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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!

Débuté par byne , juil. 30 2012 07:09

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#28501
BatmanTurian
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:22

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leonia42 wrote...

It could just be the smoke but there's a shape that resembles a face. But other times it is less clear. Probably a case of seeing things that aren't there. I am not at all convinced that the cityscape is London, it looks more like Vancouver than anything else and the conduit isn't too obvious (if it is the conduit at all just behind FemShep). The real take away from the image for me is the sun is out and the absense of Reapers. I'm not entirely sure it's a look of victory on Shepard's face, she almost looks ready to keep fighting but with a renewed sense of purpose.


It looks to me more like a " We did it" face rather than determined.

#28502
Xilizhra
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:22

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Confidence can be gained when facts and evidence are on your side.

Knowledge, if you will? I take it that you disagree with Darwin on this matter, then.

#28503
Rifneno
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:23

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Xilizhra wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

We're still arguing with Xil?

I am disappoint.


I'm ridiculing at this point.


Careful or Davik Kang will scold you if you do something as terrible as suggest a villain give a villain speech in a bad ending.

You know, your signature is making me think about just how very confident you always are.


It helps that I'm not focusing my points on things like an imaginary anti-lesbian prejudice on the writer's parts because a nameless asari and a nameless human woman broke up on the Citadel.

#28504
Xilizhra
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:24

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Skillz1986 wrote...

Hey, something just crossed my mind. I was talking to dr. Chakwas about my facial scars and she mentioned that n order to heal them, i (well, shep) need to be a little less "realistic" and a bit mor optimistic.
This doesn't seem like much and maybe it isn't, bu it may shed some light as to why the end choices are coloured like renegade or paragon options. According to chakwas, being renegade means being a realist.
Now me3 often showed that "good intentions" are not always goimg to cut it. Most of the times it does so with ems for example, letting private talavi transfer to a reaper zone istead of fighting cerberus (because she doesn't want to fight her brother..whom you might already gave killed in the first n7mission) is clearly a paragon choice..but it is the wrong choice concerning ems. There are a lot more of such examples but this post is already too long. Point is..destroy is the realistic option while control seems to be optimistic but deemed to fail.

The vast majority of EMS-boosting actions are Paragon ones.

It helps that I'm not focusing my points on things like an imaginary
anti-lesbian prejudice on the writer's parts because a nameless asari
and a nameless human woman broke up on the Citadel.

There's insufficient proof to deem that a breakup, I've decided.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 02 octobre 2012 - 05:24 .

#28505
BatmanTurian
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:24

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Skillz1986 wrote...

Hey, something just crossed my mind. I was talking to dr. Chakwas about my facial scars and she mentioned that n order to heal them, i (well, shep) need to be a little less "realistic" and a bit mor optimistic.
This doesn't seem like much and maybe it isn't, bu it may shed some light as to why the end choices are coloured like renegade or paragon options. According to chakwas, being renegade means being a realist.
Now me3 often showed that "good intentions" are not always goimg to cut it. Most of the times it does so with ems for example, letting private talavi transfer to a reaper zone istead of fighting cerberus (because she doesn't want to fight her brother..whom you might already gave killed in the first n7mission) is clearly a paragon choice..but it is the wrong choice concerning ems. There are a lot more of such examples but this post is already too long. Point is..destroy is the realistic option while control seems to be optimistic but deemed to fail.


WOW. nice catch. What DR. Chakwas said is another thing that would be floating around in Shepard's subconscious. This is in ME2 though, right? So every Shepard experiences that conversation.

#28506
RavenEyry
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:25

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Skillz1986 wrote...

Hey, something just crossed my mind. I was talking to dr. Chakwas about my facial scars and she mentioned that n order to heal them, i (well, shep) need to be a little less "realistic" and a bit mor optimistic.

Odd since renegade dialogue in 3 is way more optimistic than paragons.

#28507
Skillz1986
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:27

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Nope it's me 3..sorry to disappoint.

#28508
BatmanTurian
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:27

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Xilizhra wrote...

Confidence can be gained when facts and evidence are on your side.

Knowledge, if you will? I take it that you disagree with Darwin on this matter, then.


you can be confident and still be ignorant, but it is a different kind of confidence when knowledge is on your side, the kind Darwin would have had when he wrote down his theory.

#28509
BatmanTurian
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:28

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Skillz1986 wrote...

Nope it's me 3..sorry to disappoint.


