80611 réponses à ce sujet

[masster blaster]

Xilizhra wrote...

They signed up for war. They are the collateral damage. You have a sentiment for machines that would find the same choice logical.

Everyone fighting in the war is willing to die in it. This doesn't mean I want them dead, and I refuse to kill them.

Nor do any of us, but that's the thing that is holding you back.

Did you ever let the Council die? Did you sacrifice men, and woman of the
Alliance to save the Council? weather you like it or not YOUR desisions
always have consiquences. Synthesis is the bigesst one if IT comes
true.


Edit top.

Modifié par masster blaster, 07 octobre 2012 - 11:10 .

[Sauron001]

How is destroy genocide? Destroy is just an overpowered EMP blast the frys all electronics.... Hints why no organics will be harmed. Certain types of coating and shielding can actually protect electronics from this type of anomaly. Even Tali's suit would be out of commission unless she has some of that space magic.

[byne]

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

They signed up for war. They are the collateral damage. You have a sentiment for machines that would find the same choice logical.

...And its still genocide

Just noting that breaking indoctrination seems to require you to embrace their methods.

Less so than in Control and Synthesis.

Destroy is only genocide in the sense that Control is slavery and Synthesis is forced molestation. If you want to just pick an offensive term and label choices you dont like that, then we might as well not even discuss it, since that kind of stuff wont get us anywhere.

[Xilizhra]

Hrothdane wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Because harvesting is more efficient if they're all one thing. Also, the Catalyst places a lower priority on keeping individual civilizations safe than perpetuating organic life, period.

.

Why does that "one thing" have to be a frontline battleship? How do you know the Catalyst's priorities?

I'm inferring the Catalyst's priorities from its actions.

Destroy is only genocide in the sense that Control is slavery and
Synthesis is forced molestation. If you want to just pick an offensive
term and label choices you dont like that, then we might as well not
even discuss it, since that kind of stuff wont get us anywhere.

Which is funny, because both slavery and molestation are lesser crimes than genocide.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 07 octobre 2012 - 11:12 .

[Hrothdane]

Lord Aesir wrote...
I'm pretty sure destroy extends beyond their physical platforms...

How do you know that? 

In fact, how do you know that the physical platforms are destroyed?

[BatmanTurian]

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If the Reapers are actually the preserved remains of harvested civilizations and in fact the entire purpose of the Reapers is to preserve those civilizations, why do they get turned into front-line battleships? Why do none of the Reapers seem to care about protecting each other? Why even risk the chance that those preserved civilizations would be destroyed?

Because harvesting is more efficient if they're all one thing. Also, the Catalyst places a lower priority on keeping individual civilizations safe than perpetuating organic life, period.

the geth are programs, so is EDI. They have no real physical bodies and can be backed up (and were backed up).

They won't be the same but they can be rebuilt. It's not genocide because machines have no genes.

Yes, with all of the original personalities obliterated, effectively permanent and unfixable brain death. It remains genocide.

They signed up for war. They are the collateral damage. You have a sentiment for machines that would find the same choice logical.

...And its still genocide

Just noting that breaking indoctrination seems to require you to embrace their methods.

EDI was built with Reaper code. The Geth chose to upload Reaper code. Neither of those choices were made by Shepard. One was made by TIM, and the other by Legion. Unfortunate, but that is the truth. Sometimes doing the right thing is the hardest thing to do and throughout the series, everyone except the antagonists agreed that killing the Reapers was the right thing to do.

EDI and the Geth got caught in the crossfire and that's unfortunate, but the Geth made that choice and EDI already stated she would risk nonfunctionality to keep from being a slave of the Reapers and to protect Jeff.

[Xilizhra]

EDI was built with Reaper code. The Geth chose to upload Reaper code. Neither of those choices were made by Shepard. One was made by TIM, and the other by Legion. Unfortunate, but that is the truth. Sometimes doing the right thing is the hardest thing to do and throughout the series, everyone except the antagonists agreed that killing the Reapers was the right thing to do.

