80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Davik Kang]

spotlessvoid wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Synthesis as presented in the ending is the annihilation of organic life. It no longer exists. The individuals may, but they ceased being organic. What was the inherent value in organics that required them to be saved in the first place? And why is it no longer deemed worth preserving?

In many (or perhaps all) cases the individuals no longer exist either. They have been rewriten, and therefore killed.

True. I was just ceding him the best case scenario and still making my point.

Did they cease being organic though?  They're still partly organic.  So they have been preserved in a way, just not how they originally were.

Btw about the Matrix analogy, Neo's choice does seem most simlar to Refuse.  It's different in that he is specifically trying to save someone who will otherwise die, and also in that he belives in himself that he has the means to stop the Reapers/The Machines/Smith.  But it is also risking the lives of everyone for the sake of a moral quest.  Although only 23 would survive if he conceded to the Architect.

Does anyone think the StarKid was a response to the Matrix by Bioware, by making an apparently weaker and more sympathetic appearance for the Kid (as opposed to an extremely evil-looking and unnecessarily wordy bearded man)?  Perhaps they felt that the Matrix choice was undermined by the impression of the Architect.  E.g. would the scene have been different if the Oracle had presented the same choices?  (Without using vis a vis, inexorably, systemic anomaly, etc. etc.)

[Restrider]

paxxton wrote...

Restrider wrote...

paxxton wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Restrider wrote...

Polls and another poll

DESTROY!

I must confess that I really chose....

...Control.

I have to confess, after reloading my Refuse run, being kind of disappointed, I also chose Control. At first I knew something fishy was up and I did not trust the Guardian that's why I refused. I though I'd be indoctrinated if I chose one of those three options regardless.
Wouldn't it be obvious for the Reapers to show what you want, appeal to your inner needs (let it be the lust for power (=Control), appealing to your search for harmony and a Jesus-complex combined with transhumanist agenda (=Synthesis) or your need for revenge and your hatred (=Destroy)) and thus get a foothold in your mind and indoctrinate you? That's what I thought at first and concluded that only rejecting the Reaper's logic would be the way to go. Well, we know what happens then...
Anyway, after that I chose Control to satisfy my lust for power (Renegon Femshep) and hoping to be able to overrule all those indecisive politicians and what not...

Welcome to the club. Btw, when did you finish ME3 for the first time?

The middle of august.

Modifié par Restrider, 13 octobre 2012 - 09:42 .

[BatmanTurian]

Davik Kang wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Synthesis as presented in the ending is the annihilation of organic life. It no longer exists. The individuals may, but they ceased being organic. What was the inherent value in organics that required them to be saved in the first place? And why is it no longer deemed worth preserving?

In many (or perhaps all) cases the individuals no longer exist either. They have been rewriten, and therefore killed.

True. I was just ceding him the best case scenario and still making my point.

Did they cease being organic though?  They're still partly organic.  So they have been preserved in a way, just not how they originally were.

Btw about the Matrix analogy, Neo's choice does seem most simlar to Refuse.  It's different in that he is specifically trying to save someone who will otherwise die, and also in that he belives in himself that he has the means to stop the Reapers/The Machines/Smith.  But it is also risking the lives of everyone for the sake of a moral quest.  Although only 23 would survive if he conceded to the Architect.

Does anyone think the StarKid was a response to the Matrix by Bioware, by making an apparently weaker and more sympathetic appearance for the Kid (as opposed to an extremely evil-looking and unnecessarily wordy bearded man)?  Perhaps they felt that the Matrix choice was undermined by the impression of the Architect.  E.g. would the scene have been different if the Oracle had presented the same choices?  (Without using vis a vis, inexorably, systemic anomaly, etc. etc.)

I agree on both counts. Neo's choice is Refuse. But Bioware hasn't given us (or won't give us) a satisfying consequence for that choice, for rebelling and finding another way, which is what Neo and Shepard do (nevermind the ending of the third matrix movie, which is synthesis).

And of course, starboy is supposed to let down our guard. How else would they have manipulated practically entire nations of players? Pretty smart move, actually.

[Lyria]

So Ive been thinking, a dangerous act I'm sure, about the floating city at the end of control. What is it? I think it's a warning. You notice through the ending how EDIs voice over talks about how they are all connected and at the end these see a floating vessel. Could it be a neo-rEAper? A platform? Makes me want to stick with Destroy more.

[spotlessvoid]

Neo wants to destroy the matrix

[Davik Kang]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...
Btw if EDI or Legion are faced with the choices, I guarantee you they would sacrifice themselves and choose destroy

Whoa... it's like a mind bending puzzle.  Like can you hear a tree falling down etc. etc.  I'm inclined to agree but I wanna give it some more thought.

Allow me to accelerate your thought processes.

