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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!

Débuté par byne , juil. 30 2012 07:09

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#34501
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:15

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Hrothdane wrote...

The good old "is-ought problem" rears its head again.

Do I think that IT as it was implemented OUGHT to be the ending? Not really. BioWare could have been a little less obtuse about it. At least two "win" options would be better.

Do I think IT IS the ending? Absolutely. From the way the story was told, we do not get multiple win options because only one gets the breath scene.

Don't assume that just because someone says something is true that they are throwing their full support behind it. If I insist that EA won't greenlight any more non-multiplayer games, that does not mean that I necessarily think such a course of action is perfect, ideal, good, or even well-advised.


Yeah, I'm with you there.

IT, to me, is a genius idea.

And its implementation in connection to the rest of the story would also be genius.

But its implementation, from a CONSUMER perspective, is .... annoying. And I wouldn't support it.

But if its happening, I can also make the best of it. But I don't love it. I just love its implications in connections to the rest of the story of the entire series. (especially when you get into more interesting and detailed ideas, like Choose Wisely is just about to ... with the Leviathans and manipulation of the cycles...)

#34502
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:17

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Hrothdane wrote...

The universe is BioWare's. Your Shepard is yours.


As I keep telling my boyfriend..

You are Commander Shepard.
But Commander Shepard isn't you.

You're in the driver's seat, controlling part of his mind that makes decisions and what the 'main idea' of what he's going to say, but not what *exactly* he's going to do, nor what *exactly* he's going to say. Because he's still Commander Shepard, not SwobyJ.
That's where the RPing ends and the narrative begins.

If Shepard is being indoctrinated, you as the player have no entitlement to being privy to that information.

#34503
Xilizhra
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:18

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If Shepard is being indoctrinated, you as the player have no entitlement to being privy to that information.

Luckily, if the truth ever becomes known, I will be, and that fact is what Shepard will base her decisions on. Not the desirability of genocide.

#34504
spotlessvoid
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:18

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Xilizhra wrote...

In theory, what would you consider evidence against IT? Just speaking hypothetically, if it happened to appear.

Casey Hudson. Mac Walters. Citadel DLC where you actually find starchild eating a dead owl out of a urinal in some previously hidden part of the citadel.

But then I'd switch to deception theory

#34505
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:19

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401 Kill wrote...

Home run MF wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Home Run...
I'd be somewhat okay with no reveal DLC/expansion if there are some serious hints that are definitively clear to anybody actually willing to see.


Like Leviathan?  Subtly debunking the Child conversation is a beginning.

Leviathan was a *dead-ringer* for Indoctrination influencing the end-sequence. Sadly, some people can't see this. If When Omega drops another major hint for Indoctrination, people who refuse to acknowledge IT will view it as a "coincidence". That sure will be a lot of "coincidences", huh?


I think it may be less about indoctrination in Omega, and more about Cerberus' real plan (again..if IT is true and TIM in the ending isn't real), and the history...and secret secret history (compared to the main plot info) of the Crucible, as well as focus on Harbinger (which is where the indoctrination part still may come in).

Could be wrong here though.

#34506
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:20

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So you're free to keep doing what you're doing, but keep very much in mind that it isn't your universe. Even with interpretations. It's Bioware's. And they made the ending as it is, for a REASON.

And that reason, objectively speaking, does not speak of IT. With luck, it never will, but that won't stop you from keeping your own interpretation for your own universe. I'm not entirely sure what that doesn't satisfy you.

Why are you here


It's still pretty hilarious to me.

#34507
401 Kill
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:21

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spotlessvoid wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In theory, what would you consider evidence against IT? Just speaking hypothetically, if it happened to appear.

Casey Hudson. Mac Walters. Citadel DLC where you actually find starchild eating a dead owl out of a urinal in some previously hidden part of the citadel.

But then I'd switch to deception theory

Really? How about the Intoxication theory? Shepard could be passed out in that urinal.

#34508
401 Kill
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:25

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SwobyJ wrote...


I think it may be less about indoctrination in Omega, and more about Cerberus' real plan (again..if IT is true and TIM in the ending isn't real), and the history...and secret secret history (compared to the main plot info) of the Crucible, as well as focus on Harbinger (which is where the indoctrination part still may come in).

Could be wrong here though.

Well yeah. Could also be that too. Like BansheeOwnage said, Harbinger seems to be getting more important with these DLC's.

#34509
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:26

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Andromidius wrote...

Destroy certain isn't the easy way out, but in a way its similar to a leg that's been completely infected with gangrene (note to self: looking at the wiki article to check the spelling my result in loss of appetite).

Destroy is making the hard decision to cut off the limb to save the rest of the body (killing the Geth/EDI).

