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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!

Débuté par byne , juil. 30 2012 07:09

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#32801
Andromidius
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 03:39

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Rifneno wrote...
Actually, most of us do feel that way.  You probably misunderstood her.  She means she won't accept BW eventually going the IT route because canonizing IT would invalidate that retarded synthesis nonsense.  Same problem most literalists have: they refuse to accept that they ****ed up and got indoctrinated.  So IT must be wrong.  Because clearly tree bark with wires in it is the logical conclusion. :?


But we don't demand it become canon.  We already deduced that it is canon already.  Big difference.

#32802
KyreneZA
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 03:39

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Restrider wrote...

Kyrene wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

It was trending further and further in that direction, yes. In the end, TIM was nearly completely under Reaper control - though not fully, as again you can make him shoot himself. Which means Starbinger's smug statement that TIM was under their control could actually be taken with a grain of salt, they lost control of him in the end.

False. TIM never shot himself. At least not if IT is true...

I think TIM deserves better than such an end (though it was not as Shepard's end in a literal POV). I hope that TIM/Cerberus will actually provide us with something truly important.

I don't. TIM deserves to die by his own gun, but he has not died yet. Nor has any Shepard, even if they chose Blue or Green. Regardless of IT getting an ending or being canonized, I can live with headcanon where the BW presented EC endings are not real (the breath scene excepted of course, since that is on Earth).

#32803
Xilizhra
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 03:40

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Andromidius wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
Actually, most of us do feel that way.  You probably misunderstood her.  She means she won't accept BW eventually going the IT route because canonizing IT would invalidate that retarded synthesis nonsense.  Same problem most literalists have: they refuse to accept that they ****ed up and got indoctrinated.  So IT must be wrong.  Because clearly tree bark with wires in it is the logical conclusion. :?


But we don't demand it become canon.  We already deduced that it is canon already.  Big difference.

It isn't canon until it's confirmed. As of now, it remains a fanon interpretation.

#32804
demersel
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 03:41

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Xilizhra wrote...

gee, and why would that be....?

Less violence.


OH, RLY? :lol:
That's rich. 

#32805
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 03:42

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Andromidius wrote...

It was trending further and further in that direction, yes. In the end, TIM was nearly completely under Reaper control - though not fully, as again you can make him shoot himself. Which means Starbinger's smug statement that TIM was under their control could actually be taken with a grain of salt, they lost control of him in the end.


In the nearly exact same way that Saren dies.

In the room that reminds us of the Council auditorium.

Past the bridge that reminds us of the Shadow Broker Base.

Starting from the hallway that reminds us of the Collector Base.

After the jolt that reminds us of Reaper enthrallment.

And the beam area that has the trees from Shepard's 'dreams'.


It's weird to see on this thread, people taking TIM seriously, like he's really TIM, in the ending.

#32806
Rifneno
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 03:42

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Xilizhra wrote...

You know, blatant logical fallacies don't actually make you cool. And I'm not against IT, just against it making only one choice valid. Hell, even Refuse is valid for some people, and I prefer it that way. There's no point in making trap options at the very end of the game; that should only be the case for minor branches like sleeping with Morinth, that you can reload after.


Blatant logical fallacies. Tell me again how Leviathan killed IT because the squid said it made an AI and that proves the catalyst is real which proves everything else is real. That was a fun one. In fact, all of Leviathan was fun in that regard. Remember when I said that the Leviathans were going to be villains and you said "just because it's big and ugly doesn't mean it's evil, Cullen." Sure is a wonder why I'm not giddy for more of that kind of riveting conversation.

Okay, so you can't reload and pick destroy if there's an IT DLC? Yeah, my logical fallacies sure are bad.

#32807
Restrider
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 03:45

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About 15 minutes left for the poll!

#32808
KyreneZA
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 03:46

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SwobyJ wrote...

It's weird to see on this thread, people taking TIM seriously, like he's really TIM, in the ending.

Indeed.

#32809
Xilizhra
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 03:46

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Okay, so you can't reload and pick destroy if there's an IT DLC? Yeah, my logical fallacies sure are bad.

You forgot the "minor branch" part of my statement. In any case, I can't; I'd have to restart the entire Citadel sequence. I mean, it's not going to be a dealbreaker because my Shepard would never believe in Destroy regardless, just go through with it because she'd realize she's indoctrinated, but it'd be an unnecessary nuisance and cut off some interesting possibilities. Also force me to metagame.

#32810
demersel
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 03:47

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Restrider wrote...

About 15 minutes left for the poll!


voted.

#32811
Andromidius
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 03:48

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SwobyJ wrote...

It's weird to see on this thread, people taking TIM seriously, like he's really TIM, in the ending.


My point was that you can't take Starbinger's word at controlling TIM at face value, even if what happened really happened.  It obviously didn't.

TIM is definately influenced by them, maybe even a thrall of them.  But there's no conclusive evidence that he's directly in league with them as Saren was.

#32812
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 03:49

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Restrider wrote...

