80611 réponses à ce sujet

[BatmanTurian]

Xilizhra wrote...

Everything in this damned universe is space magic. Especially most major races being oxygen-breathing bipeds who smile to express happiness.

First of all, the Mass Effect is based on real Relativity math if a new element were discovered that allows the user to affect mass, thus space/time and gravity, by conducting electricity through it. It's magic to us because that exotic element doesn't exist (as far as we know).

Secondly, the game is for a human audience, so oxygen-breathing bipeds who smile are there for us to sympathize with. No matter what you write, you're writing for humans so the audience has to be able to see human traits in the other aliens or else there is a disconnect. Plus, part of the story is to throw the old trope out the window that all members of one alien species are the same as all the others. In Mass Effect, individuals from different species are wildly different from each other in personality and quirks, some even to the point of totally breaking species stereoypes (like the polite krogan and the poem-reading krogan). So your argument that this is " space magic" is absurd because it's actually a necessary story-telling technique.

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Xilizhra wrote...

Davik your defending a person who believes that there was a reaper in the galaxy that couldnt indoctrinate.

That didn't indoctrinate, for whatever reason. Either it couldn't or it was shielded.

Shielded to protect Collectors or the tourists from Omega?
Also note that there are no shielding mechanisms on Cronos Station.
So, ignoring previous facts that Reapers, every single one, indoctrinate just by being there you say that the one Reaper we actually fight nearly hand-to-tentacle (tail-spine?) with is incapable of doing what every other one can do?

[Restrider]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's only a change because we didn't think the Crucible could do anything else, and none of the squadmates are around to give their opinions. Since the Catalyst's solutions are never presented until the very end, you can't use other peoples' opinions about them because none exist.

Wowowowow...!
That is wrong!
We knew since Mars that TIM had the plan to control the reapers. It was foreshadowed the whole game that this could be a possibility. And you even discuss that with Hackett, where he states that by controlling the reapers you do not beat them! In fact the whole Cerberus vs. Alliance/Council Races conflict was a conflict along the lines Control vs. Destroy.
Synthesis on the other hand was not really foreshadowed in ME3, but in ME2 (when we find out what reapers really are = pinnacle of organic evolution, implied by Legion) and in ME1 with Saren. Furthermore the reapers always said they were going to ascend organics and that it would be inevitable. Sounds familiar?

[Xilizhra]

But can I ask you this:
You say our perspectives change because we only thought the Crucible would destroy and that we do not have any squaddies with us at the end. Yet, you accept the "Catalyst" as being your friend and only wanting to help you, even though it, in reality, is what you have been fighting this whole time?

The Catalyst saved my life. It could have just let me bleed out there without activating the elevator or waking me up. It wants me alive for something that doesn't involve the Reapers just stomping everyone.

Now the shielding thing for Leviathan artifacts works on Reaper indoctrination? That's it. I'm done.

Certainly it worked on the huge chunk of Sovereign in Bryson's office. Did you not see that?

Secondly, the game is for a human audience, so oxygen-breathing bipeds who smile are there for us to sympathize with. No matter what you write, you're writing for humans so the audience has to be able to see human traits in the other aliens or else there is a disconnect. Plus, part of the story is to throw the old trope out the window that all members of one alien species are the same as all the others. In Mass Effect, individuals from different species are wildly different from each other in personality and quirks, some even to the point of totally breaking species stereoypes (like the polite krogan and the poem-reading krogan). So your argument that this is " space magic" is absurd because it's actually a necessary story-telling technique.

Again, I never said that space magic was a bad thing. I acknowledge that it's a necessary storytelling technique. It's just... also space magic.

Shielded to protect Collectors or the tourists from Omega?
Also note that there are no shielding mechanisms on Cronos Station.
So, ignoring previous facts that Reapers, every single one, indoctrinate just by being there you say that the one Reaper we actually fight nearly hand-to-tentacle (tail-spine?) with is incapable of doing what every other one can do?

Shielded when it was installed on the Crucible. Cerberus was already indoctrinated, so it didn't matter that much then.

