80611 réponses à ce sujet

[demersel]

Rifneno wrote...
I don't remember Star Wars, I didn't care for a single one of them.  And you're missing the point.  He's saying we don't have a war to win.  The war is won because it's "implied".  No more war, no Mass Effect 4 where someone else finishes it, nothing.  Buzz Aldrin doing THE worst voiceover in the history of sound is all we need in that warped, twisted "logic".

Let me put it this way. - Have you ever at any point in Mass Effect doubt that you'll win the war and defeat the reapers? Like, at all? 

[Rifneno]

demersel wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
I don't remember Star Wars, I didn't care for a single one of them.  And you're missing the point.  He's saying we don't have a war to win.  The war is won because it's "implied".  No more war, no Mass Effect 4 where someone else finishes it, nothing.  Buzz Aldrin doing THE worst voiceover in the history of sound is all we need in that warped, twisted "logic".

Let me put it this way. - Have you ever at any point in Mass Effect doubt that you'll win the war and defeat the reapers? Like, at all? 

Have I ever had any doubt that they'd actually write an ending?

[demersel]

Rifneno wrote...

Have I ever had any doubt that they'd actually write an ending?

that's not what i asked.

[Rifneno]

demersel wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Have I ever had any doubt that they'd actually write an ending?

that's not what i asked.

I don't care what you asked.

[BatmanTurian]

TheWill wrote...

giant space jellyfish.. who were once despot galactic overlords have little reason to tell the truth...

and i never believed the leviathans story about organics creating machines that ended up killing them... more likely the thrall races created machines to fight the leviathans... the leviathans are able to take control of organic minds... but i dont think they can control machines... harbinger was more than likely an attempt by the leviathans of creating their own project overlord.. an organic ai hybrid capable of controling not only the organics but the machines they created...

the hybrid.. harbinger probably did as it was tasked to do... to end the conflict it was created for...
when talking with leviathan were told that the intelligence created an army of pawns across the galaxy while it gathered data... more likely these pawns were created from the thralls that rebelled the leviathans rule... and with each pawn under its control the intelligence gains more knowledge and understanding of the conflict is has been created to end...

finally it creates its final solution... the harvest begins....

I love this theory soooo much.

[Rankincountry]

demersel wrote...

Rifneno wrote...

Except when he's going on about how IT doesn't need any extra content because it's "implied that we won."  Which is bull**** in every way possible.

No it's not actually. It is just the same in ME1 and ME2. both times we did win the battle but still have a war to win. 

Think about ME3's ending like of an Empire Strikes Back, rather than Return of the Jedy. Like Irvin Kershner said about it - "I did not have a traditional climax. There waas no culmination. But what there was - an emotional climax"

The problem with that is that we were sold ME3 on the basis that it was going to be equivalent to Return of the Jedi. Actually ME always felt to me more like a TV series - replaying the games is like getting a season box set out to watch through and enjoy again. ME2 particularly feels quite episodic in its structure. But regardless, here's my concern.

Films and shows like the original Star Wars trilogy, Babylon 5, Life on Mars/Ashes to Ashes etc. may run for quite a long time. But they give us a complete story - mysteries are explained, character arcs play out and regardless of whether you actually liked them or not, they give you a resolution that is foreshadowed throughout and works to a greater or lesser extent in the context of the universe they've created.

The ME trilogy, we were told, was going to do this. And ME3 manifestly hasn't because here we are months later still arguing over what the ending means on a fundamental level - we don't have our resolution. Now if Bioware have a cunning DLC plan and we get the pieces of the puzzle over the coming year, I will salute their cleverness when it all comes together next March. However, it's dubious ethically because we weren't told that ME3 was going to be episodic and that the full story was going to cost extra. Don't get me wrong - I don't begrudge coughing up for the DLC - Leviathan was well worth it. But I feel a bit like I didn't exactly get the product I was promised. This I think is the source of quite a lot of the fan rage.

There is a worse scenario lurking though. That they're going to string us along and in trying to please everybody, will end up with a story that doesn't quite end and doesn't satisfy anyone. In this instance, DLC that doesn't contribute to the ending is simply milking the franchise and stringing along IT-ist, puzzlist and literalist alike before cutting us off and then leaving us with either a horribly contrived sequel or potentially lame prequels.

In either case I think that Bioware's judgement has not been good and I think the length of time this whole thing has spun out over has contributed to the polarisation and bickering within the fanbase, because it's enough time for ideas to become entrenched in people's heads. I don't know what the answer is except to say, let this play out and be civil to each other in the meantime - we can judge Bioware when it's all done and we know what's happening for sure with ME4. Let's try to be a bit less judgemental with each other though.

