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[hiraeth]

estebanus wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I wonder what would people choose if they were Commander Shepard and ME was real? With all the consequences of that choice on their and the Galaxy's lives.

Knowing what's at stake if I fail?
Victory. At any cost. Any future is better than being turned into a reaper.

QFT

[Restrider]

Restrider wrote...

As I already mentioned earlier, I wanted to create some kind of IT FAQ. Since I do not really know what the frequently asked questions might be, I skipped that idea and tried to make a list of the ten most important concepts of IT. As you can see I highlighted the general concept and backed it up with additional information. I will try to include links to important posts further backing up the concepts (please post it/pm me if you have links to share). I am still not sure what the last two concepts could be to add to the in-game list. Please post your opinions.
Here is the post with all the polls!

----------The ten most important reasons for The Indoctrination Theory----------

       I) Indoctrination in general :

          1.   Regarding IT, Shepard is in the process of indoctrination and the outcome is decided by the final decision taken.
          2.   The concept of indoctrination is a crucial part throughout the trilogy and nothing new to the player (link 1and 2).
          3.   Rana Thanoptis is an example of how subtle and slow indoctrination can be.
          4.   Shepard knocked out for two days by a Reaper artifact that indoctrinated an entire facility.
          5.   Logs on the derelict Reaper illustrate the reactions of victims of indoctrination.
          6.   Paul Grayson's indoctrination show its effects on someone's mind.
          7.   Harbinger's smacktalk (link 1 and 2).
 
      II) The Breath Scene :

          1.   London rubble.
          2.   Mako in the background.
          3.   Citadel explosion (link 1 and 2).

     III) The Dreams :
         
          1.   Dream sequences and post-beam sequence share the same game mechanics.
          2.   Reality-nonreality transition after beam shot (post-beam, dreams, Geth Consensus).
          3.   Oily shadows and whispering.
          4.   Nightmares are mentioned in the Arrival by subjects being indoctrinated.
          5.   Chambers and Asari having PTSD as comparison between PTSD & Shepard's dreams.
 
     IV) Leviathan :
          1.   Harbinger/the Reapers perfected enthrallment to indoctrination.
          2.   Enthrallment uses memories of its victim.
          3.   Similarities between Leviathan end and decision chamber.
          4.   Zap sound as a sign to enter/leave virtual reality (link 1 and 2).
          5.   Note the file name of the sixth murder that can be found in Bryson's lab.

List of in-game reasons:
 1) The Kid :
   - teleportation in Vancouver
   - opens a door that is marked as locked
   - survives blast
   - not seen by anyone else
   - warning symbols

 2) The Citadel :
   - resembling events of the past
   - Coats dead on the Citadel

 3) Anderson & TIM :
   - how did Anderson follow Shepard?
   - how can Anderson reach the control first?
   - why did no one else follow Anderson?
   - from where did TIM shows up?
   - Anderson addressing Shepard ("They are controlling you!")
   - Shepard being dominated by TIM and thus through him by the Reapers
   - Anderson's wound (link 1 and 2)
   - Reaper horn played in the background (at 1/2 speed)

 4) The Choices :
   - Shepard on his knees happened only during/after some mind control
   - the Guardian is aligned to the Reapers
   - Control and Synthesis being supported by indoctrinated characters
   - a swap in the colours (TIM = Paragon; Anderson = Renegade)
   - huskification during Control/Synthesis vs. Shepard gaining strength while shooting the tubes
   - Guardian losing it when you refuse ("SO BE IT!")
   - decision chamber looks like a dialogue wheel from an aerial view
   - decision chamber resembling beam
   - ambiguous end dialogue (Control/Synthesis)
   - slide shows in Control/Synthesis/Destroy illustrate future possibilities, not facts that already happened
   - soldiers in Destroy fighting fiercely while in Control/Synthesis they are losing (on a side note: no cheering in Synthesis)

 5) The Beam Run :
   - Harbinger pin-pointing everyone and everything but Shepard
   - Harbinger not destroying the Normandy
   - Shepard surviving the blast that one-shots Makos and Gunships
   - Harbinger leaving

 6) The Guardian :
   - has the same shape as the kid (extraction of Shepard's memories)
   - speaks with femshep's and broshep's voice
   - Harbinger's line in the MP trailer (link 1 and 2)

ignore this, its backup

[spotlessvoid]

estebanus wrote...

paxxton wrote...

I wonder what would people choose if they were Commander Shepard and ME was real? With all the consequences of that choice on their and the Galaxy's lives.

Knowing what's at stake if I fail?
Victory. At any cost. Any future is better than being turned into a reaper.

so that eliminates synthesis

[Restrider]

Results are out!
New poll is up!
List has been updated!