Control is using experimental medicine that might not even work, risking death (trusting that Starbinger isn't lying and hoping the solution works even though it may lead to the Reapers still reaping).

Synthesis is taking hallucinative drugs and pretending the problem doesn't exist (need I explain it?).

Sorry, but the treatment for a massive infection is amputation. Do it and move on.


I think that's a good way of understanding it.

Destroy is distasteful but necessary. Jeez, dialogue in the whole game tells us this.

Control is possible, in some way, but the 'doctor' in this case is the REAPER CREATOR (of whatever sort, even though I personally think we're talking to Harbinger..). Come now.

Synthesis is possible too, but you're still infected. Oh wait, you're even more infected now. Oh wait, you're dead. And in Control too.



Everyone, watch this video tribute youtu.be/XOe8RFQBvd8

It's beauty aside, I think it fully illustrates how Destroy is both unappealing (morally), yet EXACTLY what both Paragons and Renegade were seeking for all along.

You're the ruthless dictator. You're the couragous symbol. You're the helpful friend, and ally. You're the hero. The scarred. The hopeful.

What are you in Control? What are you in SYNTHESIS? You're TIM and Saren.



The good news is that in all three endings, Shepard STILL seems to have hope. And I have hope that all three endings would somehow continue Mass Effect in some real form, even in some variation of victory.

#34510
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:28

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Xilizhra wrote...

If Shepard is being indoctrinated, you as the player have no entitlement to being privy to that information.

Luckily, if the truth ever becomes known, I will be, and that fact is what Shepard will base her decisions on. Not the desirability of genocide.


Genocide isn't desirable. Destory isn't desiring genocide. That's the point of the entire narrative. Make the HARD choices. If genocide was desirable (or the concept of it, because whether geth/EDI are gone is still debatable in IT), it would be the EASY choice.

And by entitlement, I mean in the main gmae. DLC was always described by Bioware themselves as puzzle pieces, where according to them, we may very well THEN be 'entitled' to answers.

#34511
Jawsomebob
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:29

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Can someone who has read almost every post in these threads sum up what I need to know? I am really interested...but don't want to read 1,000 pages,

#34512
FFZero
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:32

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Xilizhra wrote...

In theory, what would you consider evidence against IT? Just speaking hypothetically, if it happened to appear.


The only proof that would convince me and others here of IT being invalid is if in-game events say that it’s not happening, and so far we’ve seen more supporting the idea of Shepard being indoctrinated than against. Forgetting all the stuff we’ve brought up to do with the ending, at the end of Leviathan Ann Bryson says she’s indoctrinated because Leviathan got inside her head. Right there it’s strongly implied Shepard is, at the very least, partially indoctrinated as well since the exact same thing happened to him/her.

#34513
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:32

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To add to my video link, remember that Kaiden is both representative of Shepard's conscience... but he is also easily fooled when he DOESN'T go by his gut (gut = Shepard is good, telling the truth, in the story. Also that Cerberus is bad, regardless of what Shepard also says). The Citadel Council standoff may even be purposefully put in the game for this purpose.

Same with Ashley, for the most part. Just Kaiden is more clear about it.

"You don't have to take this all on yourself, look to your crew, to the talented people that are fighting by your side"
They, including EDI, ARE the Normandy. THEY are the story of Mass Effect. Listen to them. Trust their judgement.

Modifié par SwobyJ, 15 octobre 2012 - 02:34 .

#34514
401 Kill
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:33

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Jawsomebob wrote...

Can someone who has read almost every post in these threads sum up what I need to know? I am really interested...but don't want to read 1,000 pages,

The first page has everything you'll need to know (Which is a lot of information). Also this is Mk. III of the IT, all three threads total over 5000 pages! That is a lot of speculation:O.

#34515
Iconoclaste
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:35

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Jawsomebob wrote...

Can someone who has read almost every post in these threads sum up what I need to know? I am really interested...but don't want to read 1,000 pages,

In the ending, what the player sees is not real, it is merely a representation of a mental fight between Shepard and the "Reapers" trying to have him make a bad choice. The only "good" choice is "destroy", because it's the only choice where Shepard "wakes up" from the "hallucination", if he has enough EMS.

#34516
CmdrShep80
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:36

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 I'm doing this post on a phone so sorry about the way it looks. Maybe I can find it later and clean it up, if I can find it again lol

Paragon by definition:1. A model of excellence or perfection of a kind; a peerless example: a paragon of virtue.

