80611 réponses à ce sujet

[BansheeOwnage]

Xilizhra wrote...

You can't. You have to play it through from a watsonist perspective; as if you are seeing all of this for the first time. As well, Shepard is incapable (unless they change is Puzzle Theory style) of seeing the illusion. It's like lucid dreaming, except in this case you can't, because the reaper-induced "dream" is so much more potent.

No I don't. You've said it yourself, about how the surroundings in the ending are weird and illogical. I can easily take this into account in-character. I'm perfectly capable of seeing through the illusion.

If IT is true, you're perfectly allowed to pick Destroy only to win, but no matter what, your Shepard will not be aware of the illusion.

Mine will be. She'll see through the inconsistencies, remember them, and recognize the oddities of the Catalyst. She'll defeat the illusion by disbelieving it and breaking it down, not by being a smashhappy brick.

Wow... you're thick. YOU CAN'T SEE THROUGH THE HALLUCINATION. AT ALL. PERIOD. EVER.



GET IT NOW?



(Stop me before I break something. Like my head.)

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 16 octobre 2012 - 03:20 .

[BleedingUranium]

Xilizhra wrote...

Now you're going into headcanon. Shepard is not a ball of silly putty that you can mould into anything. Some things can't be changed about Shepard, or what (s)he does. This is one of those things.

Hah. One thing I'm fairly sure won't happen is Shepard having autodialogue along the lines of "I didn't know I was indoctrinated until now, but now I realize it!" In fact, I consider it far more likely for there to be a dialogue wheel decision between being surprised and not being surprised.

What? From the moment Shepard wakes up, he will understand exactly what just happened, but never before. That's how dreams work.

[byne]

Xilizhra wrote...

You can't. You have to play it through from a watsonist perspective; as if you are seeing all of this for the first time. As well, Shepard is incapable (unless they change is Puzzle Theory style) of seeing the illusion. It's like lucid dreaming, except in this case you can't, because the reaper-induced "dream" is so much more potent.

No I don't. You've said it yourself, about how the surroundings in the ending are weird and illogical. I can easily take this into account in-character. I'm perfectly capable of seeing through the illusion.

If IT is true, you're perfectly allowed to pick Destroy only to win, but no matter what, your Shepard will not be aware of the illusion.

Mine will be. She'll see through the inconsistencies, remember them, and recognize the oddities of the Catalyst. She'll defeat the illusion by disbelieving it and breaking it down, not by being a smashhappy brick.

So your Shepard is just a super special snowflake who can pick out inconsistencies while being horribly injured and not in her right mind? The entire thing relies on Shepard simply not accepting the Reaper's ideals. You can say that she realizes that synthesis and control are things indoctrinated agents have wanted, and going against those things, but saying she instantly says 'Oh. Because of my superior mental abilities, I am aware this is indoctrination, and further realize I am not even actually here' is kind of silly. You're just metagaming and projecting your reasoning onto her.

[AresKeith]

@Banshee so the IT would be kinda like Inception?

[BleedingUranium]

byne wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You can't. You have to play it through from a watsonist perspective; as if you are seeing all of this for the first time. As well, Shepard is incapable (unless they change is Puzzle Theory style) of seeing the illusion. It's like lucid dreaming, except in this case you can't, because the reaper-induced "dream" is so much more potent.

No I don't. You've said it yourself, about how the surroundings in the ending are weird and illogical. I can easily take this into account in-character. I'm perfectly capable of seeing through the illusion.

If IT is true, you're perfectly allowed to pick Destroy only to win, but no matter what, your Shepard will not be aware of the illusion.

Mine will be. She'll see through the inconsistencies, remember them, and recognize the oddities of the Catalyst. She'll defeat the illusion by disbelieving it and breaking it down, not by being a smashhappy brick.

So your Shepard is just a super special snowflake who can pick out inconsistencies while being horribly injured and not in her right mind? The entire thing relies on Shepard simply not accepting the Reaper's ideals. You can say that she realizes that synthesis and control are things indoctrinated agents have wanted, and going against those things, but saying she instantly says 'Oh. Because of my superior mental abilities, I am aware this is indoctrination, and further realize I am not even actually here' is kind of silly. You're just metagaming and projecting your reasoning onto her.

