80611 réponses à ce sujet

[D.Sharrah]

Lord Aesir wrote...

D.Sharrah wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

byne wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Then how do you justify an IT theory that relies on destroy being the correct choice if Shepard has no idea she's indoctrinated?

Only a Shepard focused on her mission above all other distractions can resist indoctrination. If you let the inevitable losses of life hold you back, you will fail.

Reapers use genocide as a means to an end as well.  If you want to be like them, be my guest, just don't pretend it makes you superior.

And how isn't synthesis like the Reapers?  Or control for that matter?  We see examples of how the Reapers use both of these choices in game - and it doesn't end well for those that have that choice made for them.  Or do you find what the Reapers do to make frontline soldiers (like husks, marauders, etc.) - because that's synthesis....and control - would you want to suffer the same fate as Saren, TIM, Rana, etc... - struggle to do what you feel is right only to disover that you have turned on everything that you once stood for?

If anything, the only choice that does not use a method employed by the Reapers is refuse.  And with that choice (at least as of now) only dooms the current cycle.

So destroy is no better!  Glad we agree

It's only no better if you want to view things through your logic...which is what I put to question.  Which you entirely avoided I see...if you want to make an arguement that Destroy is "evil" or wrong or whatever you want to call it, because it's what the "Reapers would do" - you better be willing to explain how synthesis and control magically become non-Reaper aligned because Shep makes that choice.

[BatmanTurian]

ZerebusPrime wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

I have some beachfront property in the Himalayas you might be interested in.

Much later, the Mariner of Waterworld sits in a makeshift chair under the shade of a coconut tree growing on the slopes of Everest.  "Worth.  Every.  Penny."

lol

[Xilizhra]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EDI was built with Reaper code. The Geth chose to upload Reaper code. Neither of those choices were made by Shepard. One was made by TIM, and the other by Legion. Unfortunate, but that is the truth. Sometimes doing the right thing is the hardest thing to do and throughout the series, everyone except the antagonists agreed that killing the Reapers was the right thing to do.

EDI and the Geth got caught in the crossfire and that's unfortunate, but the Geth made that choice and EDI already stated she would risk nonfunctionality to keep from being a slave of the Reapers and to protect Jeff.

That's nice. I still won't kill them. I won't wreck the quarians' future either.

That's just it. You won't be killing the Geth. Their programs still exist and they still exist to help the quarians. only the Reaper code has been removed. Geth cannot be physically destroyed, they are programs that can transmit from machine to machine as long as it can hold their memory.

EDI however, has a hardware base, but what she was on the moonbase before the Reaper code is still intact.

The geth are completely annihilated. Only blank platforms remain, and every last trace of their code has been wiped from existence. Similar for EDI.

[BatmanTurian]

Xilizhra wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

EDI was built with Reaper code. The Geth chose to upload Reaper code. Neither of those choices were made by Shepard. One was made by TIM, and the other by Legion. Unfortunate, but that is the truth. Sometimes doing the right thing is the hardest thing to do and throughout the series, everyone except the antagonists agreed that killing the Reapers was the right thing to do.

EDI and the Geth got caught in the crossfire and that's unfortunate, but the Geth made that choice and EDI already stated she would risk nonfunctionality to keep from being a slave of the Reapers and to protect Jeff.

That's nice. I still won't kill them. I won't wreck the quarians' future either.

That's just it. You won't be killing the Geth. Their programs still exist and they still exist to help the quarians. only the Reaper code has been removed. Geth cannot be physically destroyed, they are programs that can transmit from machine to machine as long as it can hold their memory.

EDI however, has a hardware base, but what she was on the moonbase before the Reaper code is still intact.

The geth are completely annihilated. Only blank platforms remain, and every last trace of their code has been wiped from existence. Similar for EDI.

BS. The destroy beam only erases Reaper code, leaving the rest of the program's code intact.

[Xilizhra]

BS. The destroy beam only erases Reaper code, leaving the rest of the program's code intact.

You seem to have completely made this up. When is Reaper code mentioned?

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Ugh I get off of from work, open up my computer, check IT and guess what? We are under siege....

[MegumiAzusa]

So if nothing is up with the choices and all three are equally valid why is control and synthesis handled pretty much the same while destroy is a special case in most ways?
You have the mysterious gun thingy, while you toss it away in control/synthesis.
You have the soldier standing his ground in destroy, but being overwhelmed in control/synthesis.
You have Shepard able to survive destroy but not control/synthesis.

You also have a half destroyed Crucible wreaking havoc in destroy, as it should as there is no controlled release possible, but the same, with another reaper part doesn't affect organics at all.


