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[RavenEyry]

Davik Kang wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...
They may sound strong when talking down Mr. Sparkle, but they lack the true conviction to escape from this mind game.

Ok.  It seems like a bit of an assumption, but there's no way to really disprove what you said.  Certainly Shepard makes a weaker choice in Refuse.  So I guess then, she doesn't wake up at all?  Or she wakes up, but lacks the conviction to lead the Alliance to victory?

Doesn't wake up at all. What I'm saying is they don't break free from the illusion. Refusing to take an option is not the same as taking an option. I'm not very good at explaining it, sorry.

[Dwailing]

Davik Kang wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...
They may sound strong when talking down Mr. Sparkle, but they lack the true conviction to escape from this mind game.

Ok.  It seems like a bit of an assumption, but there's no way to really disprove what you said.  Certainly Shepard makes a weaker choice in Refuse.  So I guess then, she doesn't wake up at all?  Or she wakes up, but lacks the conviction to lead the Alliance to victory?

 

Those are both valid possibilities, but since we don't know where BioWare plans to go after revealing IT, none of us can make definitive statements about what's going to happen next.

Edit: Or, as Raven said, Shepard might not wake up at all.  In fact, that probably seems to be the most likely outcome. 

Modifié par Dwailing, 03 octobre 2012 - 01:19 .

[demersel]

Davik Kang wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...
They may sound strong when talking down Mr. Sparkle, but they lack the true conviction to escape from this mind game.

Ok.  It seems like a bit of an assumption, but there's no way to really disprove what you said.  Certainly Shepard makes a weaker choice in Refuse.  So I guess then, she doesn't wake up at all?  Or she wakes up, but lacks the conviction to lead the Alliance to victory?

actually shepard DOES make a choice in refuse. And she says it right away - "I'd rather die!" -  and that is what refuse is - choosing to die. 

[Dwailing]

demersel wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...
They may sound strong when talking down Mr. Sparkle, but they lack the true conviction to escape from this mind game.

Ok.  It seems like a bit of an assumption, but there's no way to really disprove what you said.  Certainly Shepard makes a weaker choice in Refuse.  So I guess then, she doesn't wake up at all?  Or she wakes up, but lacks the conviction to lead the Alliance to victory?

actually shepard DOES make a choice in refuse. And she says it right away - "I'd rather die!" -  and that is what refuse is - choosing to die. 

You know, I just had a thought.  The races of the galaxy might still be able to win in Refuse.  You know why?  Because even if Shepard doesn't break free from the hallucination, the Reapers won't be able to use him like they would if he chose Control or Synthesis.  He might even have a chance to survive, even if he doesn't participate in the conflict any more.  However, he would not be there to help the organics, which WOULD be a major blow to moral (Though not as much as being indoctrinated would be).

[RavenEyry]

RavenEyry wrote...

Another thing I just thought on the theme of sacrifice, destroy doesn't come with up sides for shepard. They're told they will die in all three actions but control will supposedly give them god like powers and synthesis has some 'they live on in all of us' bullcrap, but as far as they know, destroy will make them just die. I think that makes destroy an even bigger sacrifice than just the promised collateral damage.

I was wondering if there were any thoughts on this.

[demersel]

Dwailing wrote...

You know, I just had a thought.  The races of the galaxy might still be able to win in Refuse.  You know why?  Because even if Shepard doesn't break free from the hallucination, the Reapers won't be able to use him like they would if he chose Control or Synthesis.  He might even have a chance to survive, even if he doesn't participate in the conflict any more.  However, he would not be there to help the organics, which WOULD be a major blow to moral (Though not as much as being indoctrinated would be).

except they don't. The slides are fake etc, and the refuse transmission from liara also, but the stargazer scene changes. And only for refuse. That means that shepard is yet to do something for this cycle to win, and the condition for this is him being alive indoctrinated or not. - his death at this exact point somehow means the fall of present cycle. (or at least the death of the male stargazer person, cause he's not there to tell the tale) 

[demersel]

Of course the breath scene might just be a quick snap out of the come to get right back into it until you are rescued, and this way the stargazer's scene is a just shepard's mind continuing dreaming in some stand by mode. )))

[paxxton]

Nah, that scene is just an Easter Egg to let the player know that Shepard isn't done yet.

[Eryri]

RavenEyry wrote...

RavenEyry wrote...