[Rifneno]

Rankincountry wrote...

Films and shows like the original Star Wars trilogy, Babylon 5, Life on Mars/Ashes to Ashes etc. may run for quite a long time. But they give us a complete story - mysteries are explained, character arcs play out and regardless of whether you actually liked them or not, they give you a resolution that is foreshadowed throughout and works to a greater or lesser extent in the context of the universe they've created.

Bingo!

“You'll get answers to everything. That was one of the key things. Regardless of how we did everything, we had to say, yes, we're going to provide some answers to these people.” - Mike Gamble

Yet here we are, half a year later and we don't know so many incredibly important things.  They promised us answers above all else, and that is pretty much the one thing they failed to deliver.

[Skillz1986]

demersel wrote...

Rifneno wrote...
I don't remember Star Wars, I didn't care for a single one of them.  And you're missing the point.  He's saying we don't have a war to win.  The war is won because it's "implied".  No more war, no Mass Effect 4 where someone else finishes it, nothing.  Buzz Aldrin doing THE worst voiceover in the history of sound is all we need in that warped, twisted "logic".

Let me put it this way. - Have you ever at any point in Mass Effect doubt that you'll win the war and defeat the reapers? Like, at all? 

i for one did. everything was just going too well during my playthrough...this is usually a sign for a major f**** up in the end. especially if you think about what you're fighting against.

[Ithurael]

Rankincountry wrote...

The problem with that is that we were sold ME3 on the basis that it was going to be equivalent to Return of the Jedi. Actually ME always felt to me more like a TV series - replaying the games is like getting a season box set out to watch through and enjoy again. ME2 particularly feels quite episodic in its structure. But regardless, here's my concern.

Films and shows like the original Star Wars trilogy, Babylon 5, Life on Mars/Ashes to Ashes etc. may run for quite a long time. But they give us a complete story - mysteries are explained, character arcs play out and regardless of whether you actually liked them or not, they give you a resolution that is foreshadowed throughout and works to a greater or lesser extent in the context of the universe they've created.

The ME trilogy, we were told, was going to do this. And ME3 manifestly hasn't because here we are months later still arguing over what the ending means on a fundamental level - we don't have our resolution. Now if Bioware have a cunning DLC plan and we get the pieces of the puzzle over the coming year, I will salute their cleverness when it all comes together next March. However, it's dubious ethically because we weren't told that ME3 was going to be episodic and that the full story was going to cost extra. Don't get me wrong - I don't begrudge coughing up for the DLC - Leviathan was well worth it. But I feel a bit like I didn't exactly get the product I was promised. This I think is the source of quite a lot of the fan rage.

There is a worse scenario lurking though. That they're going to string us along and in trying to please everybody, will end up with a story that doesn't quite end and doesn't satisfy anyone. In this instance, DLC that doesn't contribute to the ending is simply milking the franchise and stringing along IT-ist, puzzlist and literalist alike before cutting us off and then leaving us with either a horribly contrived sequel or potentially lame prequels.

In either case I think that Bioware's judgement has not been good and I think the length of time this whole thing has spun out over has contributed to the polarisation and bickering within the fanbase, because it's enough time for ideas to become entrenched in people's heads. I don't know what the answer is except to say, let this play out and be civil to each other in the meantime - we can judge Bioware when it's all done and we know what's happening for sure with ME4. Let's try to be a bit less judgemental with each other though.

Wow, Nicely stated.

I agree wholeheartedly

[Dwailing]

BatmanTurian wrote...

TheWill wrote...

giant space jellyfish.. who were once despot galactic overlords have little reason to tell the truth...

and i never believed the leviathans story about organics creating machines that ended up killing them... more likely the thrall races created machines to fight the leviathans... the leviathans are able to take control of organic minds... but i dont think they can control machines... harbinger was more than likely an attempt by the leviathans of creating their own project overlord.. an organic ai hybrid capable of controling not only the organics but the machines they created...

the hybrid.. harbinger probably did as it was tasked to do... to end the conflict it was created for...
when talking with leviathan were told that the intelligence created an army of pawns across the galaxy while it gathered data... more likely these pawns were created from the thralls that rebelled the leviathans rule... and with each pawn under its control the intelligence gains more knowledge and understanding of the conflict is has been created to end...

finally it creates its final solution... the harvest begins....

I love this theory soooo much.

