80611 réponses à ce sujet

[BansheeOwnage]

Davik Kang wrote...

Yeah makes sense.  They definitely singled out humans as the most promising species.  Good stuff.

Humans suck.

[BansheeOwnage]

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Synthesis: Saving organic life by annihilating it all together

Nah, that's too extreme an interpretation. Synthesis merely enhances life. The problem with Synthesis is that you don't really have Control over what happens when you jump into the beam. With Control you have choice. You can choose to Synthesize those who desire it, or you can fly the Reapers into a black hole.

Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?

[spotlessvoid]

Synthesis as presented in the ending is the annihilation of organic life. It no longer exists. The individuals may, but they ceased being organic. What was the inherent value in organics that required them to be saved in the first place? And why is it no longer deemed worth preserving?

[spotlessvoid]

Davik:

I meant that neither organic, synthetic, or hybrid have any inherent qualities of good or bad. It is the actions of individuals. There is nothing wrong with synthesis. It's that it is irrevocably forced upon the entire galaxy, consequences be damned, that is so atrocious

[paxxton]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Synthesis: Saving organic life by annihilating it all together

Nah, that's too extreme an interpretation. Synthesis merely enhances life. The problem with Synthesis is that you don't really have Control over what happens when you jump into the beam. With Control you have choice. You can choose to Synthesize those who desire it, or you can fly the Reapers into a black hole.

Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?

Sure. With my eyes covered.  When you go to a salad bar in Pizza Hut, you can choose whatever you like. But if you order a salad from the menu (are there any?), you are given a pre-made hodgepodge.

[Restrider]

Polls and another poll

[BansheeOwnage]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Synthesis as presented in the ending is the annihilation of organic life. It no longer exists. The individuals may, but they ceased being organic. What was the inherent value in organics that required them to be saved in the first place? And why is it no longer deemed worth preserving?

In many (or perhaps all) cases the individuals no longer exist either. They have been rewriten, and therefore killed.

[BansheeOwnage]

Restrider wrote...

Polls and another poll

DESTROY!

[Davik Kang]

spotlessvoid wrote...
Davik:

I meant that neither organic, synthetic, or hybrid have any inherent qualities of good or bad. It is the actions of individuals. There is nothing wrong with synthesis. It's that it is irrevocably forced upon the entire galaxy, consequences be damned, that is so atrocious

Yeah fair enough I agree with that.  Was just a thought I had about the implications of Synthesis.  But it is nice to post in a thread where people don't immediately grasp at anything that appears to support their own views, and instead choose to deconstruct it, irrespective of whether it supports their ideas or not.  Internet has few such people prepared to do that tbh.  Thx for explaining.

[spotlessvoid]

Btw if EDI or Legion are faced with the choices, I guarantee you they would sacrifice themselves and choose destroy

[paxxton]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Restrider wrote...

Polls and another poll

DESTROY!

I must confess that I really chose....


























...Control.

[Arashi08]

BatmanTurian wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

youtu.be/8K-g7ipAqYY


HAHAHAHAHA!

And this is so Mass Effect.

Kick his ass Aria..I mean Trinity.

Tell me that after listening to that conversation, a lot of it doesn't sound like Starbinger. Love overwhelming your common sense? Yeah, those are the people that chose synthesis and control.

"Omg, reapers murdered trillions of people. But if I destroy them, i destroy the geth and EDI. But I love the Geth and EDI. I can't destroy them too. Maybe the Reapers really do just want to make friends. They wouldn't want my friends destroyed, otherwise they wouldn't tell me it was going to happen. But they're pushing me toward this other path because they care about resolving this conflict. I also want to resolve this conflict and not let the people I love die."

Thus, the death of logic in Literalist minds. Overwhelmed by emotion, they cannot choose something logical because morality and emotion get in the way. Morality is a construct and is only useful in everyday interactions with other people. Emotion is inherently illogical.

One could argue " oh, but you're being vengeful if you choose destroy, and you're using your anger to justify killing the Reapers. And you probably didn't care about EDI and the Geth at all."

Actually, it's the other way around. Killing the Reapers, destroying them utterly, is simply justice for the species who could not stand up to them and were forced to succumb. I care about EDI and the Geth, but I know them to be logical. They possess emotions that mimmick organic emotion but they are not purely emotional beings like organics are. A Synthetic would make a cold calculation to destroy the few to save the many (in fact, this is the basis behind Reaper logic). Therefore, whether it rendered EDI and the Geth inoperable or not, they would have chosen the same path as well, even if it led to their non-funtionality because it is the one logical choice.

