Ce sujet est ferméPsiMatrix wrote...
D.Sharrah wrote...
Or its both!Which is actually closer to what I beleive...but things usually go better when you give people a choice.
I am glad that someone did...
Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!
Débuté par
byne
, juil. 30 2012 07:09
#31401
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 12:36
D.Sharrah
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I am glad that someone did...
Retour en haut
#31402
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 12:43
masster blaster
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Cyberfrog81 wrote...
I've opened the "IT thread" weekly, in periods daily. But then I always saw someone being unreasonable and gave up on you guys. For a day or two or five.masster blaster wrote...
I don't mean that, but I have always tried to call everyone down, but no more. Also they are not, have you even been here for the last 6months.Sorry, but when I see people being labled idiots or worse for disagreeing with the IT interpretation... that does suck. And it makes you a crowd I don't want to be a part of.No you haven't, have you read EVERYThing we have found/ comed up with. No, or maybe you have. Do we have the right to be a little tense yes, are our attitudes suck, no. So stick around and wait for a bit. Your view will chnage.
i have been saying calling people idiots is uncalled for, and that is why we created, well restrider created the top ten IT back bones.
#31404
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 12:46
Dwailing
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masster blaster wrote...
Cyberfrog81 wrote...
I've opened the "IT thread" weekly, in periods daily. But then I always saw someone being unreasonable and gave up on you guys. For a day or two or five.masster blaster wrote...
I don't mean that, but I have always tried to call everyone down, but no more. Also they are not, have you even been here for the last 6months.Sorry, but when I see people being labled idiots or worse for disagreeing with the IT interpretation... that does suck. And it makes you a crowd I don't want to be a part of.No you haven't, have you read EVERYThing we have found/ comed up with. No, or maybe you have. Do we have the right to be a little tense yes, are our attitudes suck, no. So stick around and wait for a bit. Your view will chnage.
i have been saying calling people idiots is uncalled for, and that is why we created, well restrider created the top ten IT back bones.
Calling people idiots is not uncalled for if they are behaving like idiots. I don't usually call people idiots, but I won't feel bad about someone being an idiot being called an idiot.
#31405
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 12:46
spotlessvoid
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" Sorry, but when I see people being labled idiots or worse for disagreeing with the IT interpretation... that does suck. And it makes you a crowd I don't want to be apart of."
What do you know? The people that got called out were called out for calling us idiots..So we can't call out people who have posted insults, but when you do it then it's okay? Lol okay
What do you know? The people that got called out were called out for calling us idiots..So we can't call out people who have posted insults, but when you do it then it's okay? Lol okay
Modifié par spotlessvoid, 08 octobre 2012 - 12:47 .
#31406
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 12:48
Hrothdane
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Rudeness is never called for. It is at best understandable, but wrong.
#31407
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 12:49
NebuchadnezzaRT
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Just ignore them spot and MB
#31408
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 12:49
D.Sharrah
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Pardon me, while I take a dip into the deep end of the crazy pool to play with my friend semantics...
One of the big outcry over the "endings" has been the pre-release statements regarding that there would not be any A-B-C choices to end the game; then the game launches and despite these statements every thing comes down to an A-B-C choice, right?
But what if what we see at the "end" of the game isn't the end? If Bioware does decide to release "ending" content, bridiging content, ME 3 part B (what ever you want to call it)...and that content brings the real "end" w/in context of all of the choices that you have made...would the game be epic - or the greatest troll ever?
I am inclined to believe that there is only one statement that we should really believe and take any credence from; and that was Gamble's tweet, "Hardest. Day. Ever. If you only knew what we were planning, you would keep your ME 3 saves forever." I just don't see any way that a literal interpertation of the game, would have anyone thinking that these words mean anything...and as I said, I think that they are the only words that we should really trust.
Edit: I hope that this post didn't kill the thread.
One of the big outcry over the "endings" has been the pre-release statements regarding that there would not be any A-B-C choices to end the game; then the game launches and despite these statements every thing comes down to an A-B-C choice, right?
But what if what we see at the "end" of the game isn't the end? If Bioware does decide to release "ending" content, bridiging content, ME 3 part B (what ever you want to call it)...and that content brings the real "end" w/in context of all of the choices that you have made...would the game be epic - or the greatest troll ever?
