80611 réponses à ce sujet

[BansheeOwnage]

Xilizhra wrote...

That's the point of IT. Remember in IT she's still asleep though. The other choices (Con Syn, maybe Ref) reflect failure to notice that she's indoctrinated. Or perhaps that she agrees with them anyway. Which is hard to reconcile with the idea of indoctrination. The idea of indoctrination being that you're being convinced of somehting that isn't true by tricks.

I agree with Control and Synthesis more than I do Destroy by nature anyway, without indoctrination being required.

No, because the whole point of the hallucination is that it seems (fairly) real. Like how you only realized you were dreaming when you wake up. (So much foreshadowing). Everything seems normal in the dream. You would pick destroy simply because control and synthesis are compromises with the reapers, and refuse is (as of now) doing nothing.

Then I suppose my theory will be different, because I would never in ten thousand years pick Destroy on its own "merits." I'll find a way for Shepard to prove her own indoctrination to herself.

To be honest, I don't understand the point of your theory. You agree that control/synthesis are indoctrination, but want Shepard to pick them and realize that? I don't know what you're saying really...

[Sauron001]

After all the DLCs and the addition of new dialogue at the end you learn the crucible just doesn't work and you wake up next to LI saying WTF was that sh*

[Xilizhra]

To be honest, I don't understand the point of your theory. You agree that control/synthesis are indoctrination, but want Shepard to pick them and realize that? I don't know what you're saying really...

I don't agree that they are, I'm speaking hypothetically. If IT is real, I'll choose Destroy, but only as a means to leave indoctrination (unless I can survive in one of the other endings too). I'll never agree with Destroy's philosophy, so this is the only way I can justify it.

[BansheeOwnage]

Xilizhra wrote...

To be honest, I don't understand the point of your theory. You agree that control/synthesis are indoctrination, but want Shepard to pick them and realize that? I don't know what you're saying really...

I don't agree that they are, I'm speaking hypothetically. If IT is real, I'll choose Destroy, but only as a means to leave indoctrination (unless I can survive in one of the other endings too). I'll never agree with Destroy's philosophy, so this is the only way I can justify it.

There is no difference between destroy's philosophy in IT or literal because it is being experienced from a watsonist perspective. What I mean is that Shepard thinks the end sequence is real, therefore she thinks the consequences will be real. It is only icing on the cake that the geth and EDI wouldn't die in IT. You can't justify the decision based on a dolyist perspective. If you don't see that destroy is the only viable choice, you have been indoctrinated. Congratulations!

Where is everyone?

[FreddyCast]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Then I suppose my theory will be different, because I would never in ten thousand years pick Destroy on its own "merits." I'll find a way for Shepard to prove her own indoctrination to herself.

So be it.

The outcome is inevitable.

You will succumb and ascend. Or you will be annihilated.

You will be raised to a new existence.


We will bring your species into harmony with our own.

Preserve Xilizhra's body if possible...

I too believe that the Destroy option is a compromise and contrary to ME theme of true sacrifice (all because the EC changed the Destroy ending).
To me, refuse is the only option, despite BW giving you the middle finger for refusing Godbrat's nonsense.
I'm going to beat the Reapers on MY TERMS, whether BW likes it or not.

[AresKeith]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

To be honest, I don't understand the point of your theory. You agree that control/synthesis are indoctrination, but want Shepard to pick them and realize that? I don't know what you're saying really...

I don't agree that they are, I'm speaking hypothetically. If IT is real, I'll choose Destroy, but only as a means to leave indoctrination (unless I can survive in one of the other endings too). I'll never agree with Destroy's philosophy, so this is the only way I can justify it.

There is no difference between destroy's philosophy in IT or literal because it is being experienced from a watsonist perspective. What I mean is that Shepard thinks the end sequence is real, therefore she thinks the consequences will be real. It is only icing on the cake that the geth and EDI wouldn't die in IT. You can't justify the decision based on a dolyist perspective. If you don't see that destroy is the only viable choice, you have been indoctrinated. Congratulations!

Where is everyone?