That's... very frickin' brilliant!  I would LOVE it if this turned out to be what's going on.  This, or my "Just Machines" Hypothesis.  Just sayin'.

[Eryri]

Rankincountry wrote...


There is a worse scenario lurking though. That they're going to string us along and in trying to please everybody, will end up with a story that doesn't quite end and doesn't satisfy anyone. In this instance, DLC that doesn't contribute to the ending is simply milking the franchise and stringing along IT-ist, puzzlist and literalist alike before cutting us off and then leaving us with either a horribly contrived sequel or potentially lame prequels.

In either case I think that Bioware's judgement has not been good and I think the length of time this whole thing has spun out over has contributed to the polarisation and bickering within the fanbase, because it's enough time for ideas to become entrenched in people's heads. (snip)

Very true. "Try to please everyone and you end up pleasing no - one". If they lose their nerve and fail to provide an IT wake up dlc because of potential backlash from those who (somehow) enjoyed the face value endings, then that would be a disastrous, missed opportunity.

However this is one instance where EA's thick skin and stubborness may come to our aid. If they were prepared to release "those" endings for the vanilla game, then I don't think they're overly concerned about how people regard them.

I also agree that Bioware's judgment has been poor, even assuming they planned IT. They were too close to the project and forgot that the fans didn't know what they knew about their future plans. We couldn't see the game through their lens. From our perspective it just seemed horribly incomplete.

Modifié par Eryri, 15 octobre 2012 - 12:59 .

[Eryri]

Dwailing wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

TheWill wrote...

giant space jellyfish.. who were once despot galactic overlords have little reason to tell the truth...

and i never believed the leviathans story about organics creating machines that ended up killing them... more likely the thrall races created machines to fight the leviathans... the leviathans are able to take control of organic minds... but i dont think they can control machines... harbinger was more than likely an attempt by the leviathans of creating their own project overlord.. an organic ai hybrid capable of controling not only the organics but the machines they created...

the hybrid.. harbinger probably did as it was tasked to do... to end the conflict it was created for...
when talking with leviathan were told that the intelligence created an army of pawns across the galaxy while it gathered data... more likely these pawns were created from the thralls that rebelled the leviathans rule... and with each pawn under its control the intelligence gains more knowledge and understanding of the conflict is has been created to end...

finally it creates its final solution... the harvest begins....

I love this theory soooo much.

That's... very frickin' brilliant!  I would LOVE it if this turned out to be what's going on.  This, or my "Just Machines" Hypothesis.  Just sayin'.

I agree. That would make much more sense.

[Restrider]

Polls

[ealeander]

TheWill wrote...

giant space jellyfish.. who were once despot galactic overlords have little reason to tell the truth...

and i never believed the leviathans story about organics creating machines that ended up killing them... more likely the thrall races created machines to fight the leviathans... the leviathans are able to take control of organic minds... but i dont think they can control machines... harbinger was more than likely an attempt by the leviathans of creating their own project overlord.. an organic ai hybrid capable of controling not only the organics but the machines they created...

the hybrid.. harbinger probably did as it was tasked to do... to end the conflict it was created for...
when talking with leviathan were told that the intelligence created an army of pawns across the galaxy while it gathered data... more likely these pawns were created from the thralls that rebelled the leviathans rule... and with each pawn under its control the intelligence gains more knowledge and understanding of the conflict is has been created to end...

finally it creates its final solution... the harvest begins....

Nice post. It would make a lot of sense given that the Catalyst suggests their true purpose is to stop other synthetics.

Anyway, FWIW, I personally think ME4 will assume Destroy but leave IT open for those who want it. Happy "Control" and "Synthetic" will be there at the end of ME3 for those who want their ME1-3 story to end there and ME4 won't explicitly say they were wrong... but "Destroy" will be canon. I just don't see any way of making "Control" or "Synthetic" the canon ending without explicitly making them bad endings (i.e., Evil Shepard Dictator AI in a distopian future or transhumanist paradise being an insidiuous Reaper trap all along).

Modifié par ealeander, 15 octobre 2012 - 01:13 .

[Rankincountry]

Eryri wrote...