I am inclined to believe that there is only one statement that we should really believe and take any credence from; and that was Gamble's tweet, "Hardest. Day. Ever. If you only knew what we were planning, you would keep your ME 3 saves forever." I just don't see any way that a literal interpertation of the game, would have anyone thinking that these words mean anything...and as I said, I think that they are the only words that we should really trust.
Edit: I hope that this post didn't kill the thread.
Modifié par D.Sharrah, 08 octobre 2012 - 12:53 .
#31409
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 12:53
D.Sharrah
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Hrothdane wrote...
Rudeness is never called for. It is at best understandable, but wrong.
+1. Even more true when you have kids and you are trying to teach them right from wrong.
#31410
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 12:55
Guest_SwobyJ_*
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Dwailing wrote...
SwobyJ wrote...
It's all an effing dream anyway.
Reading the game's dialogue script, it is now clear to me that Bioware all but bashes our heads over with this idea.
Not a dream. Indoctrination hallucination. Please don't confuse the two. A dream implies that your decisions don't matter. They do matter. Ergo, it is not a dream.
(To me:)
Technically, its both.
Hallucinations themselves starting since Vanvouver, but maybe maybe earlier.
Indoctrination since Arrival (in any big way, but possibly in smaller ways earlier), but Shepard is innately resistant.
I am of the opinion that this is all a mix of:
-DIRECT CONTROL by Harbinger (hinted at more clearly by the Leviathan DLC)
-Indoctrination (but again, Shepard is heavily resistant, with maybe the strongest will in the known galaxy haha)
-A form of hacking of the Cerberus implants, enabling a better use by the Reapers of the above listed two methods (especially Direct Control)
Symbolically, yes, its a dream. Shepard is unconscious in rubble. Shep/TIM/Anderson is the battle of the mind, and Catalyst is the battle of the upper ordered thinking of it, after Shepard succeeds (in some fashion) against the indoctrination itself (represented by 'TIM').
Shepard is an anomaly because he is the next evolution of organic life, one that moves highly against the Cycle set up by Harbinger (who I think is the 'Intelligence'/'False 'Catalyst').
The Leviathans are hinted at being the entities that started the Galaxy in being able to fight their former creations, but:
a)Leviathans also find use in the Cycle. I don't think they're ticked off that the Cycle continues, because I..well they outright STATE they still want to Control the Reapers, not destroy them. They want Reaper slaves, and therefore probably want just Harbinger killed.
b)They are very patient. I strongly believe that they influenced cycles over time, eventually coming to the Prothian cycle, which was the closest to cracking the Reaper code as any other cycle (imo). Their orbs watch all cycles, and influence their development through proxy enthralled agents.
Humanity is an anomaly, but an observed one. Just as Shepard is an anomaly, but an observed and already known one.
The larger fight is between the Leviathans and Harbinger, both using similar but differerent methods. What Shepard even IS, is a possible result of many millenia of work done by the Prothians, but much moreso, the Leviathans themselves.
Much of Mass Effect is a sci-fi Christian symbolism inflused story, except the symbols are
Sovereign (focused on Synthesis (because it is Controlled by Harbinger), leading to Control over the cycle) --> Saren
Harbinger (focused on Control, leading to Synthesis, aka more Reaper chow) --> Illusive Man
Leviathan --> Shepard
Except Destroy/Leviathan is MUCH more of a wildcard. No one is being Controlled, and no one is being changed into another being. It's just war and domination in itself. Our choices, Paragon or Renegade, through ME1-ME3, change the tune of this Destroy (kill all Reapers) method. More Renegade? You'll tend towards approaching Control, so be careful. More Paragon? You'll tend toward Control or Synthesis, and be more willing to sacrifice all as a supposed Messiah.
(But you're not, you're 'just human'. Remember this, as you face the Catalyst... because YOU are the true Catalyst)
That's all the thoughts in my head right now
But yeah, its a dream in the end, imo, but that doesn't change its importance. The Catalyst is the final boss, not the 'guide for Shepard'.
#31411
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 12:55
spotlessvoid
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D.Sharrah wrote...