These points alone are a reason to conclude something is up.

[Rankincountry]

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Then how do you justify an IT theory that relies on destroy being the correct choice if Shepard has no idea she's indoctrinated?

So far as I can tell, only genocidal Shepards have the moral fiber to break indoctrination.

the geth are programs, so is EDI. They have no real physical bodies and can be backed up (and were backed up).

They won't be the same but they can be rebuilt. It's not genocide because machines have no genes.

I'm pretty sure destroy extends beyond their physical platforms...

Geth were self-aware programs before the Reaper code. With the Reaper code removed, they are back to the regular Geth. So is EDI, she is no longer self-aware. Geth could always reproduce by copying programs. Legion was the only Geth that gained a higher self-awareness and that's because he had thousands of programs running inside his physical platform. Since the geth are programs, they can transmit themselves to new platforms.

So as far as Genocide, the only real " person " that died was EDI. The geth are back to being the original geth without the Reaper code. I don't think you people thought this stuff through at all.

...That definitely isn't what the game tells us Destroy does.  In fact I'm fairly certain the utter destruction of the geth was mentioned rather explicitly.

Incorrect. Much like the explanations for Control and Synthesis, there's a lot of double-talk and contradiction. The catalyst never mentions the Geth or even EDI by name. He says "But be warned. Others will be destroyed as well. The crucible does not discriminate. All synthetics will be targeted". Note that he says "targeted", not destroyed. He makes a veiled threat against Shepard - "Even you are partially synthetic" - yet we know that given enough EMS, Shepard survives. He then says "The effects of the blast will not be confined to the reapers. Technology you rely on will be affected". The next line depends on EMS, but if high enough, "Those who survive will have little difficulty repairing the damage".

Then he says something really peculiar and contradictory. "There will be losses. But no more than what has already been lost".

The EC ending slides make no reference one way or another to the Geth - this is odd in itself, since if they were annihilated in the cause of defeating the reapers, you'd have thought Hackett would mention them in his closing speech. EDI does appear on the Normandy memorial wall of course.

The catalyst does a fantastic job of not answering Shepard's questions, ducking, diving, saying things that are on the surface profound, but which don't stand up to scrutiny. A lot like a politician really. That's why I'm deeply suspicious of the catalyst, and why I think the little git is up to something. He's messing with Shepard's head. taking advantage of his exhausted state and (presumably) impaired judgement. And why would a reaper do that? I can only think of one reason that fits within ME lore, and that's an indoctrination attempt.

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Xilizhra wrote...

BS. The destroy beam only erases Reaper code, leaving the rest of the program's code intact.

You seem to have completely made this up. When is Reaper code mentioned?

Lol Catalyst or Twiiter, both are pretty much the same

[D.Sharrah]

Xilizhra wrote...

snip...

The geth are completely annihilated. Only blank platforms remain, and every last trace of their code has been wiped from existence. Similar for EDI.

Can you show me the in game or out of game evidence that you have to support this statement?  I don't recall seeing or hearing this anywhere...if anything, I thought it was left intentionally vague - as to fuel the "speculations for everyone".  If that is what you are head-cannoning, fine...but it doesn't make it true for everyone.

And besides that...given the choice - by Geth and EDI flat out tell Shep that they would rather die than not see the Reapers destroyed.  Who are you to tell them that there choice doesn't matter?  I personally don't believe that ReaperBieber was being honest - and even if he was I would choose to respect the wishes of my comrades.

[Arashi08]

So...a hyopthetical question here.

Let's say, for the sae of argument and not based on existential debate, that every living thing, synthetc and organic, has a sort of "soul's purpose" a reason that the are here, living in this reality. And I don't mean like how the geth were created to work or anything like that, but i mean an expression of that fom of life's uniqueness.

The endings essentially force you to take away the soul's puropse of some or all life forms because you have to make this choice. if you choose destroy, the genocide you are inflicting on the Geth and EDI likely means they can't fulfill their soul's purpose, but they only died, every living thing dies, even synthetics. EDI even points out the inevitability of her own death, and some of the Geth programs housed in the Dyson Sphere did die when the Quarians bombarded it.

From an IT perspective, Control and Synthesis are enslavement and essentially an argument for eugenics, forced molestation as some people refer to it, not to mention we see the nanides latch onto neurotransmitters, which doesn't seem good to me either. But to the point, this method also takes away from the purpose of these living things, but it essentially let's them live their lives under the domination of another. The idea of creating peace and fulfilling one's messiah complex might be comforting, but I don't think people who think that way see the bigger picture. chaos and order must exist in tandem, something the Reapers don't understand, because their logic is flawed and still in its infancy despite their age imo. the idea of eternal peace sounds great in theory but Mordin did share a little piece of information with us once: "No limitations, no advancement. No advancement, culture stagnates."

