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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!

Débuté par byne , juil. 30 2012 07:09

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#34476
Xilizhra
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 01:53

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SwobyJ wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Control: An AI clone of myself oversees and controls the Reapers.

Synthesis: The entire galaxy has been genetically synthesized with the Reapers.

..... what moral paths? They're certainly not ETHICAL, at least.

They have their own ethical possibilities, particularly for avoiding genocide.


We have absolutely no assurance that those endings avoid genocide. In fact, Mass Effect's narrative seems to continuously communicate that the universe 'loves diversity' and conflict and genocide will occur no matter what any one person does.

It's like you see the ending in a sort of bubble, unaffected by what everything else tells you.

Control is possible, but not here. Even if its a dream, TIM controlled you, so why do you think the Reapers can't?
Synthesis is already happening, and jump starting the galaxy in such a destructive (imo) manner is hugely dangerous. Even the mass relays were the Reapers manipulating organics, NOT a proper way to develop along more ideal technological lines.

Again, false choice. IMO this is Bioware's 'artistic integrity'. The end choice IS the final boss, which is why they can't be prescriptive about ending interpretations until they actually get the relevant in-game content out as DLC or a game, etc.

Again, all fine and good until you start dictating terms in my universe. Bioware has not done so, and indeed has said that it wants people to be allowed to choose their own interpretations. I hope this trend continues, and can't comprehend how you'd be harmed if it does.

#34477
401 Kill
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 01:53

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 Shepard: "So, The Illusive Man was right after all."
Child: "Correct, but he could have never taken control, because we already controlled him."

Shepard cannot control the Reapers because just before that TIM was controlling Shepard and made Shepard shoot Anderson. If TIM controlled Shepard, and the Reapers controlled TIM than effectively, the Reapers controlled Shepard. (Or they are at least trying to but Shepard is resisting) Now, knowing this can there be any logical reason as to how Shepard can now control the Reapers. And it sure as hell better not be "Because the Catalyst aka the creator and leader of the Reapers said so". It is not possible, you cannot control the Reapers.

Modifié par 401 Kill, 15 octobre 2012 - 01:55 .

#34478
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 01:53

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V-rcingetorix wrote...

Ethics? In war? Yeah, they exist. But they degrade to a degree, as exemplified by a books eries kindly introduced to me here: The Lost Fleet. Thank you for that enjoyable read.

Control seems to be paragon, because of the least amount of life lost; however, it is TIM's choice (renegade figure), and is the solution voted "most likely to fail."

Destroy is the simplest; and the one endorsed by Anderson (paragon figure). EDI and the Geth both state they are willing to terminate their existence to end the Reaper threat. Taking them at their word is not renegade, but killing a majority of the synthetic races does seem renegade to me. Or, it can be compared as a Ashley/Kaiden scenario, risk failure or take a certain victory that kills a friend?

Synthesis...not trusting that. At. All. Reapers suggested it, even though the Geth/Quarians seem to be moving in that direction already, why? Reapers have displayed only aggression; deceptive aggression in their "sleeper agents," literal assault in their attacks via the Collectors, Sovereign and their own invasion, and no morals whatsoever, in their Indoctrination preference. Who would trust an amoral individual?


Yeah Synthesis isn't bad. Reaper code itself isn't bad. IMO this is as far from a organic/synthetic conflict as we can see, even if the Leviathans, in their arrogant hubris, believed it to be that.


It's that for billions of years, Reaper 'synthesis' has clearly been either huskification, indoctrination (nanides), or full genetic rewrite in the most grotesque manner.

That + possiblility that the ending is a dream manipulation = NONONONONONONO

#34479
spotlessvoid
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 01:54

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Home Run...
I'd be somewhat okay with no reveal DLC/expansion if there are some serious hints that are definitively clear to anybody actually willing to see.

#34480
spotlessvoid
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 01:56

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" Again, all fine and good until you start dictating terms in my universe. Bioware has not done so, and indeed has said that it wants people to be allowed to choose their own interpretations. Ihope this trend continues, and can't comprehend how you'd be harmed if it does."


Over and over and over and over and over and over and over...We got it. Nobody should disprove your head canon.

