80611 réponses à ce sujet

[TheWill]

from the way they descibed the "game mechanic" where the player looses control of shepard and falls under reaper control.. i can only imagine it would have seemed more like a cutscene... with no interaction by the player... thats why they brought in the long walk... this way we at least have some control.. or at least it givies us the illusion of control... if shep simply succumbed to it and we had no interaction.. it would have been way too obvious to us all... and would have broken the effects that were meant to be implied by it...

you know... i just love the fact that it takes conspiracy theorists to look at something logically.. you would really think it would be the other way around right..?

[Cyberfrog81]

I'd suggest not implying that ITers are conspiracy theorists.

Conspiracy theorists distrust authority more than anything else (e.g. they could have extremely different views on the topic of aliens, but still get along great because they "know" there's a massive cover-up going on). IT's faith in BioWare's brilliance is probably enough to disqualify IT as a "conspiracy theory".

Things like claiming that IT is what BioWare intended and when they don't officially reveal it, it's all because of those pesky, loud Control/Synthesis folks... that's closer to a conspiracy theory.

[Restrider]

Keep the poll running!
On another note:
I think Refuse should be handled better. To me, Refuse should stand out, since it means that you do not compromise with the options the Reapers/Brat offers you. Sadly, the result of Refuse, as it is shown now, is not worth the effort.

[paxxton]

My reaction to MP's quality during Operation Overdrive.
http://www.youtube.c...Alq2Qn3Q#t=376s

EDIT: Listen to what the VI says about the Thorian and consider how similar it is to Leviathan. He describes the colonists as thralls and states that the Thorian views them as tools. I tell you there's a connection.

Modifié par paxxton, 08 octobre 2012 - 12:12 .

[36812180234]

Restrider wrote...


List of meta-reasons :

   1) IT is as valid as a literal interpretation
   2) new game in the MEU :
   - prequel with humans would only have the First Contact War as topic
   - prequel without humans would alienate a big part of the fanbase
   - prequel in a previous cycle is like a whole new universe
   - any prequel would have an already known ending
   - a game during the events of ME1-ME3 would not be able to have any choices with impact
   - Control has no real conflict potential, since we have Shreaper/Harpard
   - Synthesis has no real conflict potential, since everything is nice and dandy
   - Refuse has no real potential
   - this only leaves Destroy as possible candidate as canon 
   3) Mike Gamble's tweet

Edit: BSN formating is cruel.                                                                                                                                                           

Actually, from the developer’s standpoint you do not need even these three options. Shepard may be recovered unconscious on the battlefield and may wake up at the hospital. Then it could be declared that the last Citadel episode was a dream / illusion. And the choices made during the dream not necessarily have to make any difference on the further gameplay. Or developers could recognize the IT and award some bonus for the right choices (destroy / refuse) without penalties for other choices.
By the way, the probability exists that after couple more of DLC there will not be a lot of firm believers of control / synthesis. It is so easy to find one more protean (or at least a record of such) which will evidence that they tried to do exactly the same (control / synthesis) and in the end were just effectively f****d by the Reapers.
The Bioware does not have to change the ending – it is just an interpretation that matters 

[paxxton]

Restrider wrote...

Keep the poll running!
On another note:
I think Refuse should be handled better. To me, Refuse should stand out, since it means that you do not compromise with the options the Reapers/Brat offers you. Sadly, the result of Refuse, as it is shown now, is not worth the effort.

It does stand out. Shepard dooms the Galaxy because he's too proud to "compromise the soul of our species". Whatever that means.

Modifié par paxxton, 08 octobre 2012 - 12:15 .

[36812180234]

paxxton wrote...

Restrider wrote...

Keep the poll running!
On another note:
I think Refuse should be handled better. To me, Refuse should stand out, since it means that you do not compromise with the options the Reapers/Brat offers you. Sadly, the result of Refuse, as it is shown now, is not worth the effort.

It does stand out. Shepard dooms the Galaxy because he's too proud to "compromise the soul of our species". Whatever that means.

Actually yes – this option is simply redundant, since he/she was already given an option to destroy.

