80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Rifneno]

Hmm. I just realized that in ME2, TIM said he wished they could've recovered Morinth's corpse because they wanted to do some research. ME3, Reapers show up and make banshees shortly afterward. I'm thinking he may have been more under Reaper control in ME2 than many of us, myself included, thought.

[TheWill]

if some believe the ending as literal and take everything the kid says as true.. then why doesnt shepard die during destroy like the kid says... surely if he doesnt die then you cant take anything else he says as true... its like believing somebody that you know will lie to you.... why do it....?

[paxxton]

Rifneno wrote...

Hmm. I just realized that in ME2, TIM said he wished they could've recovered Morinth's corpse because they wanted to do some research. ME3, Reapers show up and make banshees shortly afterward. I'm thinking he may have been more under Reaper control in ME2 than many of us, myself included, thought.

Or maybe Cerberus recovered the body and TIM is the real leader of the Reapers. That's why they have Banshees. jk

[Restrider]

Rifneno wrote...

Hmm. I just realized that in ME2, TIM said he wished they could've recovered Morinth's corpse because they wanted to do some research. ME3, Reapers show up and make banshees shortly afterward. I'm thinking he may have been more under Reaper control in ME2 than many of us, myself included, thought.

Maybe, though I think it is farfetched.
I always thought of Cerberus as a group that is trying to use any leverage they can find to fulfill their goals. By studying the Ardat Yakshi condition this may give some interesting results/info about Asari physiology and could be used as a biological or political weapon somehow.
Even as leverage, blackmailing the Asari by threatening them to spread the truth about Ardat Yakshi backed up with the studies on Morinth's corpse (this condition is only known a ancient rumor in Asari public and not known by any alien species; that's why the planet with the monastery is an isolated backwater).

[Revan87]

"We are the beginning, you are the end"
The Reapers are the begin of the cycle(s) we are the end. Does harbinger know, that we will end the cycle? Could be a hint to synthesis-> Crucible Reaper Trap/Device. That would also fit with the fact, that Omega was built by the Reapers and is in fact a crucible.

It's funny how "foreshadowing" harbingers quotes are, now as we have those 3 choices at the end.

[paxxton]

"Your demise is inevitable!"
"Shepard, your persistence is in vain!"
"Surrender, Shepard!"
"You are filth!"
 
Could be quotes from Harbinger in Omega DLC.

Modifié par paxxton, 11 octobre 2012 - 11:49 .

[Rifneno]

Restrider wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Hmm. I just realized that in ME2, TIM said he wished they could've recovered Morinth's corpse because they wanted to do some research. ME3, Reapers show up and make banshees shortly afterward. I'm thinking he may have been more under Reaper control in ME2 than many of us, myself included, thought.

Maybe, though I think it is farfetched.
I always thought of Cerberus as a group that is trying to use any leverage they can find to fulfill their goals. By studying the Ardat Yakshi condition this may give some interesting results/info about Asari physiology and could be used as a biological or political weapon somehow.
Even as leverage, blackmailing the Asari by threatening them to spread the truth about Ardat Yakshi backed up with the studies on Morinth's corpse (this condition is only known a ancient rumor in Asari public and not known by any alien species; that's why the planet with the monastery is an isolated backwater).

http://masseffect.wi...fect:_Evolution

[Restrider]

I've read that comic and I am well aware of the content, Rifneno. I still think that TIM is not a reaper puppet since ME 2 and I am sure that Morinth's corpse would've been used for what I said earlier rather than to create Banshees.

[masster blaster]

Don't forget TIM wanted Legion, and Grunt. Also I find it funny, that if you save Morith, she becomes a Banshee. I guess TIM got what he wanted, and doesn't strike you that TIM stops his recordings right before he get's his implants. In other words, that was the last time you will see TIM as he is. Also I find it funny that in Synthesis, and Control The reporter is on Earth crying, yet in Destroy she is not in it.