Errr ok, but in that link he says "Today, the Geth fight to secure our future..." so they wouldn't pick Destroy.  This is the opposite of what spotless said.  Perhaps you do think that?

[paxxton]

Restrider wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Welcome to the club. Btw, when did you finish ME3 for the first time?

The middle of august.

That's almost half a year after release. How did you manage?

Modifié par paxxton, 13 octobre 2012 - 09:46 .

[BatmanTurian]

God, I'm finding myself agreeing with everything Spoony is saying about ME3. I guess that's good, right?

[BatmanTurian]

Davik Kang wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...
Btw if EDI or Legion are faced with the choices, I guarantee you they would sacrifice themselves and choose destroy

Whoa... it's like a mind bending puzzle.  Like can you hear a tree falling down etc. etc.  I'm inclined to agree but I wanna give it some more thought.

Allow me to accelerate your thought processes.

Errr ok, but in that link he says "Today, the Geth fight to secure our future..." so they wouldn't pick Destroy.  This is the opposite of what spotless said.  Perhaps you do think that?

Fighting is destroying. It's not enslaving your enemy or making nice.

[BatmanTurian]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Neo wants to destroy the matrix

But he makes it so those who don't want to leave don't have to leave. it's the equvalent.

[Davik Kang]

spotlessvoid wrote...
Neo wants to destroy the matrix

True, it's not so simple as to be a direct analogy.  And

[MATRIX SPOILER ALERT] 

he does succeed in saving more than 23 people, though not Trinity ultimately.

But the actual consequences of the choice shouldn't be taken into account when looking at the choice itself.  Still, yeah, it's not straight up Neo chooses Refuse.  He chooses Destroy/Refuse I guess (though such a choice in ME3 would have been disappointingly simple and overwhelmingly popular.)

[Arashi08]

spotlessvoid wrote...


Emotions are instinctive. They are not rational. That doesn't mean they aren't based off a form of logic. Just don't confuse functionally logical and cognitively rational.

The human brain is not one indistinguishable organ, it is a complex system comprised of vastly differing components. They are generally classified into three sections, commonly referred to as the R Complex, the Mammalian Brain, and the Neocortex. The survival mechanism you refer to originates in the R Complex and is further amplified by the chemical processes produced by the Mammalian center, known as emotions.
What makes the Neocortex so different is that it has no such mechanism. It's function is strictly cognitive, and though it operates in conjunction with the survival instincts of our lower brain, it is not it's source.
As I'm sure you well understand evolutionary theory, it will suffice to say that the natural evolutionary process favors survival, as such a naturally occurring organic brain cannot come into existence without first developing all the requisite non cognitive functions required to keep the biological organism alive. Nevertheless, the Neocortex shows that organic brain function need not be defined as survival oriented or inherently irrational. In fact, the Neocortex operates in a manner much more similar to a desktop computer than say the limbic system.

It is erroneous to assign chemical processes developed out of evolutionary necessity as intrinsically organic and although these attributes cannot be ignored when comparing a human brain to an artificial one, they are not prerequisites when discussing the technical advantages of organic vs synthetic
For example, if one were to replace all but the gray matter with synthetic systems, such a system would be free of any involuntary neural activity negatively impacting accuracy in favor of efficacy. Yet the cognitive organ would remain wholly organic. Conversely, a synthetic cognitive system added on to an organic human lower brain would remain cognitively synthetic but would be susceptible to all the problems presented by the biological instinct for survival. It is the involuntary nature of these instincts that creates such a conflicting, tumultuous mental life for we humans.
It seems that emotional response is what is typically associated with an organic mind, while synthetic minds are imagined as devoid of such processes. The implications this has on the fundamentally human trait of empathy is, in my opinion, at the source of the fear many have of artificial intelligence, however that is a complex topic best left for another day.

Wow, very astute, not to mention impressive.  It looks like you took that from your doctoral thesis lol.  I think it definitely adds a new perspective on our assumptions about our own organic minds and our preceived notions of how a synthetic mind is supposed to work.
It's funny how we can break down certain specific areas of our brains and how we expect they function based on our observations, and yet we still don't fully understand how our own brains work lol.

[Davik Kang]

BatmanTurian wrote...
Fighting is destroying. It's not enslaving your enemy or making nice.

The Geth will die.  Destroy is not compatible with his primary desire to save the Geth.

[BatmanTurian]

Davik Kang wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
Fighting is destroying. It's not enslaving your enemy or making nice.

The Geth will die.  Destroy is not compatible with his primary desire to save the Geth.

The geth are programs. They are not the platforms they exist on.

[BansheeOwnage]

Davik Kang wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...
Btw if EDI or Legion are faced with the choices, I guarantee you they would sacrifice themselves and choose destroy

Whoa... it's like a mind bending puzzle.  Like can you hear a tree falling down etc. etc.  I'm inclined to agree but I wanna give it some more thought.