[paxxton]

36812180234 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Restrider wrote...

Keep the poll running!
On another note:
I think Refuse should be handled better. To me, Refuse should stand out, since it means that you do not compromise with the options the Reapers/Brat offers you. Sadly, the result of Refuse, as it is shown now, is not worth the effort.

It does stand out. Shepard dooms the Galaxy because he's too proud to "compromise the soul of our species". Whatever that means.

Actually yes – this option is simply redundant, since he/she was already given an option to destroy.

Sorry, I don't follow. Destroy is about getting rid of the Reapers. In Refuse Shepard lets them finish the job.

[36812180234]

paxxton wrote...

36812180234 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Restrider wrote...

Keep the poll running!
On another note:
I think Refuse should be handled better. To me, Refuse should stand out, since it means that you do not compromise with the options the Reapers/Brat offers you. Sadly, the result of Refuse, as it is shown now, is not worth the effort.

It does stand out. Shepard dooms the Galaxy because he's too proud to "compromise the soul of our species". Whatever that means.

Actually yes – this option is simply redundant, since he/she was already given an option to destroy.

Sorry, I don't follow. Destroy is about getting rid of the Reapers. In Refuse Shepard lets them finish the job.

Shepard refuses to make a right choice (destroy), while having a possibility. Therefore this choice also can be viewed as Critical Mission Failure.
On the other hand, one may consider the punishment for such a choice not fair, since Shepard did not do the choice. He/she was simply trying to push negotiations, when BAM … ALL OVER

[Cyberfrog81]

Rejecting the enemy (and his deadly suggestions) is a fine choice. To say otherwise, you need to employ metagaming / headcanon.

[36812180234]

That is why I say the punishment for Refuse would not be fair...

[paxxton]

36812180234 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

36812180234 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Restrider wrote...

Keep the poll running!
On another note:
I think Refuse should be handled better. To me, Refuse should stand out, since it means that you do not compromise with the options the Reapers/Brat offers you. Sadly, the result of Refuse, as it is shown now, is not worth the effort.

It does stand out. Shepard dooms the Galaxy because he's too proud to "compromise the soul of our species". Whatever that means.

Actually yes – this option is simply redundant, since he/she was already given an option to destroy.

Sorry, I don't follow. Destroy is about getting rid of the Reapers. In Refuse Shepard lets them finish the job.

Shepard refuses to make a right choice (destroy), while having a possibility. Therefore this choice also can be viewed as Critical Mission Failure.
On the other hand, one may consider the punishment for such a choice not fair, since Shepard did not do the choice. He/she was simply trying to push negotiations, when BAM … ALL OVER

Shepard took the risk but miscalculated it's degree and failed. Simple.  On the other hand, Refuse might end up being the only right choice for IT. Why? Because Shepard refuses to play Starchild's game and the punishment is so severe. It makes players regret choosing it.

[paxxton]

Refuse is almost universally hated. That's exactly why people refrain from choosing it and inadvertently succumb to Indoctrination.

Modifié par paxxton, 08 octobre 2012 - 12:57 .

[MegumiAzusa]

36812180234 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

36812180234 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Restrider wrote...

Keep the poll running!
On another note:
I think Refuse should be handled better. To me, Refuse should stand out, since it means that you do not compromise with the options the Reapers/Brat offers you. Sadly, the result of Refuse, as it is shown now, is not worth the effort.

It does stand out. Shepard dooms the Galaxy because he's too proud to "compromise the soul of our species". Whatever that means.

Actually yes – this option is simply redundant, since he/she was already given an option to destroy.

Sorry, I don't follow. Destroy is about getting rid of the Reapers. In Refuse Shepard lets them finish the job.

Shepard refuses to make a right choice (destroy), while having a possibility. Therefore this choice also can be viewed as Critical Mission Failure.
On the other hand, one may consider the punishment for such a choice not fair, since Shepard did not do the choice. He/she was simply trying to push negotiations, when BAM … ALL OVER

The problem is Shepard has to make a choice, but as also the files are named: Shepard opts out. And inaction is not what Shepard is about.