Eh, i think it's said no matter what in ME3, whether you fixed your implants in ME2 or not. I always did, yet I still remember the conversation taking place.

#28510
Skillz1986
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:32

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Just wanted to point out the realistic/optimistic part concerning renegade or paragon choices.
Also@xill...vast majority is a little exegarated don't you think?

#28511
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:32

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Xilizhra wrote...

I personally advocate for all three endings to avoid indoctrination, because none of them actually fit with the Reapers' ideals. Destroy is obvious, though in a way it's actually the most Reaper-like because of the accompanying genocide. Control is exerting your own will over the Reapers and forcing them to break their cycle. Synthesis is rendering the cycle impossible to continue by destroying the Reapers' superiority and any claims of being "beyond" the rest of the galaxy. Only Refusal is truly failing to stop the Reapers and allowing them to continue doing what they're doing.


This reminds me of the original big Indoctrination video, where it is noted that all of the endings are still ENDINGS OF HOPE, in Shepard's mind, with HIGH EMS.

Even if Synthesis means indoctrination, it also means that Harbinger hasn't taken Shepard's hope, and may even be incapable of doing so. It leaves things open to a dramatic set of events after this ending, for sure. Destroy would still be the best, but Control and Synthesis may also indicate that Shepard's spark, his 'aura', etc, isn't extinguished, even if his mind is currently compromised.

But yeah, Refuse may mean that Shepard even gave up hope (for this cycle), as Saren did. Saren didn't have hope, he had despiration.

#28512
Xilizhra
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:34

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Skillz1986 wrote...

Just wanted to point out the realistic/optimistic part concerning renegade or paragon choices.
Also@xill...vast majority is a little exegarated don't you think?

No.

Even if Synthesis means indoctrination, it also means that Harbinger
hasn't taken Shepard's hope, and may even be incapable of doing so. It
leaves things open to a dramatic set of events after this ending, for
sure. Destroy would still be the best, but Control and Synthesis may
also indicate that Shepard's spark, his 'aura', etc, isn't extinguished,
even if his mind is currently compromised.

This would be an acceptable compromise.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 02 octobre 2012 - 05:35 .

#28513
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:36

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Xilizhra wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I personally advocate for all three endings to avoid indoctrination, because none of them actually fit with the Reapers' ideals. Destroy is obvious, though in a way it's actually the most Reaper-like because of the accompanying genocide. Control is exerting your own will over the Reapers and forcing them to break their cycle. Synthesis is rendering the cycle impossible to continue by destroying the Reapers' superiority and any claims of being "beyond" the rest of the galaxy. Only Refusal is truly failing to stop the Reapers and allowing them to continue doing what they're doing.


Synthesis is genetic rape on a galactic scale, nothing more, nothing less.
Control is levels of gullibility that I lack the words to describe.

Anyone picking either of these should be treated to a short cutscene of their husk Shepard killing their crew and/or LI followed by the Reapers destroying all life in the galaxy.  Maybe a short "you fool lol" speech from Harbinger for good measure.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Anyway, I had a new idea for how IT may work: the Catalyst is genuine, and trying to help Shepard. Just not in the literal way. Basically, what it's trying to do is break through the fog of indoctrination by presenting Shepard with what are basically three new options. Why? Ask yourself: why did Saren and TIM fall? Because of their ideals? Not quite; because they were indoctrinated and those ideals were using means that would never succeed. And this failure, this succumbing, is summed up in Refusal. It's a Shepard who only wanted to destroy the Reapers on her own terms, a Shepard who believed, in the words of Javik, that the "war would end with [her] honor intact." The refusal to act differently in the face of annihilation is the ultimate knell of indoctrination's success, and I believe this is best summed up when even the Catalyst's vision fades, replaced by a Reaper's voice.
What the other three options are, ultimately, don't matter. All of them stop the Reapers in a different way, and that's what matters; that Shepard, ultimately, was more dedicated to stopping the Reapers than holding to the ideals and paradigms that had since become corrupted by indoctrination. Adapting through willpower to to break through the Reapers.


And this may be why Bioware seems to love Synthesis. ALL 3 endings might continue the story in a later game, but while Destroy is straight-forward "I'm here to kill the Reapers", Synthesis is "I'm here on everyone else's side, but I'm secretly indoctrinated and this needs to be dealt with."
Basically it is better because it is more interesting to write about.

This is if IT is to be assumed, and Shepard is alive actually in all three endings (just that High EMS Destroy illustrates how he is 'more' alive).