We knew since Mars that TIM had the plan to control the reapers. It was foreshadowed the whole game that this could be a possibility. And you even discuss that with Hackett, where he states that by controlling the reapers you do not beat them! In fact the whole Cerberus vs. Alliance/Council Races conflict was a conflict along the lines Control vs. Destroy.
Synthesis on the other hand was not really foreshadowed in ME3, but in ME2 (when we find out what reapers really are = pinnacle of organic evolution, implied by Legion) and in ME1 with Saren. Furthermore the reapers always said they were going to ascend organics and that it would be inevitable. Sounds familiar?

Hackett's a good man, but he's not omniscient, and I'd happily control the Reapers if it was possible. The problem is that TIM is indoctrinated, and this is obvious from his actions: attacking the rest of the galaxy and damaging its ability to fight the Reapers. His philosophy of controlling them has relatively little to do with it.
As for Synthesis, the Reapers demanded that it be done on their terms, but the Catalyst's vision of Synthesis is not. People don't become Reapers, but something entirely new.

[BatmanTurian]

Really, arguing with this person is pointless. They're bringing up things we have already answered. Their point-of-view isn't even logical to begin with so they're not going to argue from a logical stand-point. They have no intention of changing their mind or being open to the possibility of other realities.

We've looked at the other realities and followed their logical conclusion. Logic and the story themes are on our side.

[Davik Kang]

plfranke wrote...
But your thought processes do not fit with what we've learned. That's why it's not a good way to spend our time to argue with you.

I don't understand what you mean.  Was this repsonding to me or Xilizhra?

NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...
You for one are twisting his words. And the person he is arguing wiht is not presenting new ideas. Barely even challenging facts we alrteady know!

Davik your defending a person who believes that there was a reaper in the galaxy that couldnt indoctrinate. 

I'm not defending Xilizhra though.  I agree with you and DD and Riferno about almost all of the points you're discussing.  But while you and some others are making a concise effort to explain your POV and refute Xilizhra's claims, Riferno is saying things like "people who believe stuff like this should be made to watch..." blah blah blah.

Also what Xilizhra is challenging are not facts.  I 100% agree that the StarKid was trying to indoctrinate Shepard to help the Reapers, but this isn't a fact.  It's an interpretation.

[BatmanTurian]

Xilizhra wrote...

Again, I never said that space magic was a bad thing. I acknowledge that it's a necessary storytelling technique. It's just... also space magic.
.

It's not space magic. It has nothing to do with the universe it exists in. It exists to tell the story. Otherwise the story could not make sense internally because every race would misunderstand each other's facial expressions. Seriously, that is just a stupid thing to argue.

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

So guys how is it going? Any new ideas cropping up?

[BatmanTurian]

Davik Kang wrote...

plfranke wrote...
But your thought processes do not fit with what we've learned. That's why it's not a good way to spend our time to argue with you.

I don't understand what you mean.  Was this repsonding to me or Xilizhra?

pretty sure he meant Xilizhra

[BatmanTurian]

NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...

So guys how is it going? Any new ideas cropping up?

just BS arguing at the moment.

I haven't read through the pages I missed so I'd like to know this as well.

[Discouraged_one]

Moral of the story is...

Bioware should go with Indoctrination Theory?

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Davik Kang wrote...

plfranke wrote...
But your thought processes do not fit with what we've learned. That's why it's not a good way to spend our time to argue with you.

I don't understand what you mean.  Was this repsonding to me or Xilizhra?

NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...
You for one are twisting his words. And the person he is arguing wiht is not presenting new ideas. Barely even challenging facts we alrteady know!

Davik your defending a person who believes that there was a reaper in the galaxy that couldnt indoctrinate. 

I'm not defending Xilizhra though.  I agree with you and DD and Riferno about almost all of the points you're discussing.  But while you and some others are making a concise effort to explain your POV and refute Xilizhra's claims, Riferno is saying things like "people who believe stuff like this should be made to watch..." blah blah blah.

Also what Xilizhra is challenging are not facts.  I 100% agree that the StarKid was trying to indoctrinate Shepard to help the Reapers, but this isn't a fact.  It's an interpretation.