#34481
Hrothdane
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 01:59

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The good old "is-ought problem" rears its head again.

Do I think that IT as it was implemented OUGHT to be the ending? Not really. BioWare could have been a little less obtuse about it. At least two "win" options would be better.

Do I think IT IS the ending? Absolutely. From the way the story was told, we do not get multiple win options because only one gets the breath scene.

Don't assume that just because someone says something is true that they are throwing their full support behind it. If I insist that EA won't greenlight any more non-multiplayer games, that does not mean that I necessarily think such a course of action is perfect, ideal, good, or even well-advised.

#34482
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:01

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Home run MF wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

byne wrote...

I really dont get why you're so obsessed with assigning specific morality to any of the ending choices.

Are we pretending that one of the main reasons IT exists is not the fact that its supporters consider Destroy as the best morally ending and are inclined towards Paragon choices? I mean, it ain't really any accusation, just observation. However, the problems start when one side wants the other choice(s) to be the lesser/worse/wrong one

I'm a renegade player myself and I don't consider IT a way out for paragons but a good mind trick, and I particularly don't care what other people do (it's their game and Shepard) but sometimes I'm rather annoyed by trolls that make fun of IT and they don't even bother reading the OP. I just like ME and the people in this thread.

Also I don't mind if they never release a "Revelation" DLC, but this is just my opinion. 


Bioware made the ending seem like a total battle between renegade and paragon, and thusly gave the green ending to escape this choice, a digital paradise.

But, if I'm right, the ending is the opposite of that. It's an illusion. There is no grand moral debate between paragon and renegade here, because Destroy is NOT Renegade in itself, and Control is NOT Paragon at all..

Paragon and Renegade (with the exception of one iOS game I believe) are exclusively SHEPARD'S morality scale ranges.

Destory and Control and Synthesis are Reaper tools. The red laser that wrecks planets and fleets, the blue indoctrination and huskification, the green genetic tampering.

Shepard can't take control of others. He INSPIRES them, whether through renegade toughness, or paragon empathy.

Shepard can't have synthesis between organics and synthetics. He INSPIRES them to find common ground, with the help of allies. Even the geth rewrite of ME2 was of the heratics, not of the geth consensus itself.

Shepard can only make use of the Reapers' ability to Destroy. The Collector Rifle, Thanix Cannon, EDI onto a weaponised ship, and so on. Everything else is to fall to corruption into the Reaper mindset.

One that is based on organic corruption itself. See: Leviathans.

#34483
Hrothdane
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:01

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The universe is BioWare's. Your Shepard is yours.

#34484
Xilizhra
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:02

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Hrothdane wrote...

The universe is BioWare's. Your Shepard is yours.

As of now, the universe allows for both of our Shepards to succeed. I hope this continues.

#34485
V-rcingetorix
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:02

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No headcanon required for ME1 or ME2. Oldest trick in the book, all teachers know this one.

"I left the conclusion half blank, so the reader could come up with their own interpretation."
or
"I left out that part in my explanation, so I can tell if the students were really studying."

I'm sorry if I'm cynical, but the only time I've ever seen someone say the equivalent to "making it a free choice," it's because they messed up. Fine, don't change the ending, but make a DLC to make ME3 equal to ME1 and ME2.

#34486
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:02

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ZerebusPrime wrote...

Woot!  After much slogging, I finally got the Combat Mastery achievement and the Dog of War tag!  .... oh.  Indoctrination thread.  Whoops.  Shifting gears...  um......

SwobyJ wrote...


All it is, is resisting the Reapers til the end. Of the game.

Mass Effect's story isn't done yet, I'm almost completely sure.


This bears notice.  The end of Mass Effect 3 is the ending only because we ran out of game.

The nonending endings feel very much like the setup for something else.  Is Shepard going to be in that something else?  Possibly, but maybe not in the way we'd expect.


Yes. Mass Effect 3 is the end of Shepard's story, not Mass Effect.

Mass Effect can go in soo many other directions now, amazing directions, awesome directions.

And not 'green squggly lines on people's skin' and 'SHEPARD-AI-GOD-BOW-DOWN' awesome either.

#34487
Home run MF
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:02

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Home Run...
I'd be somewhat okay with no reveal DLC/expansion if there are some serious hints that are definitively clear to anybody actually willing to see.