And personally for me, I can't even trust something that can indoctrinate me like everyone else the Reapers had

[Xilizhra]

There is no difference between destroy's philosophy in IT or literal because it is being experienced from a watsonist perspective. What I mean is that Shepard thinks the end sequence is real, therefore she thinks the consequences will be real. It is only icing on the cake that the geth and EDI wouldn't die in IT. You can't justify the decision based on a dolyist perspective. If you don't see that destroy is the only viable choice, you have been indoctrinated. Congratulations!

My Shepard will not think that the end sequence is real if IT is true; she'll see it as indoctrination, based on the clues you people have gathered up, and put those pieces together to strike out against the Catalyst illusion alone, and not the geth or EDI. I refuse to attack them and will only pick Destroy if I know it'll do nothing to them.

[Sauron001]

Xilizhra wrote...

There is no difference between destroy's philosophy in IT or literal because it is being experienced from a watsonist perspective. What I mean is that Shepard thinks the end sequence is real, therefore she thinks the consequences will be real. It is only icing on the cake that the geth and EDI wouldn't die in IT. You can't justify the decision based on a dolyist perspective. If you don't see that destroy is the only viable choice, you have been indoctrinated. Congratulations!

My Shepard will not think that the end sequence is real if IT is true; she'll see it as indoctrination, based on the clues you people have gathered up, and put those pieces together to strike out against the Catalyst illusion alone, and not the geth or EDI. I refuse to attack them and will only pick Destroy if I know it'll do nothing to them.

But every ending has uncertainty thats I think was the purpose of the orginional endings... Without certainty your decision isn't based off of meta gaming.

I believe in IT but even if i didn't I would still choose destroy or refuse because those are chances I am willing to take, not once in playthroughs did the catalyst confirm to 100% that the Geth orr EDI would die. It was specualtion on starkids part because it was an unknown.

[BansheeOwnage]

AresKeith wrote...


And personally for me, I can't even trust something that can indoctrinate me like everyone else the Reapers had

Exactly. He admits he is the reapers... WHAT MORE DO YOU NEED PEOPLE?

[Xilizhra]

But every ending has uncertainty thats I think was the purpose of the orginional endings... Without certainty your decision isn't based off of meta gaming.

My decision would be wholly based on metagaming. I'd be sort of annoyed by that, but I'd adapt.

[byne]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

byne wrote...

Where are my RvB guys when I need to talk about tonight's awesome new episode?

Wow it seems like everyone hated each other in that episode! It was a real free for all. So that was the freelancer break in? It would probably hurt to get 2 AIs removed from you... and how the hell did Carolina survive that fall?

I got sidetracked with WoW stuff, but I've gotta say, I think that was the best episode in a long, long time. I loved the music when Tex was fighting with the spike grenades.

As for Carolina surviving the fall, I'd like to point out that its basically the same thing that happened to the Meta at the end of season 8. Right down to being in a snowy place next to a cliff where a ship had just crashed. I never fully believed that the Meta died from that fall, and now I believe it even less.

Also, North dual wielding sniper rifles was awesome.

[BansheeOwnage]

Xilizhra wrote...

There is no difference between destroy's philosophy in IT or literal because it is being experienced from a watsonist perspective. What I mean is that Shepard thinks the end sequence is real, therefore she thinks the consequences will be real. It is only icing on the cake that the geth and EDI wouldn't die in IT. You can't justify the decision based on a dolyist perspective. If you don't see that destroy is the only viable choice, you have been indoctrinated. Congratulations!

My Shepard will not think that the end sequence is real if IT is true; she'll see it as indoctrination, based on the clues you people have gathered up, and put those pieces together to strike out against the Catalyst illusion alone, and not the geth or EDI. I refuse to attack them and will only pick Destroy if I know it'll do nothing to them.

You can't. You have to play it through from a watsonist perspective; as if you are seeing all of this for the first time. As well, Shepard is incapable (unless they change it - Puzzle Theory style) of seeing the illusion. It's like lucid dreaming, except in this case you can't, because the reaper-induced "dream" is so much more potent.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 16 octobre 2012 - 03:15 .