EDI and the Geth got caught in the crossfire and that's unfortunate, but the Geth made that choice and EDI already stated she would risk nonfunctionality to keep from being a slave of the Reapers and to protect Jeff.

That's nice. I still won't kill them. I won't wreck the quarians' future either.

[Arashi08]

Sooo....invasion?

[shepskisaac]

Didn't Tali extract memories from dead Geth in ME1?

[Xilizhra]

IsaacShep wrote...

Didn't Tali extract memories from dead Geth in ME1?

She extracted an audio file.

[masster blaster]

Xilizhra wrote...

EDI was built with Reaper code. The Geth chose to upload Reaper code. Neither of those choices were made by Shepard. One was made by TIM, and the other by Legion. Unfortunate, but that is the truth. Sometimes doing the right thing is the hardest thing to do and throughout the series, everyone except the antagonists agreed that killing the Reapers was the right thing to do.

EDI and the Geth got caught in the crossfire and that's unfortunate, but the Geth made that choice and EDI already stated she would risk nonfunctionality to keep from being a slave of the Reapers and to protect Jeff.

That's nice. I still won't kill them. I won't wreck the quarians' future either.

So you would erase everyones memorys about the Reaper war in Synthesis. I say this because that's what happence. Any Shepard's squad would fight to the end to kill the Reapers, and so would everyone else. Synthesis just gave everyone new DNA. NO reason to stop fighting. Also how are the masters in Synthesis. The Reapes.

[BatmanTurian]

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Then how do you justify an IT theory that relies on destroy being the correct choice if Shepard has no idea she's indoctrinated?

So far as I can tell, only genocidal Shepards have the moral fiber to break indoctrination.

the geth are programs, so is EDI. They have no real physical bodies and can be backed up (and were backed up).

They won't be the same but they can be rebuilt. It's not genocide because machines have no genes.

I'm pretty sure destroy extends beyond their physical platforms...

Geth were self-aware programs before the Reaper code. With the Reaper code removed, they are back to the regular Geth. So is EDI, she is no longer self-aware. Geth could always reproduce by copying programs. Legion was the only Geth that gained a higher self-awareness and that's because he had thousands of programs running inside his physical platform. Since the geth are programs, they can transmit themselves to new platforms.

So as far as Genocide, the only real " person " that died was EDI. The geth are back to being the original geth without the Reaper code. I don't think you people thought this stuff through at all.

...That definitely isn't what the game tells us Destroy does.  In fact I'm fairly certain the utter destruction of the geth was mentioned rather explicitly.

No it wasn't. It was implied. Logically, however, High EMS Destroy only removes Reaper code. It's like the Geth Concensus mission except more efficient and precise. The programs left behind still exist and aren't Reaper code.

If you really believe everything the self-professed boss of the Reapers tells you without critically thinking about it, then I have some beachfront property in the Himalayas you might be interested in.

[shepskisaac]

Xilizhra wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

Didn't Tali extract memories from dead Geth in ME1?

She extracted an audio file.

My point is that Quarians can build new Geth, like they already did once, and these Geth can get memories of the old ones. Individuals would be killed, but the race could continue WITH the experience/consensus/morals they aquired previously

[D.Sharrah]

Lord Aesir wrote...

byne wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Then how do you justify an IT theory that relies on destroy being the correct choice if Shepard has no idea she's indoctrinated?

Only a Shepard focused on her mission above all other distractions can resist indoctrination. If you let the inevitable losses of life hold you back, you will fail.

Reapers use genocide as a means to an end as well.  If you want to be like them, be my guest, just don't pretend it makes you superior.

And how isn't synthesis like the Reapers?  Or control for that matter?  We see examples of how the Reapers use both of these choices in game - and it doesn't end well for those that have that choice made for them.  Or do you find what the Reapers do to make frontline soldiers (like husks, marauders, etc.) ok - because that's synthesis....and control - would you want to suffer the same fate as Saren, TIM, Rana, etc... - struggle to do what you feel is right only to disover that you have turned on everything that you once stood for?