Control and Synthesis, to me, represent this very stagnation. perhaps there is no "pinnacle" of evolution, but even if there is, Control and synthesis are not it in my opinion. yes, organics and synthetics live, but it is stagnant life, a living death. People fear death because it is unknown to them but imo death is prefferable to living a life of stagnation, even if it is comfortable. That's why I will always choose destroy, even if IT is proven false. all the endings have extremely negative consequences as far as I'm concerned, but at least I will only deny the expression of a portion of life rather than ALL of it. but again, that's just how I feel.





And now for a riddle (sort of) for everyone.

What is the greatest lie ever told?

[BatmanTurian]

Xilizhra wrote...

BS. The destroy beam only erases Reaper code, leaving the rest of the program's code intact.

You seem to have completely made this up. When is Reaper code mentioned?

EDI says Reaper Code was used by TIM to make her more self-aware since she was a program that became somewhat self-aware on the moon-base in ME1

Legion uploads Reaper code to all the Geth in the Rannoch mission.

Without the code, they just become the programs they once were, a shadow of their former selves but rebuildable and their self-aware code can be rebuilt as well with time without the shortcut of Reaper code to replace what should have been earned by effort on the part of the geth, quarians, and humanity.

[Xilizhra]

Can you show me the in game or out of game evidence that you have to support this statement? I don't recall seeing or hearing this anywhere...if anything, I thought it was left intentionally vague - as to fuel the "speculations for everyone". If that is what you are head-cannoning, fine...but it doesn't make it true for everyone.

EDI's memorial wall death and the elimination of the geth from the ending slides as direct evidence.

The EC ending slides make no reference one way or another to the Geth -
this is odd in itself, since if they were annihilated in the cause of
defeating the reapers, you'd have thought Hackett would mention them in
his closing speech. EDI does appear on the Normandy memorial wall of
course.

This is because the geth may have already been wiped out on Rannoch.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 07 octobre 2012 - 11:38 .

[MegumiAzusa]

Xilizhra wrote...

Can you show me the in game or out of game evidence that you have to support this statement? I don't recall seeing or hearing this anywhere...if anything, I thought it was left intentionally vague - as to fuel the "speculations for everyone". If that is what you are head-cannoning, fine...but it doesn't make it true for everyone.

EDI's memorial wall death and the elimination of the geth from the ending slides as direct evidence.

Ah yes, the memorial wall, right before Shep wakes up you mean?

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Hey I just had a thought?

We all know the Catalyst tells us that Shep will be destroyed upon choosing destroy, "Even you are partially synthetic"

And that is what happens with low-EMS destroy.

But since Shepard obviously survives in high-EMS destroy, can we assume that we beat the Catalyst? Our Crucible was BAMF enough to directly target Reapers. Allowing Shepard, the Geth, EDI, and all critical onboard ship technology to survive?

Ah this sounds more like head canon know that I write it out :/

[BatmanTurian]

Xilizhra wrote...

Can you show me the in game or out of game evidence that you have to support this statement? I don't recall seeing or hearing this anywhere...if anything, I thought it was left intentionally vague - as to fuel the "speculations for everyone". If that is what you are head-cannoning, fine...but it doesn't make it true for everyone.

EDI's memorial wall death and the elimination of the geth from the ending slides as direct evidence.

The EC ending slides make no reference one way or another to the Geth -
this is odd in itself, since if they were annihilated in the cause of
defeating the reapers, you'd have thought Hackett would mention them in
his closing speech. EDI does appear on the Normandy memorial wall of
course.

This is because the geth may have already been wiped out on Rannoch.

They'd be mourning the " person" of EDI being dead but the Normandy still runs fine, showing some of her base programs survived and help run the Normandy. As for the geth, they are niether mentioned nor shown. But that's because they're programs and they don't need a physical body to exist.

Again, you're not thinking this through, equating synthetics with organics. They're completely different animals.

[masster blaster]

Xilizhra wrote...

Can you show me the in game or out of game evidence that you have to support this statement? I don't recall seeing or hearing this anywhere...if anything, I thought it was left intentionally vague - as to fuel the "speculations for everyone". If that is what you are head-cannoning, fine...but it doesn't make it true for everyone.

EDI's memorial wall death and the elimination of the geth from the ending slides as direct evidence.