And of course, this doesn't even go into how Synthesis and Control feed into the player's Ego.

I may have to disagree with you a little bit, primarily about emotions being inherently illogical.  I think that in some cases, logic and emotion work well in tandem, and one even builds upon another in some instances.  For example, we logically state that murder is wrong, but is that from a purely logical standpoint or do emotional responses come into play alot in this instance?  Conversely logic also can lead to iintuitive observations, the idea of love is an example.  If you think about it, love was at least partially born from logic; our ability to observe and reason.  Otherwise reproduction would be reduced to a simple instinctive state of mating, without any real emotional attatchment behind it. 

At least that's my thought on it. Could be wrong tho.

[Restrider]

@ spot
I would say that the Geth have no individuals (except Legion after gaining full self-awareness thanks to the Reaper upgrades). There may be heretics and conservative (?) factions, yet they are organized in a system of complete consensus.

[Arashi08]

paxxton wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Synthesis: Saving organic life by annihilating it all together

Nah, that's too extreme an interpretation. Synthesis merely enhances life. The problem with Synthesis is that you don't really have Control over what happens when you jump into the beam. With Control you have choice. You can choose to Synthesize those who desire it, or you can fly the Reapers into a black hole.

Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?

Sure. With my eyes covered.  When you go to a salad bar in Pizza Hut, you can choose whatever you like. But if you order a salad from the menu (are there any?), you are given a pre-made hodgepodge.

Though to be fair, the type of salad you get from pizza hut doesn't usually determine the fate of all life in the galaxy as we know it.  

[Davik Kang]

spotlessvoid wrote...
Btw if EDI or Legion are faced with the choices, I guarantee you they would sacrifice themselves and choose destroy

Whoa... it's like a mind bending puzzle.  Like can you hear a tree falling down etc. etc.  I'm inclined to agree but I wanna give it some more thought.

[spotlessvoid]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Synthesis as presented in the ending is the annihilation of organic life. It no longer exists. The individuals may, but they ceased being organic. What was the inherent value in organics that required them to be saved in the first place? And why is it no longer deemed worth preserving?

In many (or perhaps all) cases the individuals no longer exist either. They have been rewriten, and therefore killed.

True. I was just ceding him the best case scenario and still making my point.

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 13 octobre 2012 - 09:28 .

[BansheeOwnage]

Restrider wrote...

@ spot
I would say that the Geth have no individuals (except Legion after gaining full self-awareness thanks to the Reaper upgrades). There may be heretics and conservative (?) factions, yet they are organized in a system of complete consensus.

The geth have individuals after Legion's dissemination.

[BatmanTurian]

Arashi08 wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

youtu.be/8K-g7ipAqYY


HAHAHAHAHA!

And this is so Mass Effect.

Kick his ass Aria..I mean Trinity.

Tell me that after listening to that conversation, a lot of it doesn't sound like Starbinger. Love overwhelming your common sense? Yeah, those are the people that chose synthesis and control.

"Omg, reapers murdered trillions of people. But if I destroy them, i destroy the geth and EDI. But I love the Geth and EDI. I can't destroy them too. Maybe the Reapers really do just want to make friends. They wouldn't want my friends destroyed, otherwise they wouldn't tell me it was going to happen. But they're pushing me toward this other path because they care about resolving this conflict. I also want to resolve this conflict and not let the people I love die."

Thus, the death of logic in Literalist minds. Overwhelmed by emotion, they cannot choose something logical because morality and emotion get in the way. Morality is a construct and is only useful in everyday interactions with other people. Emotion is inherently illogical.

One could argue " oh, but you're being vengeful if you choose destroy, and you're using your anger to justify killing the Reapers. And you probably didn't care about EDI and the Geth at all."

Actually, it's the other way around. Killing the Reapers, destroying them utterly, is simply justice for the species who could not stand up to them and were forced to succumb. I care about EDI and the Geth, but I know them to be logical. They possess emotions that mimmick organic emotion but they are not purely emotional beings like organics are. A Synthetic would make a cold calculation to destroy the few to save the many (in fact, this is the basis behind Reaper logic). Therefore, whether it rendered EDI and the Geth inoperable or not, they would have chosen the same path as well, even if it led to their non-funtionality because it is the one logical choice.

And of course, this doesn't even go into how Synthesis and Control feed into the player's Ego.

