80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Heimdall]

byne wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The game isn't over until it's over. As of now, my Shepard has no reason to believe in being indoctrinated. If an IT DLC comes out, she then will. Either way, I'm fine.

if your Shepard suspected she was being indoctrinated, it'd ruin the whole thing. The Reapers rely on their thralls not realizing they're indoctrinated.

So in other words, if you have no reason to believe you're indoctrinated, you're indoctrinated!

Fine logic...

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 07 octobre 2012 - 10:53 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, you just killed trillions of enslaved memories of past cycles. Maybe quadrillions. Congratulations.

So better to further enslave them as long as they have use?

[Heimdall]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, you just killed trillions of enslaved memories of past cycles. Maybe quadrillions. Congratulations.

So better to further enslave them as long as they have use?

Who said anything about re-enslaving?

[Xilizhra]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, you just killed trillions of enslaved memories of past cycles. Maybe quadrillions. Congratulations.

So better to further enslave them as long as they have use?

Temporarily. I intend to release them as soon as I've ensured their safety.

Who said anything about re-enslaving?

I currently err more towards Control than Synthesis.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 07 octobre 2012 - 10:55 .

[byne]

Lord Aesir wrote...

byne wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The game isn't over until it's over. As of now, my Shepard has no reason to believe in being indoctrinated. If an IT DLC comes out, she then will. Either way, I'm fine.

if your Shepard suspected she was being indoctrinated, it'd ruin the whole thing. The Reapers rely on their thralls not realizing they're indoctrinated.

So in other words, if you have no reason to believe you're indoctrinated, you're indoctrinated!

Fine logic...

No, the player can suspect it, Shepard cant. I'm talking from an in-universe perspective.

[Heimdall]

Xilizhra wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Yes, you just killed trillions of enslaved memories of past cycles. Maybe quadrillions. Congratulations.

So better to further enslave them as long as they have use?

Temporarily. I intend to release them as soon as I've ensured their safety.

Who said anything about re-enslaving?

I currently err more towards Control than Synthesis.

Ah, that makes sense (Control is always my second choice)

[Xilizhra]

No, the player can suspect it, Shepard cant. I'm talking from an in-universe perspective.

My Shepard will only choose Destroy if she suspects indoctrination.

Ah, that makes sense (Control is always my second choice)

Synthesis is mine. I'm wobbling some.

[Heimdall]

byne wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

byne wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

The game isn't over until it's over. As of now, my Shepard has no reason to believe in being indoctrinated. If an IT DLC comes out, she then will. Either way, I'm fine.

if your Shepard suspected she was being indoctrinated, it'd ruin the whole thing. The Reapers rely on their thralls not realizing they're indoctrinated.

So in other words, if you have no reason to believe you're indoctrinated, you're indoctrinated!

Fine logic...

No, the player can suspect it, Shepard cant. I'm talking from an in-universe perspective.

Then how do you justify an IT theory that relies on destroy being the correct choice if Shepard has no idea she's indoctrinated?

[Xilizhra]

Then how do you justify an IT theory that relies on destroy being the correct choice if Shepard has no idea she's indoctrinated?

So far as I can tell, only genocidal Shepards have the moral fiber to break indoctrination.

[BatmanTurian]

Geez I leave the thread for an hour and it gets trashed. tsk tsk. This is why we can't have nice things.

[Hrothdane]

Xilizhra wrote...
Yes, you just killed trillions of enslaved memories of past cycles. Maybe quadrillions.

If the Reapers are actually the preserved remains of harvested civilizations and in fact the entire purpose of the Reapers is to preserve those civilizations, why do they get turned into front-line battleships? Why do none of the Reapers seem to care about protecting each other? Why even risk the chance that those preserved civilizations would be destroyed? 

[BatmanTurian]

Xilizhra wrote...

Then how do you justify an IT theory that relies on destroy being the correct choice if Shepard has no idea she's indoctrinated?

So far as I can tell, only genocidal Shepards have the moral fiber to break indoctrination.

the geth are programs, so is EDI. They have no real physical bodies and can be backed up (and were backed up).

They won't be the same but they can be rebuilt. It's not genocide because machines have no genes.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 07 octobre 2012 - 11:01 .

[BatmanTurian]

Hrothdane wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Yes, you just killed trillions of enslaved memories of past cycles. Maybe quadrillions.

If the Reapers are actually the preserved remains of harvested civilizations and in fact the entire purpose of the Reapers is to preserve those civilizations, why do they get turned into front-line battleships? Why do none of the Reapers seem to care about protecting each other? Why even risk the chance that those preserved civilizations would be destroyed? 

This is an excellent point.

[Xilizhra]

If the Reapers are actually the preserved remains of harvested civilizations and in fact the entire purpose of the Reapers is to preserve those civilizations, why do they get turned into front-line battleships? Why do none of the Reapers seem to care about protecting each other? Why even risk the chance that those preserved civilizations would be destroyed?