Like Leviathan?  Subtly debunking the Child conversation is a beginning.

#34488
spotlessvoid
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:03

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Wanted to cure the genophage and save Mordin...but Bioware dictated terms in my universe. Wanted to make the geth become real boys (actually not really) and wanted to save Legion..but Bioware dictated terms in my universe. Wanted to leave Kaidan and Ashley....but Bioware dictated terms in my universe. I could really go on for a while. You can take the EC as final if content you don't like is released. Bioware has to dictate terms at some point to continue the franchise

#34489
Xilizhra
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:04

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Wanted to cure the genophage and save Mordin...but Bioware dictated terms in my universe. Wanted to make the geth become real boys (actually not really) and wanted to save Legion..but Bioware dictated terms in my universe. Wanted to leave Kaidan and Ashley....but Bioware dictated terms in my universe. I could really go on for a while. You can take the EC as final if content you don't like is released. Bioware has to dictate terms at some point to continue the franchise

Bioware has dictated sufficient terms to continue the franchise already.

#34490
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:07

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Xilizhra wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Control: An AI clone of myself oversees and controls the Reapers.

Synthesis: The entire galaxy has been genetically synthesized with the Reapers.

..... what moral paths? They're certainly not ETHICAL, at least.

They have their own ethical possibilities, particularly for avoiding genocide.


We have absolutely no assurance that those endings avoid genocide. In fact, Mass Effect's narrative seems to continuously communicate that the universe 'loves diversity' and conflict and genocide will occur no matter what any one person does.

It's like you see the ending in a sort of bubble, unaffected by what everything else tells you.

Control is possible, but not here. Even if its a dream, TIM controlled you, so why do you think the Reapers can't?
Synthesis is already happening, and jump starting the galaxy in such a destructive (imo) manner is hugely dangerous. Even the mass relays were the Reapers manipulating organics, NOT a proper way to develop along more ideal technological lines.

Again, false choice. IMO this is Bioware's 'artistic integrity'. The end choice IS the final boss, which is why they can't be prescriptive about ending interpretations until they actually get the relevant in-game content out as DLC or a game, etc.

Again, all fine and good until you start dictating terms in my universe. Bioware has not done so, and indeed has said that it wants people to be allowed to choose their own interpretations. I hope this trend continues, and can't comprehend how you'd be harmed if it does.


The thing is, if I'm right (omgz speculations), the interpretations will end. Probably in 2013.

So you have your base game of ME3, sure, where you can believe what you want to believe. That's Bioware's meaning with it.

But the series itself, and its lore, may very well continue down IT lines. Won't be up for interpretation then, unless you want to ignore the rest of the main canon storyline that continues.

So you're free to keep doing what you're doing, but keep very much in mind that it isn't your universe. Even with interpretations. It's Bioware's. And they made the ending as it is, for a REASON.

#34491
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:08

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401 Kill wrote...

 Shepard: "So, The Illusive Man was right after all."
Child: "Correct, but he could have never taken control, because we already controlled him."

Shepard cannot control the Reapers because just before that TIM was controlling Shepard and made Shepard shoot Anderson. If TIM controlled Shepard, and the Reapers controlled TIM than effectively, the Reapers controlled Shepard. (Or they are at least trying to but Shepard is resisting) Now, knowing this can there be any logical reason as to how Shepard can now control the Reapers. And it sure as hell better not be "Because the Catalyst aka the creator and leader of the Reapers said so". It is not possible, you cannot control the Reapers.


Oh, I'm sure you can control the Reapers.

...with billions of years of organic evolution.

Which humanity doesn't have. And even the Leviathans were ganked.

SO DON'T PICK CONTROL :mellow:

#34492
401 Kill
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:08

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Home run MF wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Home Run...
I'd be somewhat okay with no reveal DLC/expansion if there are some serious hints that are definitively clear to anybody actually willing to see.


Like Leviathan?  Subtly debunking the Child conversation is a beginning.

Leviathan was a *dead-ringer* for Indoctrination influencing the end-sequence. Sadly, some people can't see this. If When Omega drops another major hint for Indoctrination, people who refuse to acknowledge IT will view it as a "coincidence". That sure will be a lot of "coincidences", huh?