I may have to disagree with you a little bit, primarily about emotions being inherently illogical.  I think that in some cases, logic and emotion work well in tandem, and one even builds upon another in some instances.  For example, we logically state that murder is wrong, but is that from a purely logical standpoint or do emotional responses come into play alot in this instance?  Conversely logic also can lead to iintuitive observations, the idea of love is an example.  If you think about it, love was at least partially born from logic; our ability to observe and reason.  Otherwise reproduction would be reduced to a simple instinctive state of mating, without any real emotional attatchment behind it. 

At least that's my thought on it. Could be wrong tho.

Strong emotions lead to illogical conclusions, is perhaps how I should have phrased it. Obviously, we all care about EDI and the Geth and we have an attachment to them. That is a strong emotion one has to push down to reach a more logical conclusion

While, yes, emotions are critical in some decisions, when it comes to a monumental decision like this at the end of Mass Effect 3, emotional considerations should be held back and compartmentalized. Obviously, some people have a problem with this.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 13 octobre 2012 - 09:33 .

[Restrider]

paxxton wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Restrider wrote...

Polls and another poll

DESTROY!

I must confess that I really chose....

...Control.

I have to confess, after reloading my Refuse run, being kind of disappointed, I also chose Control. At first I knew something fishy was up and I did not trust the Guardian that's why I refused. I though I'd be indoctrinated if I chose one of those three options regardless.
Wouldn't it be obvious for the Reapers to show what you want, appeal to your inner needs (let it be the lust for power (=Control), appealing to your search for harmony and a Jesus-complex combined with transhumanist agenda (=Synthesis) or your need for revenge and your hatred (=Destroy)) and thus get a foothold in your mind and indoctrinate you? That's what I thought at first and concluded that only rejecting the Reaper's logic would be the way to go. Well, we know what happens then...
Anyway, after that I chose Control to satisfy my lust for power (Renegon Femshep) and hoping to be able to overrule all those indecisive politicians and what not...

[paxxton]

Arashi08 wrote...

paxxton wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

paxxton wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Synthesis: Saving organic life by annihilating it all together

Nah, that's too extreme an interpretation. Synthesis merely enhances life. The problem with Synthesis is that you don't really have Control over what happens when you jump into the beam. With Control you have choice. You can choose to Synthesize those who desire it, or you can fly the Reapers into a black hole.

Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?

Sure. With my eyes covered.  When you go to a salad bar in Pizza Hut, you can choose whatever you like. But if you order a salad from the menu (are there any?), you are given a pre-made hodgepodge.

Though to be fair, the type of salad you get from pizza hut doesn't usually determine the fate of all life in the galaxy as we know it.  

LOL. I know. It's an analogy. With Control, just like with access to a salad bar, you have choice. Without choice we might as well eat pizza exclusively. Nothing against that but diversity is good for your stomach.

Modifié par paxxton, 13 octobre 2012 - 09:48 .

[spotlessvoid]

Emotions are instinctive. They are not rational. That doesn't mean they aren't based off a form of logic. Just don't confuse functionally logical and cognitively rational.

The human brain is not one indistinguishable organ, it is a complex system comprised of vastly differing components. They are generally classified into three sections, commonly referred to as the R Complex, the Mammalian Brain, and the Neocortex. The survival mechanism you refer to originates in the R Complex and is further amplified by the chemical processes produced by the Mammalian center, known as emotions.
What makes the Neocortex so different is that it has no such mechanism. It's function is strictly cognitive, and though it operates in conjunction with the survival instincts of our lower brain, it is not it's source.
As I'm sure you well understand evolutionary theory, it will suffice to say that the natural evolutionary process favors survival, as such a naturally occurring organic brain cannot come into existence without first developing all the requisite non cognitive functions required to keep the biological organism alive. Nevertheless, the Neocortex shows that organic brain function need not be defined as survival oriented or inherently irrational. In fact, the Neocortex operates in a manner much more similar to a desktop computer than say the limbic system.

It is erroneous to assign chemical processes developed out of evolutionary necessity as intrinsically organic and although these attributes cannot be ignored when comparing a human brain to an artificial one, they are not prerequisites when discussing the technical advantages of organic vs synthetic
For example, if one were to replace all but the gray matter with synthetic systems, such a system would be free of any involuntary neural activity negatively impacting accuracy in favor of efficacy. Yet the cognitive organ would remain wholly organic. Conversely, a synthetic cognitive system added on to an organic human lower brain would remain cognitively synthetic but would be susceptible to all the problems presented by the biological instinct for survival. It is the involuntary nature of these instincts that creates such a conflicting, tumultuous mental life for we humans.
It seems that emotional response is what is typically associated with an organic mind, while synthetic minds are imagined as devoid of such processes. The implications this has on the fundamentally human trait of empathy is, in my opinion, at the source of the fear many have of artificial intelligence, however that is a complex topic best left for another day.