[BleedingUranium]

Xilizhra wrote...

There is no difference between destroy's philosophy in IT or literal because it is being experienced from a watsonist perspective. What I mean is that Shepard thinks the end sequence is real, therefore she thinks the consequences will be real. It is only icing on the cake that the geth and EDI wouldn't die in IT. You can't justify the decision based on a dolyist perspective. If you don't see that destroy is the only viable choice, you have been indoctrinated. Congratulations!

My Shepard will not think that the end sequence is real if IT is true; she'll see it as indoctrination, based on the clues you people have gathered up, and put those pieces together to strike out against the Catalyst illusion alone, and not the geth or EDI. I refuse to attack them and will only pick Destroy if I know it'll do nothing to them.

No. Your Shepard will never see that's it's not real and an indoctrination attempt ever. Period. You can, but not Shepard. That's called Meta-gaming, which is, for example, reading a guide on how to beat the suicide mission with everyone alive and picking people based on that. Just because you know that Miranda can't so the bubble properly does not mean that your Shepard does. They can't and don't.

If IT is true, you're perfectly allowed to pick Destroy only to win, but no matter what, your Shepard will not be aware of the illusion.

[AresKeith]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

AresKeith wrote...


And personally for me, I can't even trust something that can indoctrinate me like everyone else the Reapers had

Exactly. He admits he is the reapers... WHAT MORE DO YOU NEED PEOPLE?

Then it was his talk about Synthesis that made me say, "Nope I'm done listening to you"

[BansheeOwnage]

Sauron001 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There is no difference between destroy's philosophy in IT or literal because it is being experienced from a watsonist perspective. What I mean is that Shepard thinks the end sequence is real, therefore she thinks the consequences will be real. It is only icing on the cake that the geth and EDI wouldn't die in IT. You can't justify the decision based on a dolyist perspective. If you don't see that destroy is the only viable choice, you have been indoctrinated. Congratulations!

My Shepard will not think that the end sequence is real if IT is true; she'll see it as indoctrination, based on the clues you people have gathered up, and put those pieces together to strike out against the Catalyst illusion alone, and not the geth or EDI. I refuse to attack them and will only pick Destroy if I know it'll do nothing to them.

But every ending has uncertainty thats I think was the purpose of the orginional endings... Without certainty your decision isn't based off of meta gaming.

I believe in IT but even if i didn't I would still choose destroy or refuse because those are chances I am willing to take, not once in playthroughs did the catalyst confirm to 100% that the Geth orr EDI would die. It was specualtion on starkids part because it was an unknown.

And if you think about it, we still never see the dead geth. The EDI appears on the wall if you look hard, but so what? It doesn't exactly strike guilt into the hearts of destroyers... The kid lied about the beam killing Shepard in literal, so why not the geth?

[byne]

AresKeith wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

AresKeith wrote...


And personally for me, I can't even trust something that can indoctrinate me like everyone else the Reapers had

Exactly. He admits he is the reapers... WHAT MORE DO YOU NEED PEOPLE?

Then it was his talk about Synthesis that made me say, "Nope I'm done listening to you"

The worst part about synthesis is that, despite what he says, it is not a solution to godchild's problem.

He is programmed to preserve organic life.

Synthesis removes all organic life from the galaxy and creates only organic/synthetic hybrids.

[BansheeOwnage]

byne wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

byne wrote...

Where are my RvB guys when I need to talk about tonight's awesome new episode?

Wow it seems like everyone hated each other in that episode! It was a real free for all. So that was the freelancer break in? It would probably hurt to get 2 AIs removed from you... and how the hell did Carolina survive that fall?

I got sidetracked with WoW stuff, but I've gotta say, I think that was the best episode in a long, long time. I loved the music when Tex was fighting with the spike grenades.

As for Carolina surviving the fall, I'd like to point out that its basically the same thing that happened to the Meta at the end of season 8. Right down to being in a snowy place next to a cliff where a ship had just crashed. I never fully believed that the Meta died from that fall, and now I believe it even less.

Also, North dual wielding sniper rifles was awesome.

