credit to a totally new character that even admits to be aligned to the evil nightmare machines we've been fighting throughout the whole trilogy is baffling.
I'll admit that at my first playthrough I (accidently) chose Refuse, because I did not trust any of the presented options.

It's only a change because we didn't think the Crucible could do anything else, and none of the squadmates are around to give their opinions. Since the Catalyst's solutions are never presented until the very end, you can't use other peoples' opinions about them because none exist.

BOTH SAREN AND TIM WERE CONVINCED OTHERWISE AT THE END OF THE GAME. BREAKING THROUGH THEIR INDOCTTRINATION BECAUSE OF SHEPARD

Yes, and in my vision, that's the exact role the Catalyst is playing for Shepard.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 02 octobre 2012 - 03:39 .

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Davik Kang wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
If you do, I suggest spending some time researching what "flaming" is. Because you obviously don't know.

Oh come on dude, is that really what this thread is coming to?  Your points weren't good points, they were aggressive, one-sided attacks.  You could have made the same staements without resorting to that.  This thread is one of the best on the forum because a lot of the IT supporters here are open to suggestions and take the time to explain their side.  Posts like your ones I quoted just mirror a whole bunch of posts on the rest of the site which amount to "you're wrong, ******, get over it'

You for one are twisting his words. And the person he is arguing wiht is not presenting new ideas. Barely even challenging facts we alrteady know!

Davik your defending a person who believes that there was a reaper in the galaxy that couldnt indoctrinate. 

[Xilizhra]

Davik your defending a person who believes that there was a reaper in the galaxy that couldnt indoctrinate.

That didn't indoctrinate, for whatever reason. Either it couldn't or it was shielded.

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Xilizhra wrote...

The fact that a remarkable amount of players change their goal by giving credit to a totally new character that even admits to be aligned to the evil nightmare machines we've been fighting throughout the whole trilogy is baffling.
I'll admit that at my first playthrough I (accidently) chose Refuse, because I did not trust any of the presented options.

It's only a change because we didn't think the Crucible could do anything else, and none of the squadmates are around to give their opinions. Since the Catalyst's solutions are never presented until the very end, you can't use other peoples' opinions about them because none exist.

BOTH SAREN AND TIM WERE CONVINCED OTHERWISE AT THE END OF THE GAME. BREAKING THROUGH THEIR INDOCTTRINATION BECAUSE OF SHEPARD

Yes, and in my vision, that's the exact role the Catalyst is playing for Shepard.

OK, I see what you believe. I respect it. I think it is wrong but I respect it.

But can I ask you this:
You say our perspectives change because we only thought the Crucible would destroy and that we do not have any squaddies with us at the end. Yet, you accept the "Catalyst" as being your friend and only wanting to help you, even though it, in reality, is what you have been fighting this whole time?

[Rifneno]

plfranke wrote...

To that end Rif, I have a lot of ideas about where else it could be that fits with the breath scene. However, finding a place that both fits the scenery and the story is difficult. For instance, it's hard to pinpoint a place before certain places because then those stories would have to be re told. My main idea had Shepard on Thessia, but that would require the entire conclusion of the Miranda storyline to be thrown out the window. There's also the Cerberus base but that would mean the Kai Leng storyline has to be redone etc. However, with the new evidence that Kai Leng is still alive that may be something of a possibility. I don't know, there are a lot of places environment wise that he could be, but the further back they go, the more upset fans are going to be who don't like IT.

I've always hoped Kai Leng survived because Aria really deserves to be the one to kill him. The bastard murdered her daughter while she was unconscious and helpless.

Xilizhra wrote...

Who knows? But if the Crucible works, which it will if you don't Refuse, even if they were dumb enough to not shield it, the effects would likely be minor.

Now the shielding thing for Leviathan artifacts works on Reaper indoctrination? That's it. I'm done.

Davik Kang wrote...

Oh come on dude, is that really what this thread is coming to? Your points weren't good points, they were aggressive, one-sided attacks. You could have made the same staements without resorting to that. This thread is one of the best on the forum because a lot of the IT supporters here are open to suggestions and take the time to explain their side. Posts like your ones I quoted just mirror a whole bunch of posts on the rest of the site which amount to "you're wrong, ******, get over it'

Everything I've said, I've seen said dozens of times by others. You're the first person to throw a tantrum over it. Get over it. I don't care.