Pardon me, while I take a dip into the deep end of the crazy pool to play with my friend semantics...
One of the big outcry over the "endings" has been the pre-release statements regarding that there would not be any A-B-C choices to end the game; then the game launches and despite these statements every thing comes down to an A-B-C choice, right?
But what if what we see at the "end" of the game isn't the end? If Bioware does decide to release "ending" content, bridiging content, ME 3 part B (what ever you want to call it)...and that content brings the real "end" w/in context of all of the choices that you have made...would the game be epic - or the greatest troll ever?
I am inclined to believe that there is only one statement that we should really believe and take any credence from; and that was Gamble's tweet, "Hardest. Day. Ever. If you only knew what we were planning, you would keep your ME 3 saves forever." I just don't see any way that a literal interpertation of the game, would have anyone thinking that these words mean anything...and as I said, I think that they are the only words that we should really trust.
Edit: I hope that this post didn't kill the thread.
QFT
#31412
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 12:55
D.Sharrah
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NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...
Just ignore them spot and MB
And don't lower yourself by stooping to their level.
#31413
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 12:58
NebuchadnezzaRT
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Ah, have I done that? I probably haveD.Sharrah wrote...
NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...
Just ignore them spot and MB
And don't lower yourself by stooping to their level.
I know I played catch with Xili-whatever but not much more than that?
Modifié par NebuchadnezzaRT, 08 octobre 2012 - 01:00 .
#31414
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 12:59
D.Sharrah
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spotlessvoid wrote...
D.Sharrah wrote...
Pardon me, while I take a dip into the deep end of the crazy pool to play with my friend semantics...
One of the big outcry over the "endings" has been the pre-release statements regarding that there would not be any A-B-C choices to end the game; then the game launches and despite these statements every thing comes down to an A-B-C choice, right?
But what if what we see at the "end" of the game isn't the end? If Bioware does decide to release "ending" content, bridiging content, ME 3 part B (what ever you want to call it)...and that content brings the real "end" w/in context of all of the choices that you have made...would the game be epic - or the greatest troll ever?
I am inclined to believe that there is only one statement that we should really believe and take any credence from; and that was Gamble's tweet, "Hardest. Day. Ever. If you only knew what we were planning, you would keep your ME 3 saves forever." I just don't see any way that a literal interpertation of the game, would have anyone thinking that these words mean anything...and as I said, I think that they are the only words that we should really trust.
Edit: I hope that this post didn't kill the thread.
QFT
Glad that at least one person was able to follow my incoherent ramblings...gotta take a break for now...I'l either be back in a little or jump into MP to help out with the OP...until the next time.
#31415
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 01:00
NebuchadnezzaRT
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Ha, obviously he was telling the truth because we got a:D.Sharrah wrote...
Pardon me, while I take a dip into the deep end of the crazy pool to play with my friend semantics...
One of the big outcry over the "endings" has been the pre-release statements regarding that there would not be any A-B-C choices to end the game; then the game launches and despite these statements every thing comes down to an A-B-C choice, right?
.
C-S-D
^R^
ending
#31416
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 01:03
Guest_SwobyJ_*
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Rankincountry wrote...
Dwailing wrote...
SwobyJ wrote...
It's all an effing dream anyway.
Reading the game's dialogue script, it is now clear to me that Bioware all but bashes our heads over with this idea.
Not a dream. Indoctrination hallucination. Please don't confuse the two. A dream implies that your decisions don't matter. They do matter. Ergo, it is not a dream.
The interesting question is, assuming we get ME4 or post breath DLC/expansion, exactly how it will play out. I do agree about the level of foreshadowing. Leviathan being the biggest bash over the head of all.
Two main ways, imo.
1)Shepard only wakes on Destroy, and you continue down one of two other paths. Control and Synthesis are forms of Game Over, just as making certain other decisions in ME2 resulted in Shepard's Death.
a)ME4 (or whatever) you play as Shepard
b)ME4 you play as someone else (or multiple characters), as the focus moves further away from Shepard, and more on the consequences of your decisions
2)All three endings give different flavors of story in a ME4 or expansion, with Synthesis being the most heart-wrenching, because you know just what is going on, but Shepard doesn't. Somehow, Shepard survives all 3 endings, but the highEMSDestroy ending had the Breath scene as more of an Easter Egg (just like the Starchild is). Only Game Over is Refuse, as that is Shepard just giving up entirely.