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 13 octobre 2012 - 09:35 .

[BansheeOwnage]

Davik Kang wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...
Btw if EDI or Legion are faced with the choices, I guarantee you they would sacrifice themselves and choose destroy

Whoa... it's like a mind bending puzzle.  Like can you hear a tree falling down etc. etc.  I'm inclined to agree but I wanna give it some more thought.

Allow me to accelerate your thought processes.

[paxxton]

Restrider wrote...

paxxton wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Restrider wrote...

Polls and another poll

DESTROY!

I must confess that I really chose....

...Control.

I have to confess, after reloading my Refuse run, being kind of disappointed, I also chose Control. At first I knew something fishy was up and I did not trust the Guardian that's why I refused. I though I'd be indoctrinated if I chose one of those three options regardless.
Wouldn't it be obvious for the Reapers to show what you want, appeal to your inner needs (let it be the lust for power (=Control), appealing to your search for harmony and a Jesus-complex combined with transhumanist agenda (=Synthesis) or your need for revenge and your hatred (=Destroy)) and thus get a foothold in your mind and indoctrinate you? That's what I thought at first and concluded that only rejecting the Reaper's logic would be the way to go. Well, we know what happens then...
Anyway, after that I chose Control to satisfy my lust for power (Renegon Femshep) and hoping to be able to overrule all those indecisive politicians and what not...

Welcome to the club. Btw, when did you finish ME3 for the first time?

[BatmanTurian]

spotlessvoid wrote...


Emotions are instinctive. They are not rational. That doesn't mean they aren't based off a form of logic. Just don't confuse functionally logical and cognitively rational.

The human brain is not one indistinguishable organ, it is a complex system comprised of vastly differing components. They are generally classified into three sections, commonly referred to as the R Complex, the Mammalian Brain, and the Neocortex. The survival mechanism you refer to originates in the R Complex and is further amplified by the chemical processes produced by the Mammalian center, known as emotions.
What makes the Neocortex so different is that it has no such mechanism. It's function is strictly cognitive, and though it operates in conjunction with the survival instincts of our lower brain, it is not it's source.
As I'm sure you well understand evolutionary theory, it will suffice to say that the natural evolutionary process favors survival, as such a naturally occurring organic brain cannot come into existence without first developing all the requisite non cognitive functions required to keep the biological organism alive. Nevertheless, the Neocortex shows that organic brain function need not be defined as survival oriented or inherently irrational. In fact, the Neocortex operates in a manner much more similar to a desktop computer than say the limbic system.

It is erroneous to assign chemical processes developed out of evolutionary necessity as intrinsically organic and although these attributes cannot be ignored when comparing a human brain to an artificial one, they are not prerequisites when discussing the technical advantages of organic vs synthetic
For example, if one were to replace all but the gray matter with synthetic systems, such a system would be free of any involuntary neural activity negatively impacting accuracy in favor of efficacy. Yet the cognitive organ would remain wholly organic. Conversely, a synthetic cognitive system added on to an organic human lower brain would remain cognitively synthetic but would be susceptible to all the problems presented by the biological instinct for survival. It is the involuntary nature of these instincts that creates such a conflicting, tumultuous mental life for we humans.
It seems that emotional response is what is typically associated with an organic mind, while synthetic minds are imagined as devoid of such processes. The implications this has on the fundamentally human trait of empathy is, in my opinion, at the source of the fear many have of artificial intelligence, however that is a complex topic best left for another day.

Interesting...

[Restrider]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Restrider wrote...

@ spot
I would say that the Geth have no individuals (except Legion after gaining full self-awareness thanks to the Reaper upgrades). There may be heretics and conservative (?) factions, yet they are organized in a system of complete consensus.

The geth have individuals after Legion's dissemination.

Are you sure? Could you link me a video/source? I really am not sure about that.
If I recall correct Legion Prime refers to itself still as we. Though in the dialogue I am referring to that could easily mean the Geth as a whole...
Edit: You know why...

Modifié par Restrider, 13 octobre 2012 - 09:37 .