Because harvesting is more efficient if they're all one thing. Also, the Catalyst places a lower priority on keeping individual civilizations safe than perpetuating organic life, period.

the geth are programs, so is EDI. They have no real physical bodies and can be backed up (and were backed up).

They won't be the same but they can be rebuilt. It's not genocide because machines have no genes.

Yes, with all of the original personalities obliterated, effectively permanent and unfixable brain death. It remains genocide.

[Heimdall]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Then how do you justify an IT theory that relies on destroy being the correct choice if Shepard has no idea she's indoctrinated?

So far as I can tell, only genocidal Shepards have the moral fiber to break indoctrination.

the geth are programs, so is EDI. They have no real physical bodies and can be backed up (and were backed up).

They won't be the same but they can be rebuilt. It's not genocide because machines have no genes.

I'm pretty sure destroy extends beyond their physical platforms...

[Sauron001]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Geez I leave the thread for an hour and it gets trashed. tsk tsk. This is why we can't have nice things.

Must be the thread bandits 

[BatmanTurian]

Xilizhra wrote...

If the Reapers are actually the preserved remains of harvested civilizations and in fact the entire purpose of the Reapers is to preserve those civilizations, why do they get turned into front-line battleships? Why do none of the Reapers seem to care about protecting each other? Why even risk the chance that those preserved civilizations would be destroyed?

Because harvesting is more efficient if they're all one thing. Also, the Catalyst places a lower priority on keeping individual civilizations safe than perpetuating organic life, period.

the geth are programs, so is EDI. They have no real physical bodies and can be backed up (and were backed up).

They won't be the same but they can be rebuilt. It's not genocide because machines have no genes.

Yes, with all of the original personalities obliterated, effectively permanent and unfixable brain death. It remains genocide.

They signed up for war. They are the collateral damage. You have a sentiment for machines that would find the same choice logical.

[masster blaster]

Top Ten :

I) Indoctrination in general :

Regarding IT, Shepard is in the process of indoctrination and the outcome is decided by the final decision taken.

The concept of indoctrination is a crucial part throughout the trilogy and nothing new to the player (link 1and 2).

Rana Thanoptis is an example of how subtle and slow indoctrination can be.

Shepard knocked out for two days by a Reaper artifact that indoctrinated an entire facility.

Logs on the derelict Reaper illustrate the reactions of victims of indoctrination.

Paul Grayson's indoctrination show its effects on someone's mind.

Harbinger's smacktalk (link 1 and 2).



List of in-game reasons:

1) The Breath Scene :
- London rubble
- Mako in the background
- Citadel explosion

2) The Kid :
- teleportation in Vancouver
- opens a door that is marked as locked
- survives blast
- not seen by anyone else
- warning symbols

3) The Dreams :
- dream sequences and post-beam sequence share the same game mechanics
- reality-nonreality transition after beam shot (post-beam, dreams, Geth Consensus)
- oily shadows and whispering
- nightmares are mentioned in the Arrival by subjects being indoctrinated
- Chambers and Asari having PTSD as comparison between PTSD & Shepard's dreams

4) The Citadel :
- resembling events of the past
- Coats dead on the Citadel

5) Anderson & TIM :
- how did Anderson follow Shepard?
- how can Anderson reach the control first?
- why did no one else follow Anderson?
- from where did TIM shows up?
- Anderson addressing Shepard ("They are controlling you!")
- Shepard being dominated by TIM and thus through him by the Reapers
- Anderson's wound (link 1 and 2)
- Reaper horn played in the background (at 1/2 speed)

6) Leviathan :
- Harbinger/the Reapers perfected enthrallment to indoctrination
- enthrallment uses memories of its victim
- similarities between Leviathan end and decision chamber
- zap sound as a sign to enter/leave virtual reality (link 1 and 2)
- note the file name of the sixth murder that can be found in Bryson's lab

7) The Choices :
- Shepard on his knees happened only during/after some mind control
- the Guardian is aligned to the Reapers
- Control and Synthesis being supported by indoctrinated characters
- a swap in the colours (TIM = Paragon; Anderson = Renegade)
- huskification during Control/Synthesis vs. Shepard gaining strength while shooting the tubes
- Guardian losing it when you refuse ("SO BE IT!")
- decision chamber looks like a dialogue wheel from an aerial view
- decision chamber resembling beam
- ambiguous end dialogue (Control/Synthesis)
- slide shows in Control/Synthesis/Destroy illustrate future possibilities, not facts that already happened
- soldiers in Destroy fighting fiercely while in Control/Synthesis they are losing (on a side note: no cheering in Synthesis)

8) The Beam Run :
- Harbinger pin-pointing everyone and everything but Shepard
- Harbinger not destroying the Normandy
- Shepard surviving the blast that one-shots Makos and Gunships
- Harbinger leaving

9) The Guardian :
- has the same shape as the kid (extraction of Shepard's memories)
- speaks with femshep's and broshep's voice
- Harbinger's line in the MP trailer (link 1 and 2)



List of meta-reasons :

1) IT is as valid as a literal interpretation

2) new game in the MEU :
- prequel with humans would only have the First Contact War as topic
- prequel without humans would alienate a big part of the fanbase
- prequel in a previous cycle is like a whole new universe
- any prequel would have an already known ending
- a game during the events of ME1-ME3 would not be able to have any choices with impact
- Control has no real conflict potential, since we have Shreaper/Harpard
- Synthesis has no real conflict potential, since everything is nice and dandy
- Refuse has no real potential
- this only leaves Destroy as possible candidate as canon

plese try to from an argument against this. Also half of this stuff is hyperlinked, but they won't apper on here, so here is the site.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/355/index/13414717/1180#14344443


Also there is one in your site, so happy reading.