Kyrene wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

It was trending further and further in that direction, yes. In the end, TIM was nearly completely under Reaper control - though not fully, as again you can make him shoot himself. Which means Starbinger's smug statement that TIM was under their control could actually be taken with a grain of salt, they lost control of him in the end.

False. TIM never shot himself. At least not if IT is true...

I think TIM deserves better than such an end (though it was not as Shepard's end in a literal POV). I hope that TIM/Cerberus will actually provide us with something truly important.


And yeah, that's what I'm getting at.

I DON'T think the ending will be changed. I think it mostly stands how it is, perhaps with more Catalyst lines and other such things, but the 'TIM', and 'Catalyst' conversations will stay imo.

But if Omega DLC ends up what I think it will be, it will show that there's more to Cerberus' plan than we assumed (even though we could conceptually understand this in the basic conversations with TIM in the main game). Yet at the same time, it will still justify most of what we see in the Cerberus Base and London.

Just like how Leviathan supports both the literal view of the Catalyst, but has some VERY interesting details that seem to imply that Shepard is under some form of mind control in the ending, opening up the ideas of things like the 'Catalyst' child actually being Harbinger.

We may be under the 'perfect illusion', but that is still an illusion. People poked holes in it ever since the ME3 demo with the child, or even since Arrival in some ways. DLC for ME3 just illustrates just HOW we can be under that illusion.

I nearly fully expect Omega DLC to both justify a literal view of TIM's fate, while making ITers go 'Whoh, wait, what about ____ (content of DLC + content of TIM's other conversations in game).'


Best result? We actually see TIM again in an expansion or the next Mass Effect. Cerberus is NOT an enemy again, because its been dismantled (but I wouldn't be surprised to see forms of indoctrinated armies) and torn apart, but TIM may not be done his story just yet.

#32813
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 03:51

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Kyrene wrote...

Restrider wrote...

Kyrene wrote...

Andromidius wrote...

It was trending further and further in that direction, yes. In the end, TIM was nearly completely under Reaper control - though not fully, as again you can make him shoot himself. Which means Starbinger's smug statement that TIM was under their control could actually be taken with a grain of salt, they lost control of him in the end.

False. TIM never shot himself. At least not if IT is true...

I think TIM deserves better than such an end (though it was not as Shepard's end in a literal POV). I hope that TIM/Cerberus will actually provide us with something truly important.

I don't. TIM deserves to die by his own gun, but he has not died yet. Nor has any Shepard, even if they chose Blue or Green. Regardless of IT getting an ending or being canonized, I can live with headcanon where the BW presented EC endings are not real (the breath scene excepted of course, since that is on Earth).


I'm sure we're not done with the Mass Effect story, and we'll get answers at some point. The story, expanding beyond the Milky Way Galaxy, will continue.

But will they let players speculate for up to 1-2 years? Sure! It keeps some attention on the IP.

We'll see confirmed what happened to TIM, for better or worse.

#32814
MegumiAzusa
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 03:51

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Yay! More wubwub these guys with thousands of points are insane btw.

#32815
masster blaster
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 03:54

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Xil then it will be punishment for not killing the Reapers, as it was a punishment for not prepareing for the sucide misson.

#32816
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 03:57

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Andromidius wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

It's weird to see on this thread, people taking TIM seriously, like he's really TIM, in the ending.


My point was that you can't take Starbinger's word at controlling TIM at face value, even if what happened really happened.  It obviously didn't.

TIM is definately influenced by them, maybe even a thrall of them.  But there's no conclusive evidence that he's directly in league with them as Saren was.


Exactly. If he's still in 'Control' mindset, he will ALWAYS resist in some form, until they bloody 100% huskify him themselves.

Control = stalemate, in some form. In some ways, he wins in ways that Destroyers could never win (like bringing back Shepard... and many other things I listed earlier), but in some ways, he totally fails (being indoctrinated into Reaper beliefs about apex species etc).

And if TIM at the end isn't real... we may be up for a great Cerberus-plan surprise - making Sanctuary and a literal view of London seem tiny.

Doesn't mean he's a good guy. He's not. He's been touched by the Reapers since that one comic. But by doing so, he's gained insight into them that a purely indoctrinated person never could, and IMO we'll see that unfold.

And the Citadel scene is more a fight between parts of Shepard's mind, represented by his memories, hopes, and fears. Anderson 'dying' is representitive of Shepard giving up the fight to Destory the Reapers - he sacrificed this part of himself to stave off the indoctrination (TIM). Now he's open to more sophisticated manipulation, but also a desperate one because it still leaves Destroy as an option in Shepard's mind.

WE have to be the Anderson in this scenario, because Shep's Anderson is dead.

#32817
Xilizhra
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 03:58

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masster blaster wrote...

Xil then it will be punishment for not killing the Reapers, as it was a punishment for not prepareing for the sucide misson.

This is invalid. The suicide mission is a purely mechanical affair, not a roleplaying one. The two things are wholly different.