Like I said earlier, it's exactly the same as Shepard not being able to know Miranda can't do the bubble properly, even if the player does.

[BleedingUranium]

AresKeith wrote...

@Banshee so the IT would be kinda like Inception?

That's pretty much exactly what it is: Planting an idea in someone's head and making them think it was their own. And they're more vulnerable while sleeping.

[Xilizhra]

What? From the moment Shepard wakes up, he will understand exactly what just happened, but never before. That's how dreams work.

You've never lucidly dreamed?

So your Shepard is just a super special snowflake

Yes, that's kind of the point of the series.

who can pick out inconsistencies while being horribly injured and not in her right mind?

Isn't she not actually horribly injured? I thought the hypothesis was that the injuries were hallucinatory/metaphorical because "no one could survive that" regarding Harbinger's beam. It's really just fighting the indoctrination itself at this point.

The entire thing relies on Shepard simply not accepting the Reaper's ideals. You can say that she realizes that synthesis and control are things indoctrinated agents have wanted, and going against those things, but saying she instantly says 'Oh. Because of my superior mental abilities, I am aware this is indoctrination, and further realize I am not even actually here' is kind of silly. You're just metagaming and projecting your reasoning onto her.

I don't accept the Reapers' ideals. I also don't accept Destroy's ideals, and would never choose such a thing were I in my right mind. Hence, must realize that I'm not in my right mind in order to worm out through your little one-true-path-to-God scenario alive, unless the point of this is to ironcladly dictate my roleplaying as well, in which case IT can go **** itself.

[BansheeOwnage]

AresKeith wrote...

@Banshee so the IT would be kinda like Inception?

In short, yes.

[Davik Kang]

BansheeOwnage wrote...
It's not what IT is. Sorry.

Awesome I've made about 10 posts here today and this is the first response I get.  Disagree btw but it's a matter of semantics.  We don't actually disagree on what IT is.  Anyway goodnight everybody.

[BansheeOwnage]

Sauron001 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You can't. You have to play it through from a watsonist perspective; as if you are seeing all of this for the first time. As well, Shepard is incapable (unless they change is Puzzle Theory style) of seeing the illusion. It's like lucid dreaming, except in this case you can't, because the reaper-induced "dream" is so much more potent.

No I don't. You've said it yourself, about how the surroundings in the ending are weird and illogical. I can easily take this into account in-character. I'm perfectly capable of seeing through the illusion.

If IT is true, you're perfectly allowed to pick Destroy only to win, but no matter what, your Shepard will not be aware of the illusion.

Mine will be. She'll see through the inconsistencies, remember them, and recognize the oddities of the Catalyst. She'll defeat the illusion by disbelieving it and breaking it down, not by being a smashhappy brick.

aww the whole point of being the audience.... its called irony you see things the character doesn't so in the end Shepard will not realize it unless the writer allows him to.

Exactly.

[AresKeith]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

@Banshee so the IT would be kinda like Inception?

In short, yes.

Which is kinda why Destroy has that Inception type ambiguous scene?

[FreddyCast]

BleedingUranium wrote...

FreddyCast wrote...

Sauron001 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

There is no difference between destroy's philosophy in IT or literal because it is being experienced from a watsonist perspective. What I mean is that Shepard thinks the end sequence is real, therefore she thinks the consequences will be real. It is only icing on the cake that the geth and EDI wouldn't die in IT. You can't justify the decision based on a dolyist perspective. If you don't see that destroy is the only viable choice, you have been indoctrinated. Congratulations!

My Shepard will not think that the end sequence is real if IT is true; she'll see it as indoctrination, based on the clues you people have gathered up, and put those pieces together to strike out against the Catalyst illusion alone, and not the geth or EDI. I refuse to attack them and will only pick Destroy if I know it'll do nothing to them.

But every ending has uncertainty thats I think was the purpose of the orginional endings... Without certainty your decision isn't based off of meta gaming.

I believe in IT but even if i didn't I would still choose destroy or refuse because those are chances I am willing to take, not once in playthroughs did the catalyst confirm to 100% that the Geth orr EDI would die. It was specualtion on starkids part because it was an unknown.