Riferno is debating in his or her own way. No one else in this thread has had a problem with it and I know (or atleast I think I know) that you are relatively new here, right? His style of responding is mirrored by several other individuals in this thread that either are not on or chose not to respond. What you need to understand is that there is nothing wrong with what he is saying, he is expressing his point of view, which is either completely ignored or rebuffed by Xilizhra, never rebuked. 

[BatmanTurian]

Discouraged_one wrote...

Moral of the story is...

Bioware should go with Indoctrination Theory?

even some of the hard-core anti-ending people are going with this idea, but not everybody would like it because they would shrug it off as " Just A Dream " when it's obviously more complicated than that.

[RavenEyry]

I think a point that is confusing some is when we say 'reaper tech' we really mean 'reaper artefacts' (so we should probably use that phrase instead) and not anything that was first invented by the reapers.

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

BatmanTurian wrote...

NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...

So guys how is it going? Any new ideas cropping up?

just BS arguing at the moment.

I haven't read through the pages I missed so I'd like to know this as well.

Haha you don't want to it really amounted to nothing, I was hoping for a new perspective, instead we got a new Starchild is my friend believer.

[Restrider]

Xilizhra wrote...
Hackett's a good man, but he's not omniscient, and I'd happily control the Reapers if it was possible. The problem is that TIM is indoctrinated, and this is obvious from his actions: attacking the rest of the galaxy and damaging its ability to fight the Reapers. His philosophy of controlling them has relatively little to do with it.
As for Synthesis, the Reapers demanded that it be done on their terms, but the Catalyst's vision of Synthesis is not. People don't become Reapers, but something entirely new.

Catalyst = Reapers. There is no line in between. The Catalyst preserved/ascended organic life in Reaper form, thus melded it to become a Synthesis of synthetics and organics. And now he offers you the same concept and you do not even question it?

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

RavenEyry wrote...

I think a point that is confusing some is when we say 'reaper tech' we really mean 'reaper artefacts' (so we should probably use that phrase instead) and not anything that was first invented by the reapers.

Are you referring to when we were talking about thanix cannons and EDI and what not?
I see what you mean but the Citadel and the Mass Relays are technically "reaper artifacts"

[Xilizhra]

Restrider wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Hackett's a good man, but he's not omniscient, and I'd happily control the Reapers if it was possible. The problem is that TIM is indoctrinated, and this is obvious from his actions: attacking the rest of the galaxy and damaging its ability to fight the Reapers. His philosophy of controlling them has relatively little to do with it.
As for Synthesis, the Reapers demanded that it be done on their terms, but the Catalyst's vision of Synthesis is not. People don't become Reapers, but something entirely new.

Catalyst = Reapers. There is no line in between. The Catalyst preserved/ascended organic life in Reaper form, thus melded it to become a Synthesis of synthetics and organics. And now he offers you the same concept and you do not even question it?

I'm not an advocate for any one ending in particular, although I've come to greatly dislike Destroy. What I'm doing here is giving a way for those who chose any ending to find some means of enjoying it in a version of IT. I consider this more fair for everyone.

[Restrider]

Davik Kang wrote...


I'm not defending Xilizhra though.  I agree with you and DD and Riferno about almost all of the points you're discussing.  But while you and some others are making a concise effort to explain your POV and refute Xilizhra's claims, Riferno is saying things like "people who believe stuff like this should be made to watch..." blah blah blah.

Rifneno sometimes can be an @ss. You will not change his attitude. His avatar explains his stance perfectly. You will get used to his sometimes rough comments.

[paxxton]

NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...

So guys how is it going? Any new ideas cropping up?

The Reapers will harvest us all.

On a more serious note, the fact that the Catalyst saves Shepard from a certain death doesn't mean he's a friend. In fact by doing this the Catalyst's causing him to relax his vigilance and succumb to massive amounts of mind-twisting manipulative BS.

Modifié par paxxton, 02 octobre 2012 - 04:07 .

[RavenEyry]

NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

I think a point that is confusing some is when we say 'reaper tech' we really mean 'reaper artefacts' (so we should probably use that phrase instead) and not anything that was first invented by the reapers.