Another thing I just thought on the theme of sacrifice, destroy doesn't come with up sides for shepard. They're told they will die in all three actions but control will supposedly give them god like powers and synthesis has some 'they live on in all of us' bullcrap, but as far as they know, destroy will make them just die. I think that makes destroy an even bigger sacrifice than just the promised collateral damage.

I was wondering if there were any thoughts on this.

I dimly remember getting in a discussion about this with Simon Says and Subastris a few months ago (God has it been that long?) 

I remember the Catalyst being a bit vague on whether Destroy would mean certain death for Shepard - "even you are partly synthetic". It's much less definite than "you will die, you will lose everything you have" in control for example.

Subastris was asking why the Catalyst would try to make Destroy (his least favourite option in the context of IT) seem less frightening by giving some hope that Shepard may survive.

I thought this ambiguity may be another bit of manipulation to disuade Paragons from choosing Destroy. The possibility of Shepard surviving at the expense of Edi and the Geth would be distasteful to those playing him / her as a selfless paragon. The Catalyst uses Shepard's (and the player's) guilt against them.

Modifié par Eryri, 03 octobre 2012 - 01:46 .

[RavenEyry]

Eryri wrote...

I thought this ambiguity may be another bit of manipulation to disuade Paragons from choosing Destroy. The possibility of Shepard surviving at the expense of Edi and the Geth would be distasteful to those playing him / her as a selfless paragon. The Catalyst uses Shepard's (and the player's) guilt against them.

Yeah I know it's vague, my point was if you take all three to result in death, destroy appears to be the worst 'death'. I do like the idea of sacrificing others but living being distasteful, another layer of manipulation on the part of the impartial exposition device.

[paxxton]

Yknow what? The Catalyst's chamber is definitely in Shepard's head. The whole gameplay mechanics there is completely different than in any other part of the game. ME3 becomes a platformer with a giant puzzle.

Modifié par paxxton, 03 octobre 2012 - 02:04 .

[Eryri]

RavenEyry wrote...

Yeah I know it's vague, my point was if you take all three to result in death, destroy appears to be the worst 'death'. I do like the idea of sacrificing others but living being distasteful, another layer of manipulation on the part of the impartial exposition device.

Sorry if I was stating the obvious. I agree, Destroy does seem the most ... I suppose the word is "bleak" death from Shepard's point of view. Control and Synthesis both appeal to the player's latent messiah complexes.

[paxxton]

Choose Wisely Ep.2 is expected to go online tomorrow if someone doesn't know it yet.

Modifié par paxxton, 03 octobre 2012 - 02:05 .

[paxxton]

Also, I'm running low on speculation ideas. Omega better be released soon.

[Eryri]

paxxton wrote...

Choose Wisely Ep.2 is expected to go online tomorrow if someone doesn't know it yet.

Looking forward to it. What is Hellish's supposedly far-out theory that I've been reading about?

Not the MP simulator one, the other one that no one seems to dare talk about in detail?

[RavenEyry]

Eryri wrote...
I agree, Destroy does seem the most ... I suppose the word is "bleak" death from Shepard's point of view. Control and Synthesis both appeal to the player's latent messiah complexes.

I think you get it, but just incase I didn't say it clearly enough (for everyone), this is completely ignoring the other consequences, geth, reapers, green lines for everyone, etc. For Shepard personally, it appears to be a choice between 'ascending' in some form, or just dying. It's like the other choices are supposed to be more tempting on a personal scale as well as a galactic one. If you were told you must die and your choice was between becoming one with the force every living being or just dying what would you choose. (depends how philosiphical you are I suppose)

[paxxton]

Eryri wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Choose Wisely Ep.2 is expected to go online tomorrow if someone doesn't know it yet.

Looking forward to it. What is Hellish's supposedly far-out theory that I've been reading about?

Not the MP simulator one, the other one that no one seems to dare talk about in detail?

He only talked about MP being a simulator. He also mentioned that it incorporates nicely into a grander theory, but didn't disclose any details. Was there any other theory he foreshadowed?

[Eryri]

paxxton wrote...

Eryri wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Choose Wisely Ep.2 is expected to go online tomorrow if someone doesn't know it yet.

Looking forward to it. What is Hellish's supposedly far-out theory that I've been reading about?

Not the MP simulator one, the other one that no one seems to dare talk about in detail?