[paxxton]

In the original ending Refuse was also available. You just had to wait for a few minutes to see "The Crucible has been destroyed." Was there any other place in the game where the Critical Mission Failure screen had a custrom message?

It happened because Shepard could not make a decision in time, he lacked resolve. Refuse was camouflaged but it was there.

[MegumiAzusa]

paxxton wrote...

In the original ending Refuse was also available. You just had to wait for a few minutes to see "The Crucible has been destroyed." Was there any other place in the game where the Critical Mission Failure screen had a custom message?

It happened because Shepard could not make a decision in time, he lacked resolve. Refuse was camouflaged but it was there.

No there wasn't any other occurrence. Also keep in mind it also pops up if you go up one ramp, but then rethink your decision and try another, regardless of time, making it more obvious that it triggers because of the lacking of resolve/indecisive Shepard more obvious.

[KyreneZA]

Well Reapers don't tend to negotiate up or down, only sideways. So Refuse would always be "Game Over!"

And my goodness, were we ever invaded (oh crap, I said "we" didn't I?) over the weekend. Best solution to folks like Xil and that other chap is to ingore them from the get go. They drag this thread OT and then laugh as it gets locked. Best not to risk that.

Edit: Also, we're about IT here: arguing with literalists about literal interpretations of the endings is pointless. We do not subscribe to literal endings and should NEVER argue in that way. Whether or not Synthesis is galactic whatever, or whether or not Shepard can Control the Reapers, or whether or not the poor Geth and EDI all die is immaterial. It never happens like that, as it's all in Shepard's head.

Modifié par Kyrene, 08 octobre 2012 - 01:33 .

[Cyberfrog81]

Hey, Shepard, you can totally destroy us by shooting that thing over there.

How is that trustworthy? Granted, it's better than "lol poor TIM he couldn't get it up, but you're THE SHEPARD" (control) or the utter insanity of synthesis. Destroy rejects the Cycle as a valid solution to anything. That's a start.

But it still bothers me. In high-EMS destroy, he pretty much assures you that everything will be fine. Literalists who believe this, they escape indoctrination, while those who symbolically tell the Reaper overlord to go f- himself, are doomed? I can't make sense of that.

[KyreneZA]

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

In high-EMS destroy, he pretty much assures you that everything will be fine. Literalists who believe this, they escape indoctrination, while those who symbolically tell the Reaper overlord to go f- himself, are doomed? I can't make sense of that.

That's because you have a limited time to activate the Crucible in a literal setting. If Shepard takes too long Sword cannot stop the Reapers from destroying it (the Crucible) and with it all hope for any kind of resolution to this cycle apart from the utter destruction of all intelligent life.

Edit: I should take my own advice though. In an IT setting, Shepard vacillates too much, causing Harbinger to re-evaluate them as unworthy of even indoctrination/huskification and simply kills allows them to die while they are lying in the rubble. Commence end of cycle as with the literal interpretation of Refuse, resulting in Liara's beacons activating.

Modifié par Kyrene, 08 octobre 2012 - 01:47 .

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

Hey, Shepard, you can totally destroy us by shooting that thing over there.

How is that trustworthy? Granted, it's better than "lol poor TIM he couldn't get it up, but you're THE SHEPARD" (control) or the utter insanity of synthesis. Destroy rejects the Cycle as a valid solution to anything. That's a start.

But it still bothers me. In high-EMS destroy, he pretty much assures you that everything will be fine. Literalists who believe this, they escape indoctrination, while those who symbolically tell the Reaper overlord to go f- himself, are doomed? I can't make sense of that.

The difference I still think is that Destroy is not an option presented by the Starchild in proper: "I know you have thought about destroying us." It seems less like he is presenting it and more like he acknowledges the choice existence too me at least.

Beyond that Destroy is not a compromise. Shepard came to destroy the Reapers despite what sacrifices might be necesary, he is not agreeing to anything but his own mindset and doing what he always came to do when choosing Destroy. I dont see how the Reaper could ever get anything from Shepard in such a situation considering Indoctrination is all about making the victim agree to the Reapers point of view.

