80611 réponses à ce sujet

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Dwailing wrote...

 Closed minds are how (flame) wars start.

Closed minds are the reason some players try to bring morale into the issues of choosing : "right" (destroy) vs  "wrong" (Control & Synthesis).

[Xilizhra]

Indoctrination and Reaper signals don't just go away when the Reaper/controller/artifact is destroyed.

His 'freedom' at that moment was a freedom to commit suicide.

As with all other known indoctrinated organics that have glimpses of freedom. Even Benezia all but begged for you to kill her.

Noted, but TIM isn't capable of indoctrination; he seems to be able to force other peoples' bodies to move in certain ways, but it's not total, and he can't take control of their thoughts. Also, it seems to fade instantly upon death. Hence, there's no real sign that the Reapers are controlling Shepard through TIM.

Also, I'm still curious as to what you'd take, hypothetically, as evidence against IT.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 15 octobre 2012 - 03:23 .

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SwobyJ wrote...


I have some agreement there.

But I temper my moral judgement here with the belief that Control is possible... but we're not remotely ready (like Shepard himself says).

And Synthesis is possible and happening, but a 'final solution' () offered of it, by the Creator of the Reapers, is disturbing as hell.

I have to point out that the same  morale (right vs wrong) applies also to supporters of Control and Synthesis. I think Bioware could have tought of other some other way to "categorize" the player's philosophies that could reflect equally the diversity of beliefs, without polarizing the issues on such extremes.

[Xilizhra]

As far as we know, all Reaper tech in itself is capable of indoctrination. If it accellerated TIM's indoctrination and even his huskification, the mark it may be making on Shepard's mind can't be good. In a literal view.

No it's not. The Citadel, the mass relays, EDI, Thanix cannons, etc, don't indoctrinate people. Only specially-built devices and the Reapers themselves do.

Basically EC both embellished the literal and the IT details. I do take the literal view as currently valid, but creatively (in terms of writing) abhorrant.

I disagree. I don't believe it's abhorrent so much as inadequately foreshadowed, and that the overall plot of ME3 was too simplistic in several ways (something the rest of the series is a victim to as well, ME2 moreso). Control was presented as viable at the end of ME2 with the Collector base, and things could have gone from there if Cerberus hadn't gone completely off the rails in ME3. I'm less sure how Synthesis could be brought up, but maybe with the geth plotline.

[401 Kill]

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, I'm still curious as to what you'd take, hypothetically, as evidence against IT.

I'm not really sure, but the most common one is that since Arrival was DLC, not every Shepard has participated in it and thus, it is not canon. But Bioware themselves has stated that Arrival is canon, so this argument falls apart.

[Xilizhra]

401 Kill wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, I'm still curious as to what you'd take, hypothetically, as evidence against IT.

I'm not really sure, but the most common one is that since Arrival was DLC, not every Shepard has participated in it and thus, it is not canon. But Bioware themselves has stated that Arrival is canon, so this argument falls apart.

And hypothetically, in the future? What sort of thing would count?

[Xilizhra]

I'm pretty sure that prior to the Catalyst appearing, the vast majority of players were not looking forward to merging with the Reapers or even controlling them.

I didn't have prior expectations. My goal has never been to destroy the Reapers, just to stop the harvest; if another solution presented itself, I was always going to be willing to consider it.

[401 Kill]

Xilizhra wrote...

401 Kill wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, I'm still curious as to what you'd take, hypothetically, as evidence against IT.

I'm not really sure, but the most common one is that since Arrival was DLC, not every Shepard has participated in it and thus, it is not canon. But Bioware themselves has stated that Arrival is canon, so this argument falls apart.

And hypothetically, in the future? What sort of thing would count?

Anything that IT cannot address/refute successfully. I hope this was an appropriate answer, because I did not completely understand the question.

[Xilizhra]

EDI and Thanix is essentially reverse engineering, showing that we can make use of Reaper tech once we adjust it to our own ends ... but time and time again, using or even being near original Reaper tech ruins us.

Aside, again, from the mass relays and Citadel?

Control isn't viable with the base afterward, at least from the literal perspective that TIM is indoctrinated. The Human-Reaper indoctrinates, or is at least hinted at indoctrinating Cerberus. Yay. The Human-Reaper is from the Collector Base.