He only talked about MP being a simulator. He also mentioned that it incorporates nicely into a grander theory, but didn't disclose any details. Was there any other theory he foreshadowed?

I think it's the grander theory I've been hearing about. I've not heard any details, but I think BleedingUranium and TJBartelmus were talking about it?

Maybe it'll be in Episode 2.

Modifié par Eryri, 03 octobre 2012 - 02:19 .

[demersel]

paxxton wrote...

Choose Wisely Ep.2 is expected to go online tomorrow if someone doesn't know it yet.

Nah - I already know what it is building towards. Lame. ))

[demersel]

I know his theory, but i will not tell you guys - cause, even though i think that he got to caught up in thinking how awesome is he for figuring it all out (which he sadly did not) i really respect the effort he put in it all.

Modifié par demersel, 03 octobre 2012 - 02:31 .

[Restrider]

Davik Kang wrote...

ElSuperGecko wrote...
I just posted a thread about the potential for conventional victory, which may have implications for IT.

I posted a reply in that thread, but there's something else more IT-related that I wanted to ask in here.

It's about the Refuse ending.  If you accept that the whole end is a dream/hallucination from the Harbinger blast, and more importantly, if you accept that your final choices have no effect on the battle, other than the battle in Shepard's mind, then the final choice is about accepting, or refusing to go along with, the Reapers' version of events.

I've already asked about Refuse in this context, and IT guys said that it's a failure condition.  Some said because you are indoctrinated, others said it's because you gave up and are trapped in your mind.

But the thing I want to get at is, the Dialogue options of Refuse and the physical acts involved (e.g. shooting the ReaperKid) seem to fit very well thematically with the intentions of breaking indoctrination.  You refuse to accept what he suggests; you resolve to find another way.  You shoot a gun at him, effectively saying, "f*** you".

Whereas saying "Yeah ok, let's get this over with", shooting a bunch of tubes, and accepting that EDI / Geth / possibly others have to die, seems in the context of a dream, to be at least partially accepting what the Kid says.

So, why is Destroy the right ending in IT theory?  Refuse does seem to open up the same objections or possibly more.  In Refuse you don't choose to kill the Reapers, but you don't refuse to kill them either.  You make a stand against the moral conundrum and resolve to keep fighting.

This is a point I'd like to discuss, though my answer is a bit late.
In my first playthrough (it was august with EC installed) I was standing there with starbinger, knowing that something was odd (I did not spoil myself, so I had no idea of the amount of endings or IT).
In the end I listened to what he offered my and refused it. He did say that he is aligned to the reapers to begin with and I was well aware of the fact that if you did somehow follow reaper suggestions this might end in indoctrination. I hoped for some kind of epic last battle and got the noisy Liara VI <_<.

Without knowing the outcome, Refuse felt even better than Destroy, since in Destroy you still give the words of starbinger legitimacy.

I think the main reason for the common view in the IT that Destroy is better than Refuse is based in the breath scene that only happens in high EMS Destroy.
OT: Happy Unification Day to whom it may concern.

[paxxton]

demersel wrote...

I know his theory, but i will not tell you guys - cause, even though i think that he got to caught up in thinking how awesome is he for figuring it all out (which he sadly did not) i really respect the effort he put in it all.

 Just wait till he and his friend decide to unveil it completely.

Modifié par paxxton, 03 octobre 2012 - 02:38 .

[demersel]

paxxton wrote...

demersel wrote...

I know his theory, but i will not tell you guys - cause, even though i think that he got to caught up in thinking how awesome is he for figuring it all out (which he sadly did not) i really respect the effort he put in it all.

 You should wait until he and his friend decide to unveil it completely.

really? what for? The killer is the gardener. 

[paxxton]

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...

demersel wrote...

I know his theory, but i will not tell you guys - cause, even though i think that he got to caught up in thinking how awesome is he for figuring it all out (which he sadly did not) i really respect the effort he put in it all.

 You should wait until he and his friend decide to unveil it completely.

really? what for? The killer is the gardener. 

Hellish only revealed that they have the ultimate theory so we don't have anything concrete to discuss yet.

Modifié par paxxton, 03 octobre 2012 - 02:43 .

[Engared]

I am still utterly for the indoctrination theory. The EC did nothing to fix the endings if anything they might have made them worst because it closed the book on the ME universe.