#34493
Xilizhra
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:08

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So you're free to keep doing what you're doing, but keep very much in mind that it isn't your universe. Even with interpretations. It's Bioware's. And they made the ending as it is, for a REASON.

And that reason, objectively speaking, does not speak of IT. With luck, it never will, but that won't stop you from keeping your own interpretation for your own universe. I'm not entirely sure what that doesn't satisfy you.

#34494
spotlessvoid
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:09

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Xilizhra wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Wanted to cure the genophage and save Mordin...but Bioware dictated terms in my universe. Wanted to make the geth become real boys (actually not really) and wanted to save Legion..but Bioware dictated terms in my universe. Wanted to leave Kaidan and Ashley....but Bioware dictated terms in my universe. I could really go on for a while. You can take the EC as final if content you don't like is released. Bioware has to dictate terms at some point to continue the franchise

Bioware has dictated sufficient terms to continue the franchise already.


Ah. So it's your terms that count

#34495
spotlessvoid
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:09

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Xilizhra wrote...

So you're free to keep doing what you're doing, but keep very much in mind that it isn't your universe. Even with interpretations. It's Bioware's. And they made the ending as it is, for a REASON.

And that reason, objectively speaking, does not speak of IT. With luck, it never will, but that won't stop you from keeping your own interpretation for your own universe. I'm not entirely sure what that doesn't satisfy you.

Why are you here

#34496
Andromidius
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:11

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Destroy certain isn't the easy way out, but in a way its similar to a leg that's been completely infected with gangrene (note to self: looking at the wiki article to check the spelling my result in loss of appetite).

Destroy is making the hard decision to cut off the limb to save the rest of the body (killing the Geth/EDI).

Control is using experimental medicine that might not even work, risking death (trusting that Starbinger isn't lying and hoping the solution works even though it may lead to the Reapers still reaping).

Synthesis is taking hallucinative drugs and pretending the problem doesn't exist (need I explain it?).

Sorry, but the treatment for a massive infection is amputation. Do it and move on.

#34497
ThisOneIsPunny
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:12

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 I see how it is Xil, I see how it is.
I walk this lonely road, the only road that I have ever known.. :(

#34498
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:12

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Home Run...
I'd be somewhat okay with no reveal DLC/expansion if there are some serious hints that are definitively clear to anybody actually willing to see.


Me too. And it may very well be what they're doing.

Endings stay the same, possibly with some extra shots (will War Asset free DLC actually happen?) and lines, especially with the Catalyst, blowing holes through his logic even more.

But nothing super changes in the plot, and Shepard still just gets his breath shot.

And I'd be ok with that, as long as each of the DLC 'puzzle pieces' make things 90% obvious to anyone paying any attention to the story.

ME2 20% (can Shepard be indoctrinated?)
Arrival: 30% (IS Shepard indoctrinated?)
ME3 demo (with child and start of speculations): 40%
ME3: 50% (Indoctrination Theory)
EC: 60% (SO BE IT)
Leviathan: 70% (Intelligence..can it be Harbinger? What's with the similar audiovisuals to the ending? Indoctirnation? Enthrallment?)

..Omega: 80%
??? ----> 90%

#34499
Xilizhra
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:14

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In theory, what would you consider evidence against IT? Just speaking hypothetically, if it happened to appear.

#34500
CmdrShep80
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:14

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byne wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

*sigh* I didn't say they shouldn't be thrown a bone.

You're still invalidating our roleplaying and choices. You're still being exclusionary, just trying to pretty it up. Again, I have no problem with your interpretation staying with you, but I do have a problem with you trying to force it on us.


This is like saying your interpretation of Mario loves jumping into bottomless pits, and is in fact invigorated by doing so, and damn Nintendo for excluding you and causing pits to kill him.

If IT is true, then synthesis and control were wrong, according to BioWare.

If IT is not true, utopian endings where everyone is happy and nothing makes sense are correct, I guess.


dh. It's more like Mario loves tossing yoshi down bottomless pits so he can save himself from sudden death. Just imagine how many yoshis were sacrificed to make it through just one Mario game...:blink:
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