Allow me to accelerate your thought processes.

Errr ok, but in that link he says "Today, the Geth fight to secure our future..." so they wouldn't pick Destroy.  This is the opposite of what spotless said.  Perhaps you do think that?

"There will be no more compromise with the old machines."

Control and synthesis are compromise with the reapers. They survive in both of them too. The Prime said they would fight for their future, and destroy is the only one where you fight. Regardless of that, the Prime is speaking from the premise that they will win. Very normal.

[plfranke]

Why do people care so much about a female turian? Seriously, that's one of my last concerns for the Omega dlc. Most likely though, Omega will consist of female turians, volus and a sex scene with Aria. What will be missing is Harbinger, Collectors and any motive to actually be taking back Omega.

[paxxton]

plfranke wrote...

Why do people care so much about a female turian? Seriously, that's one of my last concerns for the Omega dlc. Most likely though, Omega will consist of female turians, volus and a sex scene with Aria. What will be missing is Harbinger, Collectors and any motive to actually be taking back Omega.

Don't be silly, Harbinger and the Collectors will undoubtedly appear in Omega.

[Davik Kang]

BatmanTurian wrote...
The geth are programs. They are not the platforms they exist on.

So?

BansheeOwnage wrote...
"There will be no more compromise with the old machines."

Control and synthesis are compromise with the reapers. They survive in both of them too. The Prime said they would fight for their future, and destroy is the only one where you fight. Regardless of that, the Prime is speaking from the premise that they will win. Very normal.

No he's not, he's saying he'll fight to secure the survival of the Geth.  Just because Syn and Con are incompatible with what he said doesn't mean Destroy is therefore compatible.  Destroy kills the Geth.  It quite blatantly goes against his goal to secure the Geth's future.  Unless you're going to say that any synthetics built after the ending are somehow also Geth.

[Restrider]

paxxton wrote...

Restrider wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Welcome to the club. Btw, when did you finish ME3 for the first time?

The middle of august.

That's almost half a year after release. How did you manage?

I was sent to attend to a joint-venture in a research facility in Bordeaux (nice town btw) for 3 months (starting in april of this year). For that reason I bought ME2 (and purchased later ME1 on Steam, since I did not want to have SECUROM shenanigans) to have something to entertain myself (especially the first two weeks without internet). After my return I had vacation and then bought ME3.

[spotlessvoid]

Thanks Arashi and BT. But that was a response to the awesome SimonSays breaking down what synthesis means. We were both pointing out what differentiates the two. He was saying organic = efficacy because of the need for survival, and that synthetic favors accuracy. I was merely countering that the human brain is comprised of both yet is not entirely inextricably linked to either

[estebanus]

lol, I just got both the volus engineer and adept in one PSP.

Anyways, what's up?

[paxxton]

Restrider wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Restrider wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Welcome to the club. Btw, when did you finish ME3 for the first time?

The middle of august.

That's almost half a year after release. How did you manage?

I was sent to attend to a joint-venture in a research facility in Bordeaux (nice town btw) for 3 months (starting in april of this year). For that reason I bought ME2 (and purchased later ME1 on Steam, since I did not want to have SECUROM shenanigans) to have something to entertain myself (especially the first two weeks without internet). After my return I had vacation and then bought ME3.

That's cool. But no Internet access sucks.

So you're actually very new to Mass Effect.

[paxxton]

estebanus wrote...

lol, I just got both the volus engineer and adept in one PSP.

Anyways, what's up?

pizza and salads

[BatmanTurian]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Thanks Arashi and BT. But that was a response to the awesome SimonSays breaking down what synthesis means. We were both pointing out what differentiates the two. He was saying organic = efficacy because of the need for survival, and that synthetic favors accuracy. I was merely countering that the human brain is comprised of both yet is not entirely inextricably linked to either

Agreed.

[BatmanTurian]

Davik Kang wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...
The geth are programs. They are not the platforms they exist on.

So?

They expect to live on even if their platforms are destroyed, because there are entire servers full of identical geth programs. they did not become fully actualized until Legion sent out the Reaper code (which, again, is foreshadowing Synthesis as someone else pointed out). Even then, they still spoke as if a collective that chose decisions democratically and, as spotless said, they did not expect to be casualties of the war.

Saying all that, Control and Synthesis are the compromise they speak of. Control is what the Reapers were doing to the Heretic Geth. Synthesis is the jump of technology down a path the Reapers choose for organics that the Geth were trying to divorce themselves from.

Thus, logically, destroy is the only choice since refuse simply means doing nothing, which is also always a choice in every situation.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 13 octobre 2012 - 10:11 .