Also in the painting where it shows Coalts, Gabby, and Kenith are right next to him, and so is the other guy we see fighting off the husk.

[masster blaster]

Not a puppet Restrifer, but a voice in his head. In the comic Jack hears voices in his head, and it's a Reaper ( Harbinger maybe) and at the end get's a crazy idea to start Cerberus.

Yet it back fires because everything that Cerberus has done has been for nothing, except bringing Shepard back to life. Now let's think about this they had to use Reaper tech to bring Shepard back to life because nobody else has ever been brought back to life, except Shepard, yet there was no technology to bring Shepard back to life, except Reaper tech.

Miranda said she worked with so manu black boxes, that she didn't even know what was in them, and don't you find it funny that Reaper implants inhans the persons strenght.

Hence when fighting the Shadowbroker, and head butting krogan.

[masster blaster]

Also doesn't Grayson die before Shepard comes back to life?

[paxxton]

"You will surrender your potential against the growing void." What if the void is the indoctrinated part of Shepard's mind that is getting more and more influential?

Modifié par paxxton, 11 octobre 2012 - 01:15 .

[paxxton]

Harbinger (trying to persuade Shepard not to destroy him during the final boss fight): "Shepard, I was once like you. They made me do it all. I'm innocent!"

Modifié par paxxton, 11 octobre 2012 - 01:13 .

[Andromidius]

Rifneno wrote...

Hmm. I just realized that in ME2, TIM said he wished they could've recovered Morinth's corpse because they wanted to do some research. ME3, Reapers show up and make banshees shortly afterward. I'm thinking he may have been more under Reaper control in ME2 than many of us, myself included, thought.

Indeed.

The thing people often misunderstand about long-term Indoctrination is that it isn't straight-up mind control.  Its a form of manipulation  Its slowly worming into your mind, convincing you that the goals of the Reapers should be your own.

TIM's goals are:

1/ Protection of Humanity at any cost.
2/ The betterment of Humanity at any cost.
3/ Domination of the Galaxy at any cost.

During this he experiments with indoctrination and huskification, with modifying Geth programs, replicating Reaper technology, forcing huskification on the unwilling and genetic engineering.

He might not be working with the Reapers, but he's sure embracing their values and morals.  He thinks that Humanity should be the peek of Evolution and the masters of the Galaxy - and seemingly he doesn't even care if that means becoming just like the Reapers.

He's so much of a thrall of the Reapers that he doesn't even know it, and think he's fighting against them despite never launching a single attack against them post-Collector Base.  I'd surmise that the attack on Sanctuary was actually an attempt by the Reapers to cover up TIM's activities to better protect his 'sleeper agent' appereance.

The Reapers want Humanity to accept their goals, using TIM as their spokesperson indirectly.  TIM is constantly expanding Cerberus, either by recruitment or enslavement, and is regularly trying to influence the actions of Shepard right up until the end.  And he succeeds.

"So the Illusive Man was right after all..."

[DoomsdayDevice]

Revan87 wrote...

It's funny how "foreshadowing" harbingers quotes are, now as we have those 3 choices at the end.

No kidding, just look at these gems with Synthesis in mind:

“The flesh is a machine.”
“Evolution cannot be stopped.”
“They will be as we are.”
“Relinquish your form to us.”
“Embrace perfection.”
“We are limitless.”
“You cannot escape your destiny, Shepard.”
“Your worlds will become our laboratories.”
“We are your genetic destiny.”
“We are the Harbinger of your perfection.”
“We are the Harbinger of your ascendance.”
“Progress cannot be halted.”
“We are the Harbinger of your destiny.”
“We are your destiny.”

[masster blaster]

Ah but people forget " Yes, but he could never do it because we already controlled him." Ya the Reaper leader just said they Controlled TIM, so doesn't that mean everything TIM has done in ME3 has been what the Reapers told TIM to do.