Modifié par masster blaster, 07 octobre 2012 - 11:07 .

[byne]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Then how do you justify an IT theory that relies on destroy being the correct choice if Shepard has no idea she's indoctrinated?

Only a Shepard focused on her mission above all other distractions can resist indoctrination. If you let the inevitable losses of life hold you back, you will fail.

[Heimdall]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If the Reapers are actually the preserved remains of harvested civilizations and in fact the entire purpose of the Reapers is to preserve those civilizations, why do they get turned into front-line battleships? Why do none of the Reapers seem to care about protecting each other? Why even risk the chance that those preserved civilizations would be destroyed?

Because harvesting is more efficient if they're all one thing. Also, the Catalyst places a lower priority on keeping individual civilizations safe than perpetuating organic life, period.

the geth are programs, so is EDI. They have no real physical bodies and can be backed up (and were backed up).

They won't be the same but they can be rebuilt. It's not genocide because machines have no genes.

Yes, with all of the original personalities obliterated, effectively permanent and unfixable brain death. It remains genocide.

They signed up for war. They are the collateral damage. You have a sentiment for machines that would find the same choice logical.

...And its still genocide

Just noting that breaking indoctrination seems to require you to embrace their methods.

[Xilizhra]

They signed up for war. They are the collateral damage. You have a sentiment for machines that would find the same choice logical.

Everyone fighting in the war is willing to die in it. This doesn't mean I want them dead, and I refuse to kill them.

Only a Shepard focused on her mission above all other distractions can
resist indoctrination. If you let the inevitable losses of life hold you
back, you will fail.

Or, in my case, knowledge of being indoctrinated.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 07 octobre 2012 - 11:08 .

[BatmanTurian]

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Then how do you justify an IT theory that relies on destroy being the correct choice if Shepard has no idea she's indoctrinated?

So far as I can tell, only genocidal Shepards have the moral fiber to break indoctrination.

the geth are programs, so is EDI. They have no real physical bodies and can be backed up (and were backed up).

They won't be the same but they can be rebuilt. It's not genocide because machines have no genes.

I'm pretty sure destroy extends beyond their physical platforms...

Geth were self-aware programs before the Reaper code. With the Reaper code removed, they are back to the regular Geth. So is EDI, she is no longer self-aware. Geth could always reproduce by copying programs. Legion was the only Geth that gained a higher self-awareness and that's because he had thousands of programs running inside his physical platform. Since the geth are programs, they can transmit themselves to new platforms.

So as far as Genocide, the only real " person " that died was EDI. The geth are back to being the original geth without the Reaper code. I don't think you people thought this stuff through at all.

[Hrothdane]

Xilizhra wrote...
Because harvesting is more efficient if they're all one thing. Also, the Catalyst places a lower priority on keeping individual civilizations safe than perpetuating organic life, period.

.

Why does that "one thing" have to be a frontline battleship? How do you know the Catalyst's priorities?

[Heimdall]

byne wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Then how do you justify an IT theory that relies on destroy being the correct choice if Shepard has no idea she's indoctrinated?

Only a Shepard focused on her mission above all other distractions can resist indoctrination. If you let the inevitable losses of life hold you back, you will fail.

Reapers use genocide as a means to an end as well.  If you want to be like them, be my guest, just don't pretend it makes you superior.

[Heimdall]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Then how do you justify an IT theory that relies on destroy being the correct choice if Shepard has no idea she's indoctrinated?

So far as I can tell, only genocidal Shepards have the moral fiber to break indoctrination.

the geth are programs, so is EDI. They have no real physical bodies and can be backed up (and were backed up).

They won't be the same but they can be rebuilt. It's not genocide because machines have no genes.

I'm pretty sure destroy extends beyond their physical platforms...

Geth were self-aware programs before the Reaper code. With the Reaper code removed, they are back to the regular Geth. So is EDI, she is no longer self-aware. Geth could always reproduce by copying programs. Legion was the only Geth that gained a higher self-awareness and that's because he had thousands of programs running inside his physical platform. Since the geth are programs, they can transmit themselves to new platforms.

So as far as Genocide, the only real " person " that died was EDI. The geth are back to being the original geth without the Reaper code. I don't think you people thought this stuff through at all.

...That definitely isn't what the game tells us Destroy does.  In fact I'm fairly certain the utter destruction of the geth was mentioned rather explicitly.