#28514
Davik Kang
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:37

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Skillz1986 wrote...

Hey, something just crossed my mind. I was talking to dr. Chakwas about my facial scars and she mentioned that n order to heal them, i (well, shep) need to be a little less "realistic" and a bit mor optimistic.
This doesn't seem like much and maybe it isn't, bu it may shed some light as to why the end choices are coloured like renegade or paragon options. According to chakwas, being renegade means being a realist.
Now me3 often showed that "good intentions" are not always goimg to cut it. Most of the times it does so with ems for example, letting private talavi transfer to a reaper zone istead of fighting cerberus (because she doesn't want to fight her brother..whom you might already gave killed in the first n7mission) is clearly a paragon choice..but it is the wrong choice concerning ems. There are a lot more of such examples but this post is already too long. Point is..destroy is the realistic option while control seems to be optimistic but deemed to fail.

Yeah it's a good point, and I think realism and optimism are really good ways to describe the sentiment behind Paragon and Renegade.  They're not supposed to be 'Good' and 'Bad', and certainly not 'Right' and 'Wrong'.

The end choices are the same.  Control is Paragon because you're choosing to spare the Reapers and give them a chance, just like you can with the Geth and the Rachni (this choice becomes more appealing because it includes the apparent condition that you 'control' the Reapers).  Destroy is the Renegade option because you're sticking to violence and even committing genocide, but because it seems to be the only way to truly save as many sentient beings as you can.

I keep posting this (sorry) but the point is summed up quite well by the Choice trailer for Mass Effect 1, which was also available from the title screen if you didn't press anything:


#28515
Rifneno
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:37

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SwobyJ wrote...

This reminds me of the original big Indoctrination video, where it is noted that all of the endings are still ENDINGS OF HOPE, in Shepard's mind, with HIGH EMS.

Even if Synthesis means indoctrination, it also means that Harbinger hasn't taken Shepard's hope, and may even be incapable of doing so. It leaves things open to a dramatic set of events after this ending, for sure. Destroy would still be the best, but Control and Synthesis may also indicate that Shepard's spark, his 'aura', etc, isn't extinguished, even if his mind is currently compromised.

But yeah, Refuse may mean that Shepard even gave up hope (for this cycle), as Saren did. Saren didn't have hope, he had despiration.


So Shepard can play in the Matrix while the Reapers kill trillions of people.  Sounds about right.

#28516
Xilizhra
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:38

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Yeah it's a good point, and I think realism and optimism are really good ways to describe the sentiment behind Paragon and Renegade. They're not supposed to be 'Good' and 'Bad', and certainly not 'Right' and 'Wrong'.

Optimism and pessimism, more like, as Paragon options more often than not lead to better outcomes than Renegade options.
And I notice you don't mention Synthesis.

#28517
Skillz1986
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:39

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There are at least as many renegade options to boost your ems as there are paragon. You are meant to choose wisely in these situations. And a lot of times renegade is the right option..as i've already mentioned private talavi/the civillian ship in the docks which you have to send away/ the ptsd asari you DON'T give a gun to protect herself/ you back the c-sec officer who essantially wnats to impose martial law on the citadel..the list goes on. I'm not saying it outweighs paragon..but you're meant tho think twice about who you're going to support.

#28518
demersel
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:39

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BatmanTurian wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

So going back to that new wallpaper. There definitely looks like some sort of overlay image going on in the right corner.


it looks like Jeff or EDI's console IMO.


what's a "Jeff or EDI's console"??

#28519
Xilizhra
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:41

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Skillz1986 wrote...

There are at least as many renegade options to boost your ems as there are paragon. You are meant to choose wisely in these situations. And a lot of times renegade is the right option..as i've already mentioned private talavi/the civillian ship in the docks which you have to send away/ the ptsd asari you DON'T give a gun to protect herself/ you back the c-sec officer who essantially wnats to impose martial law on the citadel..the list goes on. I'm not saying it outweighs paragon..but you're meant tho think twice about who you're going to support.

Hah. The traumatized asari decision isn't Paragon/Renegade, it's total nitwit/functionally intelligent. Also, none of the C-SEC officers actually back martial law, it's just that one of them wants more of a focus on larger issues. And I'm talking about larger EMS boosters too; for instance, you get way more EMS points by going the Paragon route all the way through the krogan story.

#28520
Davik Kang
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:42

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Xilizhra wrote...
Optimism and pessimism, more like, as Paragon options more often than not lead to better outcomes than Renegade options.
And I notice you don't mention Synthesis.