Then there is also the Breath scene, the single hardest scene to get in the ending exclusive to Destroy.

Finally if Destroy was a lose scenario as well Bioware had launched a game with a lose/lose/lose scenario at the end (under the IT).

My take is that Destroy is there because it has too. Either to make the illusion complete or because it is a representation of Shepards mind struggling against the Indoctrination. As everything is going on in Shepards mind the Catalyst has to acknowledge that Destroy is there or Shepard would get suspicious or similar.

But in the eyes of the Reapers Destroy is not really a loss either in my idea. Yeah Shepard broke free of the Illusion, but the Indoctrination remains. He just needs a bit more time and he will break anyway...or Harbinger is just on the other side of the illusion waiting to end Shepard should he break free (thus requiring some kind of intervention found in high EMS for Shepard to live to draw that breath)

As for Refuse...I dont really know.

It is a pretty speech, but Shepard backs it with nothing. Refusing to use the Crucible without some sort of backup plan is the same as condemming the current cycle. We cannot win conventionally, we cna hurt them, but we cannot win.

Shepard knows that sometimes sacrifices are necesary and cannot be avoided no matter if you are Paragon or Renegade (Virmire, Battle for the Citadel, Arrival) but in Refuse Shepard seems unwilling to make the necesary sacrifice thus an asociation with giving up.

I still think though that Refuse is better than Control/Synthesis, but in what way I think only time will tell.

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 08 octobre 2012 - 01:57 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

But it still bothers me. In high-EMS destroy, he pretty much assures you that everything will be fine. Literalists who believe this, they escape indoctrination, while those who symbolically tell the Reaper overlord to go f- himself, are doomed? I can't make sense of that.

In destroy, (whether the results we see are real or not) you do what you came to do. You stay your ground. You're not dissuaded by Reaper propaganda. You keep fighting.

In refuse, you give up. You're disheartened by the choices presented to you and don't even want to fight on. You don't even want to destroy the Reapers anymore.You can't make the hard choices. Which means death of character for every Shepard.

I would even say refusing is stupid, because you doom the entire galaxy to extinction because you don't want to sacrifice EDI and the Geth (both of which have stated they are prepared to die for the cause).

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 08 octobre 2012 - 01:57 .

[TSA_383]

paxxton wrote...

My reaction to MP's quality during Operation Overdrive.
http://www.youtube.c...Alq2Qn3Q#t=376s

EDIT: Listen to what the VI says about the Thorian and consider how similar it is to Leviathan. He describes the colonists as thralls and states that the Thorian views them as tools. I tell you there's a connection.

Was that the game that FFZero and I dragged you through? 

[KyreneZA]

TOPIC                                                                                                     REPLIES        VIEWS
Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!      31,643     235,144
Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark II!       55,530     887,875
Was the ending a hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory                      57,142  1,043,528 
                                                                                                                   144,315  2,166,547
Total Views (disregarding those created by posting)                                      2,022,232

Modifié par Kyrene, 08 octobre 2012 - 02:08 .

[Pascal219]

twitter.com/GambleMike/status/254665092518526976


someone asked when can they go back and play the me3 ending

[paxxton]

TSA_383 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

My reaction to MP's quality during Operation Overdrive.
http://www.youtube.c...Alq2Qn3Q#t=376s

EDIT: Listen to what the VI says about the Thorian and consider how similar it is to Leviathan. He describes the colonists as thralls and states that the Thorian views them as tools. I tell you there's a connection.

Was that the game that FFZero and I dragged you through? 

I was refering more to awful lags and warping, lost connections, being stuck on the join screen, dying even though I still had half the ring to go, double executions, double revivals, the shuttle hovering over the LZ for the whole mission. And the most peculiar glitch of all: 3 of 4 non-hosting players kicked out, the host gets the credits.

I rather not remember that mission.  Couldn't stay alive for more than a couple of minutes. And it was supposed to be Silver? No way! I guess BioWare boosts regular difficulties on OP Sundays.  And it's not only me who noticed that.

Modifié par paxxton, 08 octobre 2012 - 02:34 .