Remember that regardless of the 3 choices made, ALL 3 are ENDINGS OF HOPE. They all have a dark tinge to them, a 'this isn't right' feeling (at least to ITers), but they STILL have the tone of Shepard wanting to believe the best for the Galaxy, and that his sacrifice was not in vain. Yes, even in the original endings with the relays blowing up etc. In a sense, EC is just a 'better Illusion', while simultaniously keeping and even emphasising the really weird IT parts of the ending as well. (Why is Harbinger holding back? What's with the 'pulse' when you land on Citadel? etc etc etc)
a)ME4 you play as Shepard, but story again moves away from Shepard himself (as ME3 and even some ME2 could be said to be all about Shepard's Indoctrination story), and more onto the fight of the galaxy itself (yay expanded multiplayer development
)b)New main character, Shepard may or may not play a prominent role in things, and Mass Effect expands into story concepts greater than the Milky Way itself.
#31417
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 01:04
Guest_SwobyJ_*
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cavs25 wrote...
Completely off topic but doesn't anyone else find it weird that Mac Walters and Casey Hudson
haven't been seen since the whole ending controversy? There were fans that went overboard with the threats and stuff but most people have gotten over it by now. I checked their twitters and the last tweet from hudson was on March 17 and Walters was May 5th. Did this guys just give up on promoting since the game has been out for a long time now, or are they hiding from the fans who are still angry? (Most likely) Or are they working and future stuff right now?
Just wanted to get your opinion since it looks like there is still hope on IT DLC.
Well they're still employed in their positions.
That says a lot, considering what is happening on the Old Republic and greater Bioware corporate side of things.
#31418
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 01:04
Arashi08
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well people got tired of guessing, or just didn't care, quicker than i thought lol.
Regardless, I wanted to tell you the answer anyway since I feel it may be relevant to the topic, as well as the ridiculous "wars" we have going on over who is right and who isn't.
The greatest and most destructive lie ever told is:
We are separate.
I will elaborate on this but I want to hear other people's input first, If they are interested that is lol.
Regardless, I wanted to tell you the answer anyway since I feel it may be relevant to the topic, as well as the ridiculous "wars" we have going on over who is right and who isn't.
The greatest and most destructive lie ever told is:
We are separate.
I will elaborate on this but I want to hear other people's input first, If they are interested that is lol.
Modifié par Arashi08, 08 octobre 2012 - 01:08 .
#31419
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 01:05
CmdrShep80
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Lol wow the last few pages were like a real life Mass Effect. Shepard trying to tell a bunch of people why they may be indoctrinated then watching anyways as the go off and jump into the pit anyways.
#31420
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 01:08
NebuchadnezzaRT
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Ahhh. Good brain teaser. And I believe I see what you are getting at.Arashi08 wrote...
well people got tired of guessing, or just didn't care, quicker than i thought lol.
anyway I wanted to tell you the answer anyway since I feel it may be relevant to the topic, as well as the ridiculous "wars" we have going on over who is right and who isn't.
The greatest and most destructive lie ever told is:
We are separate.
I will elaborate on this but I want to hear other people's input first, If they are interested that is lol.
#31421
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 01:09
Guest_SwobyJ_*
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Dwailing wrote...
Rankincountry wrote...
Dwailing wrote...
SwobyJ wrote...
It's all an effing dream anyway.
Reading the game's dialogue script, it is now clear to me that Bioware all but bashes our heads over with this idea.
Not a dream. Indoctrination hallucination. Please don't confuse the two. A dream implies that your decisions don't matter. They do matter. Ergo, it is not a dream.
The interesting question is, assuming we get ME4 or post breath DLC/expansion, exactly how it will play out. I do agree about the level of foreshadowing. Leviathan being the biggest bash over the head of all.
I still say that BioWare actually CONFIRMED that the ending is, if nothing else, Leviathan enthrallment being performed by Harbinger. Chris Priestly said that parts of the ending are made from Shepard's memories. Then, they release Leviathan, and Leviathan says these words, "You're memories give shape to our words. (I believe that's the quote)" Coincidence? I doubt it.