That's in the overly simplistic ME3, remember. And I don't know if TIM starts out indoctrinated; he may just be a victim of bad writing until Thessia and the time that he gets his implants.

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SwobyJ wrote...

I'm pretty sure that prior to the Catalyst appearing, the vast majority of players were not looking forward to merging with the Reapers or even controlling them.

There were some ultra-Renegades though that did want to at least take control of the Reaper-tech fully, but become a Reaper?.....................................no. Or at least as a BAD/evil ending


That's why, from an IT perspective, I find the endings to still be at least kinda genius. Bioware convinced (again, again from IT side) at least 1/3 of players, at minimum, to side significantly with the Reapers. Regardless of the outcome in slides.

To make a short agreement here, I tried all endings and still was unsatisfied (in order : Synthesis, Control, Destroy, then doing nothing and ... lost the Crucible). My unsatisfaction had nothing to do with "morale" behind the choices, at least not right then, with an extenuated Shepard just wanting the conclusion of his actions. I was unsatisfied because the Shepard-player was removed from view at that point, to be replaced with a fuzzy display of colors and galactic overhead view of space-magic that left me wondering what the hell happened to my "player pawn". Nowhere in the game before was the player so completely "disconnected" from a cutscene or allowed to view anything beyond immediate environment. In fact, the screen could as well have gone black after making any of the 3 choices, and a small paragraph of white text explaining the outcome would have had the same effect, and would have cost much less to Bioware.

[401 Kill]

It's getting late so I will go for now.

[Xilizhra]

Hint: Reapers are still standing in Control and Synthesis, regardless of how they're controlled or brought to 'peace'.

But their threat is over.

2)I don't actually think ME3 has simplistic writing BTW. If IT is true, then TIM is still a very much 'grey' character, playing both sides, and he's still alive in the ME3 ending. Here comes Omega DLC to hint more strongly at what he may be truly up to.

But if IT is true, that just makes the writing more simplistic, because it means that the ending can now only support one (obvious) choice, as opposed to three.

[shepskisaac]

SwobyJ wrote...

EC: 60% (SO BE IT)

Catalyst is a Leviathan AI. Go figure he would have a voice like them. Where's the evidence here?

[demersel]

They've all picked destroy.....hm... You know what! They actually did!

I always wondered, why is it only Shepard, that is undergoing indoctrination. And the thing is - its really not!!! It is everyone! It is like the loyalty missions in ME2! Exactly like them! BUT it is the opposite of them in a sense that in ME2 - you helped them to get through their crysises! You were there to support them. but in ME3 it is something that everyone must do for himself. And they know it! Each one of them chooses destroy for himself during the game, and urges you to do the same! ME3 - is a huge Shepard's loyalty mission! With others trying to help you get through! They also might have been undergoing similiar things like dreams and doubts - but they made their choice.

[Iconoclaste]

401 Kill wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, I'm still curious as to what you'd take, hypothetically, as evidence against IT.

I'm not really sure, but the most common one is that since Arrival was DLC, not every Shepard has participated in it and thus, it is not canon. But Bioware themselves has stated that Arrival is canon, so this argument falls apart.

Arrival may be canon just because it's the only sequence that explains how and when the Reapers are coming, to "bridge the gap" between ME2 and ME3. The fact that this DLC features a bad episode for Shepard close to a Reaper artefact was probably not the reason to make Arrival of substantial importance over the simple "Reaper incoming forecast".

[Xilizhra]

I'm also curious about how much you know about literature. I really, really don't mean to sound rude here, but I've heard this same level of stuff being said by very low level creative writers. Like there's a lack of nuance, that I always wish they could understand.

I think it mostly has to do with my profound annoyance about the pushing of simple destruction as the only possible goal. It's not necessarily the fact that there's just one possibility (you claim) alone, so much as it being just one possibility combined with what it is. I hate it when the only choice is to just kill stuff, especially when it's something you don't understand. I want to preserve knowledge and technology. I want to examine and speak to the lives within the Reapers. I want to subvert my foes, not just smash them. I don't want to just have "abominations" thrown at me and only have the easy choice to destroy them for being what they are.