#32818
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 03:58

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Oh, and the whole Citadel scene is to show that the 'Catalyst' is wrong.

Control is wrong. Shepard 100% believes this until the elevator ride...

Synthesis however, is something you need to be more aware of the series for (from the big plotlines, to how Reapers work, to small lines from the crew in all games), to understand its implications.

#32819
Either.Ardrey
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 03:59

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I, for one, wouldn't be surprised at all if Bioware canonized the ending one way or the other, "invalidating" the others. If it were such a case as IT, then Bioware would have told the game's message by making us actually experience it first-hand: It is incredibly easy to make a wrong decision because a wrong decision can look like a good decision, but that doesn't make it any less of a wrong decision. They could also be saying, sometimes there is only one right answer, and that we need to be ready for such instances. They could merely be proving just how easy it is to indoctrinate using textbook psychology practices. Those are certainly themes I'd write about, so I don't see why Bioware wouldn't consider it.

#32820
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 04:00

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Xilizhra wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Xil then it will be punishment for not killing the Reapers, as it was a punishment for not prepareing for the sucide misson.

This is invalid. The suicide mission is a purely mechanical affair, not a roleplaying one. The two things are wholly different.


No it isn't.

It's just inversed compared to the suicide mission.


MO EMS, MO OPTIONS.

And the more complicated the ending becomes. Control opens up. Synthesis opens up. High EMS Destroy opens up.

If it was a roleplaying affair, Catalyst would just offer everything at once.

#32821
Andromidius
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 04:00

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I see picking Synthesis as failing at game mechanics as well. Let's see, resisting reaperised enemies all game...and then deciding everyone should become one. Sounds legit.

#32822
Xilizhra
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 04:02

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SwobyJ wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Xil then it will be punishment for not killing the Reapers, as it was a punishment for not prepareing for the sucide misson.

This is invalid. The suicide mission is a purely mechanical affair, not a roleplaying one. The two things are wholly different.


No it isn't.

It's just inversed compared to the suicide mission.


MO EMS, MO OPTIONS.

And the more complicated the ending becomes. Control opens up. Synthesis opens up. High EMS Destroy opens up.

If it was a roleplaying affair, Catalyst would just offer everything at once.

The Catalyst offers everything at once in the vast majority of peoples' games. They wanted to make EMS mean something, but what it means is more options to roleplay through, not more options for vindictive trickery on Bioware's part. I still have no idea why you'd even want this exclusionary practice.

#32823
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 04:03

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Either.Ardrey wrote...

I, for one, wouldn't be surprised at all if Bioware canonized the ending one way or the other, "invalidating" the others. If it were such a case as IT, then Bioware would have told the game's message by making us actually experience it first-hand: It is incredibly easy to make a wrong decision because a wrong decision can look like a good decision, but that doesn't make it any less of a wrong decision. They could also be saying, sometimes there is only one right answer, and that we need to be ready for such instances. They could merely be proving just how easy it is to indoctrinate using textbook psychology practices. Those are certainly themes I'd write about, so I don't see why Bioware wouldn't consider it.


Yes, and Mac Walters is a psych grad. Not sure if undergrad or masters.

And Bioware has this history in some form. You are Revan in KOTOR. Your master is the bad guy in Jade Empire. The whole galaxy system is a trap in Mass Effect.

This is just a bit more... elaborate.

#32824
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 04:04

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Xilizhra wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Xil then it will be punishment for not killing the Reapers, as it was a punishment for not prepareing for the sucide misson.

This is invalid. The suicide mission is a purely mechanical affair, not a roleplaying one. The two things are wholly different.


No it isn't.

It's just inversed compared to the suicide mission.


MO EMS, MO OPTIONS.

And the more complicated the ending becomes. Control opens up. Synthesis opens up. High EMS Destroy opens up.

If it was a roleplaying affair, Catalyst would just offer everything at once.

The Catalyst offers everything at once in the vast majority of peoples' games. They wanted to make EMS mean something, but what it means is more options to roleplay through, not more options for vindictive trickery on Bioware's part. I still have no idea why you'd even want this exclusionary practice.


Most players do most loyalty missions and upgrades in ME2, statistically. Meaning most have all or most options to succeed in the mission.

And vindictive trickery? Man, if you're proven wrong about the ending, I'd hate to take your approach on it. I actually see this kind of thing as... well... actually quite artistic. For reals, instead of jokes.


BTW I picked Synthesis first. It's OK.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 11 octobre 2012 - 04:05 .

#32825
Xilizhra
Posté 11 octobre 2012 - 04:06

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And vindictive trickery? Man, if you're proven wrong about the ending, I'd hate to take your approach on it. I actually see this kind of thing as... well... actually quite artistic. For reals, instead of jokes.

The suicide mission's preparation only requires an ordinary level of completionism to make it through. In this case, it'd be pissing on everyone who didn't support genocide, unless they metagame it. Also completely destroying the value of choice. That's a far more profound betrayal of what the game is, to me, than the ending as it is now.
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