[DoomsdayDevice]

As for the red herring, I think it's simply the fact that the AI paints the Reapers as being good guys, just doing their programming to preserve life.

It is the fake plot twist that conceals the real plot twist.

Hey! Here's a plot twist! Reapers were just being good guys! Now make your decision.

*picks synthesis*

Hey! Here's the real plot twist! The other plot twist was just a lie so you'd make the wrong decision! YOU FOOL HAHAHAHAHA

[Andromidius]

masster blaster wrote...

Ah but people forget " Yes, but he could never do it because we already controlled him." Ya the Reaper leader just said they Controlled TIM, so doesn't that mean everything TIM has done in ME3 has been what the Reapers told TIM to do.

Indirectly.  Doesn't mean he was a willing pawn, or even knew about it.

And hell, Starbinger is a lying piece of crap.  Even a damning comment like that can't be taken at face value.

[Restrider]

On the TIM topic:
The Reaper influence started 20 years ago. As we all now, the subtle indoctrination process leaves the victim with mental capacities to complete their task. This means, long term indoctrination does not create husks, but sleeper agents.
As pointed out earlier, Cerberus' goals are:

1) Protection of humanity.
2) Advancement of humanity.
3) Securing human dominance.

All those experiments in ME 1 (Thorian creepers, husks, thresher maws, rachni...) were done with the intention to secure humanity (along the line that knowledge and understanding is a form of power) and advance it. In ME 2 this includes projects such as Overlord, the studies on human biotics and Lazarus. Note that all Cerberus personnel consists of usually committed loyalists/xenophics/racists/nationalists (if you want to use that term). You could say they are indoctrinated politically (not Reaper indoctrination).
After the Grayson experiment TIM starts to "integrate" his troops, ie. using Reaper tech to ensure their loyalty. This is the point, where TIM's goals kind of shift from destroying the Reapers to controlling them (foreshadowed in the endings of ME 2). As this shift happens, TIM needs to "integrate" his personnel since only a few would actually risk the galactic fate on such an experiment to control the Reapers. That's why all of the Cerberus squadmates/crewmembers leave Cerberus, because the goals are shifting. That's how Cerberus changes from a shadow organisation with a shady reputation to a full scale army of doom ("integrating" refugees at Sanctuary).
And that is also the point where TIM is fully committed to the Reapers.
Sure he is influenced by them in ME 2 and even before that, but I think that he has still enough free will to decide what he wants and that is to prepare humanity for the Reaper war (I really believe that he is honest in that part of the game).
And that's why I still say that the experiments performed in ME 1/2 are done to get some edge in the upcoming battles and not some kind of outsourced Reaper R&D.

Modifié par Restrider, 11 octobre 2012 - 01:48 .

[Lyria]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I swear proto, if you summon him....lol

Seems my Forummancy has failed. No GBGriffin.

I should post more to train up my forum magic.


 
On a relative topic, TIM has been affected since he encountered the rEAper artifact. The rEApers played the long game with him. All his choices at first seemed like it was his choice but the more the plot moves forward it all fits within the rEAper plan.

Modifié par protognosis, 11 octobre 2012 - 01:51 .

[Rifneno]

Andromidius wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Hmm. I just realized that in ME2, TIM said he wished they could've recovered Morinth's corpse because they wanted to do some research. ME3, Reapers show up and make banshees shortly afterward. I'm thinking he may have been more under Reaper control in ME2 than many of us, myself included, thought.

Indeed.

The thing people often misunderstand about long-term Indoctrination is that it isn't straight-up mind control.  Its a form of manipulation  Its slowly worming into your mind, convincing you that the goals of the Reapers should be your own.

TIM's goals are:

1/ Protection of Humanity at any cost.
2/ The betterment of Humanity at any cost.
3/ Domination of the Galaxy at any cost.

During this he experiments with indoctrination and huskification, with modifying Geth programs, replicating Reaper technology, forcing huskification on the unwilling and genetic engineering.