The EC ending slides make no reference one way or another to the Geth -
this is odd in itself, since if they were annihilated in the cause of
defeating the reapers, you'd have thought Hackett would mention them in
his closing speech. EDI does appear on the Normandy memorial wall of
course.

This is because the geth may have already been wiped out on Rannoch.

Thus why is Anderson on the wall, if they already know that he is dead, and not Shepard, unless you picked Control, and Synthesis.

[MegumiAzusa]

NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...

Hey I just had a thought?

We all know the Catalyst tells us that Shep will be destroyed upon choosing destroy, "Even you are partially synthetic"

And that is what happens with low-EMS destroy.

But since Shepard obviously survives in high-EMS destroy, can we assume that we beat the Catalyst? Our Crucible was BAMF enough to directly target Reapers. Allowing Shepard, the Geth, EDI, and all critical onboard ship technology to survive?

Ah this sounds more like head canon know that I write it out :/

Actually it's exactly that, it's even basically mentioned if you compare it to low ems (just booted ME up to record it because I can't find it on YT with the EC)

[Xilizhra]

Ah yes, the memorial wall, right before Shep wakes up you mean?

If Shepard was indoctrinated, than Destroy didn't actually do anything and the preceding scene is wholly irrelevant. In fact, I have no idea why you're arguing Destroy not killing everyone when you don't believe that any of the choices are real to begin with.

[BatmanTurian]

Xilizhra wrote...

Can you show me the in game or out of game evidence that you have to support this statement? I don't recall seeing or hearing this anywhere...if anything, I thought it was left intentionally vague - as to fuel the "speculations for everyone". If that is what you are head-cannoning, fine...but it doesn't make it true for everyone.

EDI's memorial wall death and the elimination of the geth from the ending slides as direct evidence.

The EC ending slides make no reference one way or another to the Geth -
this is odd in itself, since if they were annihilated in the cause of
defeating the reapers, you'd have thought Hackett would mention them in
his closing speech. EDI does appear on the Normandy memorial wall of
course.

This is because the geth may have already been wiped out on Rannoch.

in some games maybe. The geth still exist as programs in quarian suits if a peace is brokered.

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Arashi08 wrote...


And now for a riddle (sort of) for everyone.

What is the greatest lie ever told?

Sorry I know that other stuff was important but this got my attention..

pie?
You are unique?
Jurassic Park 4?
42!?

[Xilizhra]

in some games maybe. The geth still exist as programs in quarian suits if a peace is brokered.

No they don't. You base this on nothing whatsoever. And you don't believe that any of it happened literally anyway, so... why bother?

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ah yes, the memorial wall, right before Shep wakes up you mean?

If Shepard was indoctrinated, than Destroy didn't actually do anything and the preceding scene is wholly irrelevant. In fact, I have no idea why you're arguing Destroy not killing everyone when you don't believe that any of the choices are real to begin with.

The scenes afterward are Shepard imaging the future past the choice he made, right, guys?

Xilizhra stop avoiding questions. Your counter-arguements are getting poorer and poorer. 

Modifié par NebuchadnezzaRT, 07 octobre 2012 - 11:44 .

[masster blaster]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ah yes, the memorial wall, right before Shep wakes up you mean?

If Shepard was indoctrinated, than Destroy didn't actually do anything and the preceding scene is wholly irrelevant. In fact, I have no idea why you're arguing Destroy not killing everyone when you don't believe that any of the choices are real to begin with.

. If he was, then we wouldn't have Control over Shepard, thus we help Shepard at teh end, either kill the Reapers, give up, or become Indoctrinated. Also I like the eyes you get in Control, and Synthesis.

Modifié par masster blaster, 07 octobre 2012 - 11:45 .

[ThisOneIsPunny]

Xilizhra wrote...

The EC ending slides make no reference one way or another to the Geth -
this is odd in itself, since if they were annihilated in the cause of
defeating the reapers, you'd have thought Hackett would mention them in
his closing speech. EDI does appear on the Normandy memorial wall of
course.

This is because the geth may have already been wiped out on Rannoch.

So they had enough time to make slides showing the geth in cities, the quarian in cities, the quarian and geth rebuilding together, but none whatsoever to show the geth destroyed in the destroy ending? Also they didn't do this because of one choice in the game?

Do you need a chair? That straw looks little out of reach.

Edit: There were also differeing speeches for ControlShep based on moral alignment. Are you saying they put MORE thought into that than something as trivial as showing some slumped over geth taken out by Destroy?

Modifié par ThisOneIsPunny, 07 octobre 2012 - 11:46 .