Oh yes, I just think that we don't NEED Leviathan to be aware of this.
We know Harbinger assumes direct control. We have hints at 'overlays of reality' throughout ME2-ME3. We know, if we look at optional parts of the games, and especially in non-game media what indoctrination does and what Harbinger's powers may consist of.
IT started when Arrival came out, for the most part. People were already 'speculating' whether Shepard would be impacted by being around a Reaper artifact for days. Days.
And even when ME3's demo was out, I remember MANY people concerned about the child, already put off by his appearance and behaviour, as well as Shepard's reaction to him.
So Bioware can safely use the argument that no player NEEDS any SP DLC, even a big 'reveal' one. Why?
Because the ending is NOT being changed. We'll still have Destroy, Synthesis, Control, in the end, and EC may still be all we get for and extended versions.
But with DLC, ITers may find themselves very vindicated in their ideas about the story, over time. By March-April, Bioware may do all but explicitly state that another game is coming, and will truly end the Reaper War just as it was always supposed to:
"At ramming speed" - Emily Wong
#31422
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 01:11
NebuchadnezzaRT
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Leviathan was a bone/nod to us and a slap in the face to everyone else... Love your EW quote at the end 
Modifié par NebuchadnezzaRT, 08 octobre 2012 - 01:11 .
#31423
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 01:11
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ZerebusPrime wrote...
ZerebusPrime wrote...
End of the first matrix...
The first matrix failed because there was no "choice" allowed, IIRC. So the machines added the illusion of choice.
EDIT: And underlying the illusion was a real choice: to accept the Matrix or to rebel against the machines' solution..
Pardon my continued rambling. Please bear with me for a moment.
The trouble with the first matrix is that there was no choice involved. It forced compliance and people kept trying to wake up from it.
So then the machines make the second matrix and add in the illusion of choice to bring the masses under control.
I think we can draw a tenuous parallel with the end of the first matrix and the confrontation with the Illusive Man (the Reapers attempt to control our actions and we ultimately reject it) and the onset of the second matrix and the decision chamber.
Huh. I don't know why I felt compelled to post this, but it seems like a plausible explanation for the Final Hours tidbit about the end of the first matrix.
I'm very glad I checked in today, and I got to read this Matrix stuff.
I still had it in my head that 'First Matrix' meant the first matrix movie.
Perhaps..not.
The first matrix made by the machine was flawed. Over the 'cycles' they needed to refine the process, stomp out potential resistance.
This kind of puts ammo in the 'Harbinger wants Shepard in order to completely perfect the Reaping cycle and indoctrination methods' idea.
#31424
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 01:12
plfranke
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The Literalists are getting desparate. Harbinger has them scared.
Lol to anyone who knows where the Harbinger has them scared line is from, did that bother anyone else in the game?
Lol to anyone who knows where the Harbinger has them scared line is from, did that bother anyone else in the game?
#31425
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 08 octobre 2012 - 01:13
Guest_SwobyJ_*
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IsaacShep wrote...
Idiot fans were sending them vulgar insults on twitter for MONTHS after the game released. HTL forums still insult them on a daily basis and they're proud of doing it and get all confused when they're questioned on it.cavs25 wrote...
Completely off topic but doesn't anyone else find it weird that Mac Walters and Casey Hudson
haven't been seen since the whole ending controversy? There were fans that went overboard with the threats and stuff but most people have gotten over it by now. I checked their twitters and the last tweet from hudson was on March 17 and Walters was May 5th. Did this guys just give up on promoting since the game has been out for a long time now, or are they hiding from the fans who are still angry? (Most likely) Or are they working and future stuff right now?
Just wanted to get your opinion since it looks like there is still hope on IT DLC.
Are you surprised they disappeared? I'm glad they did, they didn't deserve experiencing how idiotic and immature somw fans are. But in any case, Mac Walters will be at NYCC this week and Edmonton Comic & Extertainment Expo later this month.
I think their superiors really do still have faith in Hudson and Walters and everything was already spelled out to them, months and months ago.
Heavy risk...but the prizzzzeeee.