I guess you could say pessimism, I'd say more like cynicism.  They probably do help more overall, if you analysed it, but the point is that the optimistic choice is not always the right one.

EDIT: oh about synthesis I didn't mention because it wasn't relevant to that point, but I see Synthesis as between Paragon and Renegade.  Optimistic because it is building new life for the future, but renegade because it is genetically re-engineering all life, without consent.


Skillz1986 wrote...
There are at least as many renegade options to boost your ems as there are paragon. You are meant to choose wisely in these situations. And a lot of times renegade is the right option..as i've already mentioned private talavi/the civillian ship in the docks which you have to send away/ the ptsd asari you DON'T give a gun to protect herself/ you back the c-sec officer who essantially wnats to impose martial law on the citadel..the list goes on. I'm not saying it outweighs paragon..but you're meant tho think twice about who you're going to support.

Indeed!  This is exaclty how I thought throughout the whole trilogy.  It was what Shepard's personality was built around when I was playing.  Probably because of that trailer.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 02 octobre 2012 - 05:45 .

#28521
Skillz1986
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:44

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Of course the ptsd choice is paragon/renegade..but i think that's interpretation but the c sec officers ? "you make it sound like we're under martial law"
"well after an attack on the citadel..maybe we should be" not an exact quote but..there you go.
And what's with that unnecesary "ha" at the beginning of your post?

#28522
demersel
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:45

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Renegade dialog in ME3 overall tends to be more to the point and practical - when paragon seem to be very vague and unsure of what it really wants to say. Great example of it would be turian platoon mission. How many of you seen the renegade version of it?

#28523
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:45

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Rifneno wrote...

I stopped reading at "Catalyst is genuine and trying to help Shepard".

Posted Image

"The relationship is symbiotic, organic and machine intertwined, a union of flesh and steel, the strengths of both, the weaknesses of neither! I am a vision of the future Shepard, the evolution of all organic life!" - Saren "Marauder Beta" Arterius

But yeah, synthesis sounds awesome and totally scientifically plausible!


No, synthesis still sucks.

But consider the fully indoctrinated. They're either totally mad, or they lost ALL hope (Saren, Benezia, Kenson), allowing the Reapers a stronger foothold in their mind.

If TIM in the ending isn't real (and is just a manifestation, like Anderson), then the real TIM may only look haggard, but not huskified (I think there is ONE shot in the game of him in-person, and he looks more tired than his holograms but still organic). He may also still have a 'legit' (kinda) plan to stop the Reapers.

And he wouldn't have fallen why? Because he still has hope. The problem is just that it is a weak hope, and only for humanity, not for anyone else. Renegade Shepard may be under the same lines - he has hope, but only for a more select few of the galaxy, especially if one is a human-centric renegade. Paragon Shepard does still get the benefit here, because he has hope usually for at least almost all of the galaxy.

This could mean that Synthesis is a victory by the Reapers (in ME3, but who knows what a possible ME4 might bring), Control is a stalemate, and Destroy is a defeat by the Reapers. Refuse is also a victory by the Reapers but they are angered that Shepard never resisted. He is useless to them now.


So if all three endings can be transferred to a future game (hypothetically), one could choose Destroy for a straight-forward hero victory like Destory-ME2 and SaveCouncil-ME1 were, but Control for a more complex story, and Synthesis for a more heartwrenching one. All may bring victory over the Reapers with the right setup (character relationships, EMS, assets, previous choices), or defeat under them.

A small example of this is the Citadel Coup. You always stop it, but sometimes VS dies, and sometimes by your hands, or sometimes by a squadmate's hands, or sometimes the VS stops Udina, or sometimes you stop Udina.

Imagine the same scenario, except with you indoctrinated and your team, depending on choices, being able to kill you, stop you, or even persuade you to resist?

#28524
Xilizhra
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:46

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I guess you could say pessimism, I'd say more like cynicism. They probably do help more overall, if you analysed it, but the point is that the optimistic choice is not always the right one.

Not always, but usually. And so it can be right here.

#28525
BatmanTurian
Posté 02 octobre 2012 - 05:47

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demersel wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

So going back to that new wallpaper. There definitely looks like some sort of overlay image going on in the right corner.


it looks like Jeff or EDI's console IMO.


what's a "Jeff or EDI's console"??


From the cockpit, which you've repeatedly said was what was there.
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