[hiraeth]

i recently played ME1 and was really struck by a quote from vigil on ilos after shepard asks it why the reapers repeat their pattern of destruction:

"The Reapers are alien, unknowable. Perhaps they need slaves or resources. More likely, they are driven by motives and goals organic beings cannot hope to comprehend. In the end, what does it matter? Your survival depends on stopping them, not in understanding them."

word.

[Restrider]

paxxton wrote...

Restrider wrote...

Ladies and Gentlemen, the time has come to vote on the polls!
(1&2)
The Fourth Poll is going to be  closed within 45 minutes!

I voted in your poll. You vote in mine.
http://social.biowar...66/polls/40322/

I already did. I am the lonely 2% at the bottom

[masster blaster]

Restrider. What you can put for under the Citadel, that in ME1 Vigil says the Citadel is a trap.
Thus the ending The Citadel has been a trap set up by the Reapers.

[shepskisaac]

BatmanTurian wrote...

That may be, but his rigid logic and the situation of choice (of not being forced) is the same. Only the words have changed.

His logic & motivations are not like of the Architect. The cycles are very similar and visually, I've been comparing Sovereign conversation with Deus Ex Machina-Neo conversation since day 1, but the comparsions end on the cycles idea and the presentation of Sovereign and Catalyst scenes. Architect was tasked with the goal of designing the Matrix and that's what he did. He did not get creative like the Catalyst, G0-T0 or Asimov robots with his directive, he did not turn on its creators (in smaller or lesser degree) because he concluded it to be necessary to achieve his primary directive.

[BatmanTurian]

MassEffectFShep wrote...

i recently played ME1 and was really struck by a quote from vigil on ilos after shepard asks it why the reapers repeat their pattern of destruction:

"The Reapers are alien, unknowable. Perhaps they need slaves or resources. More likely, they are driven by motives and goals organic beings cannot hope to comprehend. In the end, what does it matter? Your survival depends on stopping them, not in understanding them."

word.

Javik says basically the same thing

[BatmanTurian]

IsaacShep wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

That may be, but his rigid logic and the situation of choice (of not being forced) is the same. Only the words have changed.

His logic & motivations are not like of the Architect. The cycles are very similar and visually, I've been comparing Sovereign conversation with Deus Ex Machina-Neo conversation since day 1, but the comparsions end on the cycles idea and the presentation of Sovereign and Catalyst scenes. Architect was tasked with the goal of designing the Matrix and that's what he did. He did not get creative like the Catalyst, G0-T0 or Asimov robots with his directive, he did not turn on its creators (in smaller or lesser degree) because he concluded it to be necessary to achieve his primary directive.

Yeah, going into extreme details, it's not the same. But overall, it's the same.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 13 octobre 2012 - 04:52 .

[hiraeth]

BatmanTurian wrote...

MassEffectFShep wrote...

i recently played ME1 and was really struck by a quote from vigil on ilos after shepard asks it why the reapers repeat their pattern of destruction:

"The Reapers are alien, unknowable. Perhaps they need slaves or resources. More likely, they are driven by motives and goals organic beings cannot hope to comprehend. In the end, what does it matter? Your survival depends on stopping them, not in understanding them."

word.

Javik says basically the same thing

so then why are the final moments of the game this

[shepskisaac]

BatmanTurian wrote...

Yeah, going into extreme details, it's not the same. But overall, it's the same.

No it's not. And the primary motivation is not 'an extreme detail' lol. You just want to compare it with the Architect regardless if it's a good comparsion or not

[masster blaster]

The Geth were not evil. They only wanted to protect themselves, and their
creators defending them. Honestly they were willing to die and not
cause a problem, yet when other Quarians started to get attacked they
fought back.

Yet in the end they could have killed the last of their creators, yet they didn't.

Then
when brat sees what he doesn't like, he Indoctrinated half of the Geth,
to do it's biding, and to prove it's point. How many cycles has this happened?

Is this the first cycle for Synthetics don't want to
kill their creators, or is this just one of the many cycles that has
Synthetics not wanting to fight their creators, and not wanting to cause
any problems.
Heck the Geth were waiting for their Creators to come home.

Then
we have EDI. Is she an evil Synthetic killing organics. Yes you could
say " Remember Luna", but EDI was gaining her thoughts. Does that give
an EDI a clear slate, no but she says she didn't mean to, as Shepard
didn't mean to kill 300,000 Batarians if picked Paragon Shepard action.

Also hasn't everyone one notice that the way you treat Synthetics, is the way they behave.

The
AI from ME1 on the Citadel. It's creator was selfish, and wanted money,
and because of that the AI turned on him because of the things it
learned from watching him.