He might not be working with the Reapers, but he's sure embracing their values and morals.  He thinks that Humanity should be the peek of Evolution and the masters of the Galaxy - and seemingly he doesn't even care if that means becoming just like the Reapers.

He's so much of a thrall of the Reapers that he doesn't even know it, and think he's fighting against them despite never launching a single attack against them post-Collector Base.  I'd surmise that the attack on Sanctuary was actually an attempt by the Reapers to cover up TIM's activities to better protect his 'sleeper agent' appereance.

The Reapers want Humanity to accept their goals, using TIM as their spokesperson indirectly.  TIM is constantly expanding Cerberus, either by recruitment or enslavement, and is regularly trying to influence the actions of Shepard right up until the end.  And he succeeds.

"So the Illusive Man was right after all..."

<krogan shaman> I like this human, he understands!  </krogan shaman>

It's only straight up mind control at the end.  Most of the time it's simple manipulation.  Even with Saren, he wasn't totally under Nazara's control or he wouldn't have been able to blow his brains out.  Retribution had some excellent examples of Reaper manipulation.  For those that haven't read it, here's an excellent example: Paul Grayson is going to send Kahlee Sanders a message to tell her to get the hell away from him at all costs.  He knows the Reapers are in his head and he's terrified of what they might make him do to her if they cross paths.  Meanwhile, the Reapers are intrigued and want to meet Kahlee.  So as Grayson opens the terminal to send her the warning, he gets a flood of hormones.  He's still thinking for himself, but he's thinking with the wrong head now.  Instead of warning her, he sets up a meeting.

[Xilizhra]

Hey! Here's the real plot twist! The other plot twist was just a lie so you'd make the wrong decision! YOU FOOL HAHAHAHAHA

AKA bad storytelling. I won't wholly discount IT, but it can't come from just one ending. It's entirely too dismissive of anyone who picked a different choice.

[lex0r11]

Hey guys, I think I just foun..

*has to think about the 2 volus dodge rolling around the map from last game*

*can't stay serious because of all the lulz*

Nevermind.

[Restrider]

Rifneno wrote...
<krogan shaman> I like this human, he understands!  </krogan shaman>

It's only straight up mind control at the end.  Most of the time it's simple manipulation.  Even with Saren, he wasn't totally under Nazara's control or he wouldn't have been able to blow his brains out.  Retribution had some excellent examples of Reaper manipulation.  For those that haven't read it, here's an excellent example: Paul Grayson is going to send Kahlee Sanders a message to tell her to get the hell away from him at all costs.  He knows the Reapers are in his head and he's terrified of what they might make him do to her if they cross paths.  Meanwhile, the Reapers are intrigued and want to meet Kahlee.  So as Grayson opens the terminal to send her the warning, he gets a flood of hormones.  He's still thinking for himself, but he's thinking with the wrong head now.  Instead of warning her, he sets up a meeting.

I think we all agree on TIM then? I was just stating that TIM was not doing those experiments as some kind of outsourced R&D of the Reapers, but because he thought this would ensure human/Cerberus dominance or at least give them some kind of edge.
As I posted earlier, the change from personnel joining and staying with Cerberus voluntarily, because they have a specific mindset, to forcing loyalty through "integration" is a good indicator when TIM was not influenced subtly, but outright controlled.

[Heimdall]

Xilizhra wrote...

Hey! Here's the real plot twist! The other plot twist was just a lie so you'd make the wrong decision! YOU FOOL HAHAHAHAHA

AKA bad storytelling. I won't wholly discount IT, but it can't come from just one ending. It's entirely too dismissive of anyone who picked a different choice.

Pretty much my reasoning.

I also have difficulty accepting any theory that requires me to believe that the entirety of the Extended Cut epilogue scenes were released purely to deceive people, not to mention the release of an intentionally incomplete game.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 11 octobre 2012 - 02:02 .