Are you referring to when we were talking about thanix cannons and EDI and what not?
I see what you mean but the Citadel and the Mass Relays are technically "reaper artifacts"

Yes I was. When we say things like 'reaper tech is dangerous' we don't mean engines and kinetic barriers and whatnot.
I don't know about relays but the citadel is a dangerous reaper artefact. It was used as a trap for many cycles and appears to have a calming affect on people. Also many people who spend a lot of time there stop viewing the reapers as threats.

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Xilizhra wrote...

Restrider wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Hackett's a good man, but he's not omniscient, and I'd happily control the Reapers if it was possible. The problem is that TIM is indoctrinated, and this is obvious from his actions: attacking the rest of the galaxy and damaging its ability to fight the Reapers. His philosophy of controlling them has relatively little to do with it.
As for Synthesis, the Reapers demanded that it be done on their terms, but the Catalyst's vision of Synthesis is not. People don't become Reapers, but something entirely new.

Catalyst = Reapers. There is no line in between. The Catalyst preserved/ascended organic life in Reaper form, thus melded it to become a Synthesis of synthetics and organics. And now he offers you the same concept and you do not even question it?

I'm not an advocate for any one ending in particular, although I've come to greatly dislike Destroy. What I'm doing here is giving a way for those who chose any ending to find some means of enjoying it in a version of IT. I consider this more fair for everyone.

About as fair as rewriting everyone's genetic code? About as fair as betraying you and all your allies? WTF man? How can you dislike destroy and say you want an all-encompassing version of IT???

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

RavenEyry wrote...

NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

I think a point that is confusing some is when we say 'reaper tech' we really mean 'reaper artefacts' (so we should probably use that phrase instead) and not anything that was first invented by the reapers.

Are you referring to when we were talking about thanix cannons and EDI and what not?
I see what you mean but the Citadel and the Mass Relays are technically "reaper artifacts"

Yes I was. When we say things like 'reaper tech is dangerous' we don't mean engines and kinetic barriers and whatnot.
I don't know about relays but the citadel is a dangerous reaper artefact. It was used as a trap for many cycles and appears to have a calming affect on people. Also many people who spend a lot of time there stop viewing the reapers as threats.

I hear ya, I said Reaper-tech extensively so I will try and start using artifacts instead, it does make more sense.

[Xilizhra]

NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Restrider wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Hackett's a good man, but he's not omniscient, and I'd happily control the Reapers if it was possible. The problem is that TIM is indoctrinated, and this is obvious from his actions: attacking the rest of the galaxy and damaging its ability to fight the Reapers. His philosophy of controlling them has relatively little to do with it.
As for Synthesis, the Reapers demanded that it be done on their terms, but the Catalyst's vision of Synthesis is not. People don't become Reapers, but something entirely new.

Catalyst = Reapers. There is no line in between. The Catalyst preserved/ascended organic life in Reaper form, thus melded it to become a Synthesis of synthetics and organics. And now he offers you the same concept and you do not even question it?

I'm not an advocate for any one ending in particular, although I've come to greatly dislike Destroy. What I'm doing here is giving a way for those who chose any ending to find some means of enjoying it in a version of IT. I consider this more fair for everyone.

About as fair as rewriting everyone's genetic code? About as fair as betraying you and all your allies? WTF man? How can you dislike destroy and say you want an all-encompassing version of IT???

Just because I dislike Destroy doesn't mean I'd want everyone who chooses it to wind up dooming the galaxy... unlike what you say about Control and Synthesis, which makes me sad.

[Restrider]

Xilizhra wrote...
I'm not an advocate for any one ending in particular, although I've come to greatly dislike Destroy. What I'm doing here is giving a way for those who chose any ending to find some means of enjoying it in a version of IT. I consider this more fair for everyone.

Well, I think ME has always been a game of choices and dealing with the consequences. There are multiple occasions with good/bad choices:
- ME2 suicide mission
- Morinth/Samara (especially with romance in mind)
- betraying friends (Mordin/Wrex; though I'd sabotage the cure if Wreav is chief, Eve is dead and it is not needed to kill Mordin)
- even minor choices (pick Vega for technical tasks)