Also haven't we also notice that in
ME2 some Synthetics had a virus in their systems, causing them to turn
on the crew, and everyone else.

So the way I see it. Depending on
how you treat Synthetics, is the way they will act, and depending on
what is in their system, also depends on how they act.

Modifié par masster blaster, 13 octobre 2012 - 06:22 .

[Davik Kang]

IsaacShep wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Yeah, going into extreme details, it's not the same. But overall, it's the same.

No it's not. And the primary motivation is not 'an extreme detail' lol. You just want to compare it with the Architect regardless if it's a good comparsion or not

The comparison is a good comparison, but they're not the same, for exactly the reason you stated.

EDIT: whoops I screwed up the quote here.  Hope it's clear now.

masster blaster wrote...
The Geth were not evil...

So the way I see it. Depending on how you treat Synthetics, is the way they will act, and depending on what is in their system, also depends on how they act.

You're right, but is this a counterpoint to the ReaperKid?  Because the Reaper Kid doesn't say synthetics are evil.  He just says synthetics and organics will eventually engage in full-scale war, and the synthetics will eventually win because they will become far more advanced than organics.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 13 octobre 2012 - 05:43 .

[masster blaster]

Also look at the way you treat EDI in Paragon, and Reneagde options.

Paragon Shepard gives EDI more cofidence and hope that she will one day become alive, and that is because of Shepard's good nature to EDI, yet for Reneagade Shepard you rude, and argant to EDI. Calling EDI just a machian and nothing more, not even a friends just a tool.

Look at the Geth. If you make peace with Legion in ME2, then you see Legion, and Shepard shacking hands in the Geth Consenses.

As speaking of The Geth Consenses Restrider do you have that in the top IT back bones. That could be number ten.

[BatmanTurian]

I mean the theme, cliche, storytelling device, is the same. Big Bad Puppet Master gives the Hero an impossible choice, an illusion of choice. There's been many times this has happened and it always ended badly. Hero makes choice, damn the consequences. Hero is supposed to end this cycle and Puppet Master pretends to need the Hero to make this happen (so that he can manipulate Hero into doing something against Hero's best interests) when Puppet Master could have done it by himself.

Again, going into extreme details, it's different. But the overarching situation is the same. I'm not trying to force it, I'm looking at it from a writer's perspective.

[masster blaster]

And King look at him. He is a Synthetic. The Reapers are Synthetic. And they set paths up for what they want. How are you to solve a problem that goes back billions of years, and Organics are the Synthetics puppets. We do what the Reapers want. Is he evil for harvesting cycles of Organics, and Synthetics because he wants to.

Does he take what he want, and make it his own. Does he not watch over us, and set up paths to follow, just like Shepard is doing in Control.

[Davik Kang]

masster blaster wrote...
And King look at him. He is a Synthetic. The Reapers are Synthetic. And they set paths up for what they want. How are you to solve a problem that goes back billions of years, and Organics are the Synthetics puppets. We do what the Reapers want. Is he evil for harvesting cycles of Organics, and Synthetics because he wants to.

Does he take what he want, and make it his own. Does he not watch over us, and set up paths to follow, just like Shepard is doing in Control.

Ok I think I don't understand your point then, sorry.  I was just saying that the Kid might be right, synthetics might go on to exterminate organics, irrespective of who started it, and irrespective of who is good and who is evil.  I still choose Destroy because I'd rather give organics and the new synthetics the chance to live peacefully, rather than play God and impose my will on everyone.

[paxxton]

I was thinking whether I should choose "The Choices" or "The Beam Run" in Restrider's poll (I went for the Choices) when I got an idea. What if the reason Shepard survived the laser blast is due to Harby's laser overloading? It moved quite a distance towards Shepard and the battery simply went down. lol

Modifié par paxxton, 13 octobre 2012 - 05:51 .

[masster blaster]

King, but the Catalyst made the Geth fight. He Indoctrinated half of the
Geth, and used them to fight in the battle of the Citadel. He used
Saren to find the Conduit. He used the Geth for Sovereign to open the
Citadel, while the Geth are the distraction squad.

He doesn't
care about Synthetics, or organics. In the end of ME3 he changes his mind
because of the Crucible. That one little dock just changed him from " I
am going to kill you" to " let's start over and be friends." No either
way he doesn't only harvest life, he kills it.

Look at the war
with the Reapers in this cycle. People are dying fighting the Reapers,
not being preserved. Even in Javiks cycle they are fighting to the
Death, and are the Reapers preserving them all.

No. The Catalyst turned people into husk, Banshees,Brutes,Cannibals, Maruarders, and scions/ Abominations.