 Yeah that was hilarious! I always assumed Meta wouldn't die from that. I loved the knock-knock joke that took place over the entire fight scene with York and Wyoming!

Weird how North and South are fighting, but they are together when the Meta takes Theta.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 16 octobre 2012 - 03:14 .

[BleedingUranium]

byne wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

byne wrote...

Where are my RvB guys when I need to talk about tonight's awesome new episode?

Wow it seems like everyone hated each other in that episode! It was a real free for all. So that was the freelancer break in? It would probably hurt to get 2 AIs removed from you... and how the hell did Carolina survive that fall?

I got sidetracked with WoW stuff, but I've gotta say, I think that was the best episode in a long, long time. I loved the music when Tex was fighting with the spike grenades.

As for Carolina surviving the fall, I'd like to point out that its basically the same thing that happened to the Meta at the end of season 8. Right down to being in a snowy place next to a cliff where a ship had just crashed. I never fully believed that the Meta died from that fall, and now I believe it even less.

Also, North dual wielding sniper rifles was awesome.

Fully agreed! It's all but confirmed the planet they crashed on is Sidewinder (Chuch says it's a planet in S1), which means the base at Avalanche might be the ship!

As for Carolina's fall, it either means Maine survived, or Carolina did not. There's some speculating in the RT forums that present-day Carolina might be an AI.

[Xilizhra]

You can't. You have to play it through from a watsonist perspective; as if you are seeing all of this for the first time. As well, Shepard is incapable (unless they change is Puzzle Theory style) of seeing the illusion. It's like lucid dreaming, except in this case you can't, because the reaper-induced "dream" is so much more potent.

No I don't. You've said it yourself, about how the surroundings in the ending are weird and illogical. I can easily take this into account in-character. I'm perfectly capable of seeing through the illusion.

If IT is true, you're perfectly allowed to pick Destroy only to win, but no matter what, your Shepard will not be aware of the illusion.

Mine will be. She'll see through the inconsistencies, remember them, and recognize the oddities of the Catalyst. She'll defeat the illusion by disbelieving it and breaking it down, not by being a smashhappy brick.

[FreddyCast]

Sauron001 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There is no difference between destroy's philosophy in IT or literal because it is being experienced from a watsonist perspective. What I mean is that Shepard thinks the end sequence is real, therefore she thinks the consequences will be real. It is only icing on the cake that the geth and EDI wouldn't die in IT. You can't justify the decision based on a dolyist perspective. If you don't see that destroy is the only viable choice, you have been indoctrinated. Congratulations!

My Shepard will not think that the end sequence is real if IT is true; she'll see it as indoctrination, based on the clues you people have gathered up, and put those pieces together to strike out against the Catalyst illusion alone, and not the geth or EDI. I refuse to attack them and will only pick Destroy if I know it'll do nothing to them.

But every ending has uncertainty thats I think was the purpose of the orginional endings... Without certainty your decision isn't based off of meta gaming.

I believe in IT but even if i didn't I would still choose destroy or refuse because those are chances I am willing to take, not once in playthroughs did the catalyst confirm to 100% that the Geth orr EDI would die. It was specualtion on starkids part because it was an unknown.

Until the EC came out changed all that.
The Geth are no longer seen alive, only the Quarians are seen alive.
EDI's body is not in the Memorial Wall scene, meaning her boy is dead and possibly her cyberwarfare suite as well.
The Godbrat gave us what we wanted, but at the cost of our friends and our ideals (War has turned to murder and Shepard has lost his humanity)
Great Job Shepard, Now live with your decision (breathing scene)

[BleedingUranium]

Xilizhra wrote...

You can't. You have to play it through from a watsonist perspective; as if you are seeing all of this for the first time. As well, Shepard is incapable (unless they change is Puzzle Theory style) of seeing the illusion. It's like lucid dreaming, except in this case you can't, because the reaper-induced "dream" is so much more potent.

No I don't. You've said it yourself, about how the surroundings in the ending are weird and illogical. I can easily take this into account in-character. I'm perfectly capable of seeing through the illusion.

If IT is true, you're perfectly allowed to pick Destroy only to win, but no matter what, your Shepard will not be aware of the illusion.