Using that logic, if anything, the only choice that does not use a method employed by the Reapers is refuse.  And with that choice (at least as of now) it only dooms the current cycle.

Edited: For grammar - and added bolded to clarify point.

Modifié par D.Sharrah, 07 octobre 2012 - 11:28 .

[Hrothdane]

Xilizhra wrote...

Hrothdane wrote...
Why does that "one thing" have to be a frontline battleship? How do you know the Catalyst's priorities?

I'm inferring the Catalyst's priorities from its actions.

You did not answer my first question.

[Heimdall]

byne wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

They signed up for war. They are the collateral damage. You have a sentiment for machines that would find the same choice logical.

...And its still genocide

Just noting that breaking indoctrination seems to require you to embrace their methods.

Less so than in Control and Synthesis.

Destroy is only genocide in the sense that Control is slavery and Synthesis is forced molestation. If you want to just pick an offensive term and label choices you dont like that, then we might as well not even discuss it, since that kind of stuff wont get us anywhere.

Then go away.

Or if you'd prefer to stay, I'll only say that synthesis takes a concept of transcendance away from Reaper control and allows it to be implemented on Shepard's terms.  Control also takes a method that was previously doomed and allows it to be implemented on Shepard's terms.  You may argue that these things are not so.  That by doing these things we commit horrible crimes but I would argue that this is not so.  We could go back and forth for a time.

Destroy is much more unambiguous.  Either you kill a friend and an entire people of allies along with a great deal of modern technology that will greatly hinder the galactic recovery process and result in furthe deaths... or you don't.

With that, I have work to do.  Goodnight.

[BatmanTurian]

Xilizhra wrote...

EDI was built with Reaper code. The Geth chose to upload Reaper code. Neither of those choices were made by Shepard. One was made by TIM, and the other by Legion. Unfortunate, but that is the truth. Sometimes doing the right thing is the hardest thing to do and throughout the series, everyone except the antagonists agreed that killing the Reapers was the right thing to do.

EDI and the Geth got caught in the crossfire and that's unfortunate, but the Geth made that choice and EDI already stated she would risk nonfunctionality to keep from being a slave of the Reapers and to protect Jeff.

That's nice. I still won't kill them. I won't wreck the quarians' future either.

That's just it. You won't be killing the Geth. Their programs still exist and they still exist to help the quarians. only the Reaper code has been removed. Geth cannot be physically destroyed, they are programs that can transmit from machine to machine as long as it can hold their memory.

EDI however, has a hardware base, but what she was on the moonbase before the Reaper code is still intact.

[Sauron001]

Were getting off topic: arguing destroy vs synthesis/control

[Heimdall]

D.Sharrah wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

byne wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Then how do you justify an IT theory that relies on destroy being the correct choice if Shepard has no idea she's indoctrinated?

Only a Shepard focused on her mission above all other distractions can resist indoctrination. If you let the inevitable losses of life hold you back, you will fail.

Reapers use genocide as a means to an end as well.  If you want to be like them, be my guest, just don't pretend it makes you superior.

And how isn't synthesis like the Reapers?  Or control for that matter?  We see examples of how the Reapers use both of these choices in game - and it doesn't end well for those that have that choice made for them.  Or do you find what the Reapers do to make frontline soldiers (like husks, marauders, etc.) - because that's synthesis....and control - would you want to suffer the same fate as Saren, TIM, Rana, etc... - struggle to do what you feel is right only to disover that you have turned on everything that you once stood for?

If anything, the only choice that does not use a method employed by the Reapers is refuse.  And with that choice (at least as of now) only dooms the current cycle.

So destroy is no better!  Glad we agree

[ZerebusPrime]

BatmanTurian wrote...

I have some beachfront property in the Himalayas you might be interested in.

Much later, the Mariner of Waterworld sits in a makeshift chair under the shade of a coconut tree growing on the slopes of Everest.  "Worth.  Every.  Penny."

[TheIdiocyWizard2.0]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Then go away.

Did a synthesis supporter just tell an IT supporter to go away....in the IT thread?