In
Javiks cycle his people were turned into Collectors, and look at them
now. They are not preserved into Reaper form like the catalyst says. No
he has them as husk. So the way I see it. There is no harvest, or war.
There is only extinctions.

Modifié par masster blaster, 13 octobre 2012 - 06:21 .

[PsiMatrix]

masster blaster wrote...

Is this the first cycle for Synthetics don't want to kill their creators, or is this just one of the many cycles that has Synthetics not wanting to fight their creators, and not wanting to cause any problems.
Heck the Geth were waiting for their Creators to come home.

Javik mentions some hybrid species whose synthetics were corrupted by the Reapers and they sent their sun into nova. Before that though they must have been living somewhat at peace because he only mentions their extinction rather than their existance before.

I think that it's precisely what they do if synthetics don't behave "like they're supposed to" because then his cycle system would have no purpose. It's the kind of "stop hitting yourself" bully mentality where making someone punch themselves is some roundabout way 'their' fault because they are the ones hitting themselves despite the obvious outside intervention.

masster blaster wrote...

He doesn't care about Sythetics,
or organics. In the end of ME3 he changes his mind because of the
Curicble. That one little dock just changed him from " I am going to
kill you" to " let's start over and be friends." No either way he
doesn't only harvest life, he kills it.

And this is exactly the same throughout all the games. In the first game we see humans turned into Husks, in the second we see Protheans were turned into Collectors and in three we see the Moontrap-style end to our friends and allies, treated as nothing more than spare parts to make horrific constructs designed to kill us.

Modifié par PsiMatrix, 13 octobre 2012 - 06:04 .

[spotlessvoid]

paxxton wrote...

I was thinking whether I should choose "The Choices" or "The Beam Run" in Restrider's poll (I went for the Choices) when I got an idea. What if the reason Shepard survived the laser blast is due to Harby's laser overloading? It moved quite a distance towards Shepard and the battery simply went down. lol

No

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Recently started examining Sovereign / Nazara again to see how its quotes stack with the Catalyst. While the quotes it spew are nothing new and go against a central controller for the Reapers existence as always, i found something intresting in examining the Geths interaction with Sovereign through the conversations with Legion in ME2.

This paticular bit is interesting because the Geth touched Sovereigns mind briefly and conversed with it without beeing its enemies (at least immediate enemies) making their views of the Reapers as neutral as possible. It is some interesting bits which reinforce Sovereigns "we are each a nation, independent, free of all weakness." quote.

"Technology is not a straight line. There are many paths to the same end. Accepting anothers path blinds you to the alternatives. Nazara - Sovereign - said this itself" - Legion

A curious quote by Sovereign as it essentially implies what we face in the end with Control and Synthesis in that we are accepting anothers path. Sovereign uses this line arrogantly though as it would seem from the following sentence Legion quotes from Nazara:

"Your civilization is based upon the mass relays. Our technology. By using it, your society develops along the paths that we desire."

A repetition of what we already know and interesting when looked at comapred to the previous line. The Reapers blind us to other paths through the mass relays. Nothing new, but interesting nonetheless.

But the most interesting quote, the one that truly stands to show that a Reaper has at least some degree of free will is this:

"Nazara. That was what the programs within the Reaper called themselves."

Sovereign, Nazara, is not just a puppet going from this. It calls itself something, a name from its own programs. Off course nothing prevents this name form having been placed in it at creation, but why do such a thing with a puppet as the Catalyst implies the Reapers are to him?

Also to finish this off Legion repeats Sovereigns "Each a nation," quote as if Bioware wanted to hammer that fact into our skull.

But above all look at these past quotes about Sovereign through legion. Does Sovereign seem like something beeing controlled by something? Did it ever?

This is my own opinion but if something is controlling the Reapers then I beleive the Reapers are unaware of it, not unlike Indoctrination (which very well could be controlling them) as each of them, Harbinger and Sovereign show clear distinct signs of beeing Independent.

If they are free of all weakness is another matter

Modifié par Raistlin Majare 1992, 13 octobre 2012 - 06:26 .

[spotlessvoid]

If you think about it the you have more hope then you know line makes no sense in a literal view. Shepard should be like "yeah, I have 3 options to win. Very hopeful indeed"

Btw great job RM

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 13 octobre 2012 - 06:25 .

[paxxton]

Restrider wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Restrider wrote...

Ladies and Gentlemen, the time has come to vote on the polls!
(1&2)
The Fourth Poll is going to be  closed within 45 minutes!

I voted in your poll. You vote in mine.
http://social.biowar...66/polls/40322/

I already did. I am the lonely 2% at the bottom

Thanks for voting.