Dwailing wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

TheWill wrote...

giant space jellyfish.. who were once despot galactic overlords have little reason to tell the truth...

and i never believed the leviathans story about organics creating machines that ended up killing them... more likely the thrall races created machines to fight the leviathans... the leviathans are able to take control of organic minds... but i dont think they can control machines... harbinger was more than likely an attempt by the leviathans of creating their own project overlord.. an organic ai hybrid capable of controling not only the organics but the machines they created...

the hybrid.. harbinger probably did as it was tasked to do... to end the conflict it was created for...
when talking with leviathan were told that the intelligence created an army of pawns across the galaxy while it gathered data... more likely these pawns were created from the thralls that rebelled the leviathans rule... and with each pawn under its control the intelligence gains more knowledge and understanding of the conflict is has been created to end...

finally it creates its final solution... the harvest begins....

I love this theory soooo much.

That's... very frickin' brilliant!  I would LOVE it if this turned out to be what's going on.  This, or my "Just Machines" Hypothesis.  Just sayin'.

I agree. That would make much more sense.

+1, very well thought through. I like the idea of Harbinger subverting the thralls that rebelled - the origin of reaper indoctrination.

[DoomsdayDevice]

TheWill wrote...

giant space jellyfish.. who were once despot galactic overlords have little reason to tell the truth...

and i never believed the leviathans story about organics creating machines that ended up killing them... more likely the thrall races created machines to fight the leviathans... the leviathans are able to take control of organic minds... but i dont think they can control machines... harbinger was more than likely an attempt by the leviathans of creating their own project overlord.. an organic ai hybrid capable of controling not only the organics but the machines they created...

Great point, I totally agree!

The organics that were enthralled by the Leviathans developed machines to rebel against the enslaving overlords, because the Leviathan can only control organic minds.

The Leviathans then created a hybrid that could control both organics and synthetics. This simply backfired on them. (Another example of failed control)

The AI wasn't created to preserve life, the Leviathans just wanted to stay the top dogs in the galaxy.

This ties in perfectly with my theory that the Reapers are simply reaping because they don't want organics to become powerful enough to threaten them, or develop synthetics that are powerful enough to threaten them.

This whole 'preserving life' business is all a big lie. It's just a lie to gain your sympathy.

It all makes sense now.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 15 octobre 2012 - 01:25 .

[masster blaster]

The will I like your theory about Harbinger, and the Leviathans, and I wanted to add more.

The Leviathans thought they were the apex of evolution, until Synthetics were created. The Leviathans grew angry because of the Synthetic superor knowlogy, and not ageing.

So they made Harbinger, or the star brat, to solve their problem about the Synthetics., but during this process the Leviathans forced their thrall races to attack the Synthetics thus the war begain.

As Harbinger watch it only undertood that the Synthetics were the problem, but the organics would always create more Synthetics. So then the horrbile experiment begain.

Project overlord. You see the Leviathans control organics, but not synthetics. The brat, or aka Harbinger could most likly control/hack the Synthetics as seen in ME2. The Geth had a math error, that made them follow Nazar, which is like they became Indoctrinated do to a math error.

Anyways the Catalyst/star child told it's creators that he found a solution, but lead them into a trap. As the catalyst took the dead, or maybe alive Leviathans, he told the Synthetics to build the first Reaper, out of his creators, and upload his core programing into Harbinger.

Thus Harbinger was born. After the Leviathans were defeted. Harbinger saw that the thrall races were not ever going to stop making Synthetics, and then the Harvest begain.

And that is also why the Reapers perfected Indoctrination because with a synthetic mind, and the Leviathans Indoctrination abilitys, it became the pinnicle of Evoultion/ the apex as Harbinger clams it is.

[ealeander]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

This whole 'preserving life' business is all a big lie. It's just a lie to gain your sympathy.

It all makes sense now.

I think some form of the Catalyst's story must be true to explain why the Reapers didn't just wipe out ALL organic life. The "only using organic life as an evolutionary lab to absorb powers/knowledge from new evolutionary threads into itself" theory would explain it to some extent. Beyond that, if Reapers are really all just about being top dogs, why let anything other than nonsentient organisms live at all?

We know Leviathan, to some extent, evolved in a symbiotic relationship with lesser organic species due to its own physical limitations, but this isn't really the case with the Reapers.

Modifié par ealeander, 15 octobre 2012 - 01:28 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

ealeander wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

This whole 'preserving life' business is all a big lie. It's just a lie to gain your sympathy.

It all makes sense now.

I think some form of the Catalyst's story must be true to explain why the Reapers didn't just wipe out ALL organic life. The "only using organic life as an evolutionary lab to absorb powers/knowledge from new evolutionary threads into itself" theory would explain it to some extent. Beyond that, if Reapers are really all just about being top dogs, why let anything other bacteria live at all?