[BatmanTurian]

Lord Aesir wrote...

byne wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

They signed up for war. They are the collateral damage. You have a sentiment for machines that would find the same choice logical.

...And its still genocide

Just noting that breaking indoctrination seems to require you to embrace their methods.

Less so than in Control and Synthesis.

Destroy is only genocide in the sense that Control is slavery and Synthesis is forced molestation. If you want to just pick an offensive term and label choices you dont like that, then we might as well not even discuss it, since that kind of stuff wont get us anywhere.

Then go away.

Or if you'd prefer to stay, I'll only say that synthesis takes a concept of transcendance away from Reaper control and allows it to be implemented on Shepard's terms.  Control also takes a method that was previously doomed and allows it to be implemented on Shepard's terms.  You may argue that these things are not so.  That by doing these things we commit horrible crimes but I would argue that this is not so.  We could go back and forth for a time.

Destroy is much more unambiguous.  Either you kill a friend and an entire people of allies along with a great deal of modern technology that will greatly hinder the galactic recovery process and result in furthe deaths... or you don't.

With that, I have work to do.  Goodnight.

once again, the geth are PROGRAMS and practically identical. They can be backed up and may still exist in quarian suits or a backup server somewhere. They can't die unless every program is erased. if even one program still exists, they can reproduce by copying themselves and since High EMS Destroy only removes Reaper code, it means the Geth, though less intelligent and self aware, still exist.

[byne]

Lord Aesir wrote...

byne wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

They signed up for war. They are the collateral damage. You have a sentiment for machines that would find the same choice logical.

...And its still genocide

Just noting that breaking indoctrination seems to require you to embrace their methods.

Less so than in Control and Synthesis.

Destroy is only genocide in the sense that Control is slavery and Synthesis is forced molestation. If you want to just pick an offensive term and label choices you dont like that, then we might as well not even discuss it, since that kind of stuff wont get us anywhere.

Then go away.

Or if you'd prefer to stay, I'll only say that synthesis takes a concept of transcendance away from Reaper control and allows it to be implemented on Shepard's terms.  Control also takes a method that was previously doomed and allows it to be implemented on Shepard's terms.  You may argue that these things are not so.  That by doing these things we commit horrible crimes but I would argue that this is not so.  We could go back and forth for a time.

Destroy is much more unambiguous.  Either you kill a friend and an entire people of allies along with a great deal of modern technology that will greatly hinder the galactic recovery process and result in furthe deaths... or you don't.

With that, I have work to do.  Goodnight.

If the endings are literal, my Shep picks destroy because the Reapers do not deserve to continue to exist. No matter what, the galaxy must be rid of them. EDI and the Geth both stated they were willing to die to wipe the Reapers from existence. 

[BatmanTurian]

TheIdiocyWizard2.0 wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Then go away.

Did a synthesis supporter just tell an IT supporter to go away....in the IT thread?

I know, it's like bizarro world up in this b**ch

[Sauron001]

Lord Aesir wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

byne wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Then how do you justify an IT theory that relies on destroy being the correct choice if Shepard has no idea she's indoctrinated?

Only a Shepard focused on her mission above all other distractions can resist indoctrination. If you let the inevitable losses of life hold you back, you will fail.

Reapers use genocide as a means to an end as well.  If you want to be like them, be my guest, just don't pretend it makes you superior.

And how isn't synthesis like the Reapers?  Or control for that matter?  We see examples of how the Reapers use both of these choices in game - and it doesn't end well for those that have that choice made for them.  Or do you find what the Reapers do to make frontline soldiers (like husks, marauders, etc.) - because that's synthesis....and control - would you want to suffer the same fate as Saren, TIM, Rana, etc... - struggle to do what you feel is right only to disover that you have turned on everything that you once stood for?

If anything, the only choice that does not use a method employed by the Reapers is refuse.  And with that choice (at least as of now) only dooms the current cycle.

So destroy is no better!  Glad we agree

I still don't see how destroy is influenced by the reapers.