Mine will be. She'll see through the inconsistencies, remember them, and recognize the oddities of the Catalyst. She'll defeat the illusion by disbelieving it and breaking it down, not by being a smashhappy brick.

Now you're going into headcanon. Shepard is not a ball of silly putty that you can mould into anything. Some things can't be changed about Shepard, or what (s)he does. This is one of those things. 

[Sauron001]

Xilizhra wrote...

You can't. You have to play it through from a watsonist perspective; as if you are seeing all of this for the first time. As well, Shepard is incapable (unless they change is Puzzle Theory style) of seeing the illusion. It's like lucid dreaming, except in this case you can't, because the reaper-induced "dream" is so much more potent.

No I don't. You've said it yourself, about how the surroundings in the ending are weird and illogical. I can easily take this into account in-character. I'm perfectly capable of seeing through the illusion.

If IT is true, you're perfectly allowed to pick Destroy only to win, but no matter what, your Shepard will not be aware of the illusion.

Mine will be. She'll see through the inconsistencies, remember them, and recognize the oddities of the Catalyst. She'll defeat the illusion by disbelieving it and breaking it down, not by being a smashhappy brick.

aww the whole point of being the audience.... its called irony you see things the character doesn't so in the end Shepard will not realize it unless the writer allows him to.

[Xilizhra]

Now you're going into headcanon. Shepard is not a ball of silly putty that you can mould into anything. Some things can't be changed about Shepard, or what (s)he does. This is one of those things.

Hah. One thing I'm fairly sure won't happen is Shepard having autodialogue along the lines of "I didn't know I was indoctrinated until now, but now I realize it!" In fact, I consider it far more likely for there to be a dialogue wheel decision between being surprised and not being surprised.

[AresKeith]

byne wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

AresKeith wrote...


And personally for me, I can't even trust something that can indoctrinate me like everyone else the Reapers had

Exactly. He admits he is the reapers... WHAT MORE DO YOU NEED PEOPLE?

Then it was his talk about Synthesis that made me say, "Nope I'm done listening to you"

The worst part about synthesis is that, despite what he says, it is not a solution to godchild's problem.

He is programmed to preserve organic life.

Synthesis removes all organic life from the galaxy and creates only organic/synthetic hybrids.

We already knew how screwed his logic is

[BleedingUranium]

FreddyCast wrote...

Sauron001 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There is no difference between destroy's philosophy in IT or literal because it is being experienced from a watsonist perspective. What I mean is that Shepard thinks the end sequence is real, therefore she thinks the consequences will be real. It is only icing on the cake that the geth and EDI wouldn't die in IT. You can't justify the decision based on a dolyist perspective. If you don't see that destroy is the only viable choice, you have been indoctrinated. Congratulations!

My Shepard will not think that the end sequence is real if IT is true; she'll see it as indoctrination, based on the clues you people have gathered up, and put those pieces together to strike out against the Catalyst illusion alone, and not the geth or EDI. I refuse to attack them and will only pick Destroy if I know it'll do nothing to them.

But every ending has uncertainty thats I think was the purpose of the orginional endings... Without certainty your decision isn't based off of meta gaming.

I believe in IT but even if i didn't I would still choose destroy or refuse because those are chances I am willing to take, not once in playthroughs did the catalyst confirm to 100% that the Geth orr EDI would die. It was specualtion on starkids part because it was an unknown.

Until the EC came out changed all that.
The Geth are no longer seen alive, only the Quarians are seen alive.
EDI's body is not in the Memorial Wall scene, meaning her boy is dead and possibly her cyberwarfare suite as well.
The Godbrat gave us what we wanted, but at the cost of our friends and our ideals (War has turned to murder and Shepard has lost his humanity)
Great Job Shepard, Now live with your decision (breathing scene)

Cost of friends? Yes. Morals? Certainly not. Everyone, everyone, including the Geth and EDI stated in no uncertain terms that they were willing to die to destroy the Reapers. Besides, this is no different from Arrival: sacrifice some to save more. Garrus even gives you a talk about that.