Renagade by definition:

1. One who rejects a religion, cause, allegiance, or group for another; a deserter.2. An outlaw; a rebel.

Now take your choice and put it with this statement:

to have had a good war to have made the most of the opportunities presented to one during wartime

basically equals:

Morality (from the Latin moralitas "manner, character, proper behavior") is a sense ofbehavioral conduct that differentiates intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are good (or right) and bad (or wrong). A moral code is a system of morality (for example, according to a particular philosophy, religion, culture, etc.) and a moral is any one practice or teaching within a moral code. Immorality is the active opposition to morality, while amorality is variously defined as an unawareness of, indifference toward, or disbelief in any set of moral standards or principles.[1][2][3][4]Morality has two principal meanings:
  • In its "descriptive" sense, morality refers to personal or cultural values, codes of conduct or social mores that distinguish between right and wrong in the human society. Describing morality in this way is not making a claim about what is objectively right or wrong, but only referring to what is considered right or wrong by people. For the most part right and wrong acts are classified as such because they are thought to cause benefit or harm, but it is possible that many moral beliefs are based on prejudice, ignorance or even hatred. This sense of the term is addressed by descriptive ethics.
  • In its "normative" sense, morality refers directly to what is right and wrong, regardless of what specific individuals think. It could be defined as the conduct of the ideal "moral" person in a certain situation. This usage of the term is characterized by "definitive" statements such as "That act is immoral" rather than descriptive ones such as "Many believe that act is immoral." It is often challenged by moral nihilism, which rejects the existence of an any moral truths,[5] and supported by moral realism, which supports the existence of moral truths. The normative usage of the term "morality" is addressed by normative ethics.

#34517
TSA_383
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:37

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401 Kill wrote...

Jawsomebob wrote...

Can someone who has read almost every post in these threads sum up what I need to know? I am really interested...but don't want to read 1,000 pages,

The first page has everything you'll need to know (Which is a lot of information). Also this is Mk. III of the IT, all three threads total over 5000 pages! That is a lot of speculation:O.

5000 pages and ~2.2 million views.
Not bad, not bad...

#34518
BatmanTurian
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:37

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Jawsomebob wrote...

Can someone who has read almost every post in these threads sum up what I need to know? I am really interested...but don't want to read 1,000 pages,


Read this post: http://social.biowar...7/1180#14344443

#34519
Dendio1
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:38

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been gone for a while. Any new interesting vids the past few weeks?

#34520
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:38

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Another AMAZING IT-related (I'm sure the video maker is at least appreciative of IT ideas) video:

Mass Effect 3 ≈ Inundated
www.youtube.com/watch

#34521
CmdrShep80
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:41

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I suppose what I'm getting at is whatever choice people pick IT or no, literal or no, puzzle or no, other theories or no as long as they think it was a morally correct decision, then it was.

Example: I didn't kill Wrex cause I thought it was the moral thing to do. In the end I had to watch Mordin die even though I was a paragon person and did what I could to save him because of a choice I made that I thought was right earlier on (even if I changed my mind later and thought it was wrong)

#34522
CmdrShep80
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:44

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TSA_383 wrote...

401 Kill wrote...

Jawsomebob wrote...

Can someone who has read almost every post in these threads sum up what I need to know? I am really interested...but don't want to read 1,000 pages,

The first page has everything you'll need to know (Which is a lot of information). Also this is Mk. III of the IT, all three threads total over 5000 pages! That is a lot of speculation:O.

5000 pages and ~2.2 million views.
Not bad, not bad...


hmm a summary. Ok. Everyone of us were duped in the end because we were slowly indoctrinated and didn't know it because we were playing from the point of view of we are commander Shepard and couldn't see ourselves become indoctrinated like we could when we looked at other indoctrinated people. I think that about sums it up 

#34523
CmdrShep80
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:45

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Oh and to add now we've spent 5000 posts debating if it was true or not because we're still seeing things from commander Shepard's point of view

#34524
cowboy of the void
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:46

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Kind of an off track deal but my small minded reasoning looked at Control ending and thought wait if Destroy does in the reapers, EDI and the geth Synthesis affects all why is the Control ending all of sudden just only affects the reapers? Wouldn't that mean control of the geth too at least because of the reaper code? Dunno something I noticed that doesn't add up to me

#34525
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 15 octobre 2012 - 02:48

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youtu.be/By2-txdv3eQ

"..You're a hero to these men and women. Don't discount the effect this can have on them."


Conventional victory is becoming increasingly possible to me now, somehow.

Show the Reapers this cycle will NOT lose. That this isn't a harvest, this is a true war.

But if Shepard dies.....

"HEY Shepard! Go die and create a clone AI!"

"HEY Shepard! Go die and send your 'essence' to all da universeeee."

"Hey Shepard... don't pick that one. You'll die. Wait, you didn't. Um.... just don't pick it. I don't like it."
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