We know Leviathan, to some extent, evolved in a symbiotic relationship with lesser organic species due to its own physical limitations, but this isn't really the case with the Reapers.

Procreation. That's why they need organics.

Plus, I'm pretty sure Harbinger enjoys doing what he does, seeing as he was created from Leviathans; he must have their personality traits too.

It's like hunting for sports. You don't go out to kill -all- the deer, because there'll be none left to hunt next year.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 15 octobre 2012 - 01:29 .

[Rifneno]

Dwailing wrote...

BatmanTurian wrote...

TheWill wrote...

giant space jellyfish.. who were once despot galactic overlords have little reason to tell the truth...

and i never believed the leviathans story about organics creating machines that ended up killing them... more likely the thrall races created machines to fight the leviathans... the leviathans are able to take control of organic minds... but i dont think they can control machines... harbinger was more than likely an attempt by the leviathans of creating their own project overlord.. an organic ai hybrid capable of controling not only the organics but the machines they created...

the hybrid.. harbinger probably did as it was tasked to do... to end the conflict it was created for...
when talking with leviathan were told that the intelligence created an army of pawns across the galaxy while it gathered data... more likely these pawns were created from the thralls that rebelled the leviathans rule... and with each pawn under its control the intelligence gains more knowledge and understanding of the conflict is has been created to end...

finally it creates its final solution... the harvest begins....

I love this theory soooo much.

That's... very frickin' brilliant!  I would LOVE it if this turned out to be what's going on.  This, or my "Just Machines" Hypothesis.  Just sayin'.

I had an idea too that I've been reluctant to mention because I'm not sure if it sounds crazy.  But what the hell...  What if there are no leviathans?  Just like Arrival, the only one that went down there and experienced this stuff was Shepard.  If the Reapers were screwing with his mind more than we thought, we'd have no way of knowing because the plot dictated that party members couldn't come along.  The things that make me wonder:

- These things look just like capital ships.  JUST like them.  It wouldn't be too much of a hallucination for Shepard to see a capital ship down there or three down there and them screw with his mind just enough so that he still sees their shape accurately but sees them as organic.  Or they could just be dressed up.  God knows Harbinger likes to play dress up, probably the others do too.

- Not only do they look JUST like them, but they also have roughly the same mind control abilities.  Leviathan's thralldom thing was supposedly different, less refined, but hot damn did it look just like the Catalyst ending for being a different version.  So they look like Reapers and have Reaper abilities?

- Leviathan orbs?  Look back at ME1.  Reaper tech had very similar orbs indoctrinating and huskifying people.  Geth had them on Feros, those husked miners had one... it was clearly Reaper tech with what looked an awful lot like a Leviathan orb.  So now their tech looks alike too?

- Seriously, what are the chances that the Reapers managed to miss the remnants of their creator species for millions, if not billions of years?  They're extremely thorough in their cleanup.  The fact that it'd be damn near impossible for them to miss something thousands of times in a row is one of the biggest reasons the Crucible is thought to be a trap.

- Despite the fact that the crap the Catalyst tells us is brainmeltingly stupid, the Leviathans back that story up.  Seems an awful stretch to think the Reapers' creators were that stupid if they managed to accomplish what they did.  On the other hand, if this whole mess is a Reaper mind game, it makes perfect sense to keep telling the same lies.  Shepard will be more likely to believe the Catalyst if he's telling a story that Shepard "knows" is true already.

- A minor thing, but the Final Hours app specifically stated that they wouldn't go into what the Reapers' origins were.  Yet the first DLC has their creators show up, still alive?  'the hell?

[TheWill]

hey guys.. thanks for the comments.. i think i wrote that sometime when i got back from the pub... i cant really remember lol

it seems i write and think a little better after a few shots of ryncol.... its nice to get positive comments... and this is a safe place to post your ideas...cheers

[DoomsdayDevice]

Without organics, the Reapers wouldn't have anything to hunt for sports.

That's why they leave 'the young' alone.

Just so there can be another hunting season.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 15 octobre 2012 - 01:38 .

[Dr JaMiN]

Bioware recently announced a Sovereign replica, but why not a Harbinger replica? It just seems that the second one would sell better. Because they chose Sovereign, could this possibly be leading to a 'Sovereign's mind uploaded to the Citadel' reveal?

[masster blaster]

Dr. Ya we talked about Nazar uploading it's programming into the Citadel in Mark 1. Thanks for bring it back up.

[paxxton]

"It hurts you!"

Modifié par paxxton, 15 octobre 2012 - 01:50 .