Until the EC came out changed all that.
The Geth are no longer seen alive, only the Quarians are seen alive.
EDI's body is not in the Memorial Wall scene, meaning her boy is dead and possibly her cyberwarfare suite as well.
The Godbrat gave us what we wanted, but at the cost of our friends and our ideals (War has turned to murder and Shepard has lost his humanity)
Great Job Shepard, Now live with your decision (breathing scene)

Cost of friends? Yes. Morals? Certainly not. Everyone, everyone, including the Geth and EDI stated in no uncertain terms that they were willing to die to destroy the Reapers. Besides, this is no different from Arrival: sacrifice some to save more. Garrus even gives you a talk about that.

The Arrival DLC was different, there was no choice, no time.
In the EC, there is a cost of morals.
As I said before, it goes against the true ME theme of sacrifice. My squadmates were willing to give up their lives, at the hands of the enemies, not at my own hands without their consent.
The Geth would fight to the bitter end, but Legion would never allow Shepard to arbitrarily destroy the Geth's future.
Remember, Mordin, Thane, and Legion. That was true sacrifice.
This EC Destroy option is nothing more than Genocide.

Modifié par FreddyCast, 16 octobre 2012 - 03:29 .

[byne]

Xilizhra wrote...


I don't accept the Reapers' ideals. I also don't accept Destroy's ideals, and would never choose such a thing were I in my right mind.

Then your Shepard will fall to indoctrination. Simple as that.

The loss of EDI and the Geth are planted there by godchild to try and deter you from breaking free. If you dont have the resolve to do what it takes, no matter what losses you believe you will incur, then you have already lost.

[Hrothdane]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

You can't. You have to play it through from a watsonist perspective; as if you are seeing all of this for the first time. As well, Shepard is incapable (unless they change is Puzzle Theory style) of seeing the illusion. It's like lucid dreaming, except in this case you can't, because the reaper-induced "dream" is so much more potent.

No I don't. You've said it yourself, about how the surroundings in the ending are weird and illogical. I can easily take this into account in-character. I'm perfectly capable of seeing through the illusion.

If IT is true, you're perfectly allowed to pick Destroy only to win, but no matter what, your Shepard will not be aware of the illusion.

Mine will be. She'll see through the inconsistencies, remember them, and recognize the oddities of the Catalyst. She'll defeat the illusion by disbelieving it and breaking it down, not by being a smashhappy brick.

Wow... you're thick. YOU CAN'T SEE THROUGH THE HALLUCINATION. AT ALL. PERIOD. EVER.



GET IT NOW?



(Stop me before I break something. Like my head.)

No need for rudeness.

If Xilizhra wants to meta-game, she can do so. If she wants to try to keep it in-game, I would just say that her Shepard didn't quite know that OMG I'M BEING INDOCTRINATED specifically, but guessed that something weird was going on and that Starbinger obviously was trying to prevent her from picking destroy.

It's not classic IT, but half the people here have their own subvariant of IT anyways.

[Xilizhra]

byne wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


I don't accept the Reapers' ideals. I also don't accept Destroy's ideals, and would never choose such a thing were I in my right mind.

Then your Shepard will fall to indoctrination. Simple as that.

The loss of EDI and the Geth are planted there by godchild to try and deter you from breaking free. If you dont have the resolve to do what it takes, no matter what losses you believe you will incur, then you have already lost.

My resolve comes from the knowledge of the illusion. IT is like gambling: the trick is to know the winner in advance.

[BansheeOwnage]

Xilizhra wrote...

What? From the moment Shepard wakes up, he will understand exactly what just happened, but never before. That's how dreams work.

You've never lucidly dreamed?

So your Shepard is just a super special snowflake

Yes, that's kind of the point of the series.

No, it isn't. The point of the series is that Shepard is not "The One" or any such thing. Shepard is just a normal person; a soldier.

And no, actually, I've not lucidly dreamed, but I understand the premise. However, this is not a dream. It's a hallucination. Dream is shorthand. And because it's induced, it can't be noticed.

[lex0r11]

byne wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


I don't accept the Reapers' ideals. I also don't accept Destroy's ideals, and would never choose such a thing were I in my right mind.

Then your Shepard will fall to indoctrination. Simple as that.

The loss of EDI and the Geth are planted there by godchild to try and deter you from breaking free. If you dont have the resolve to do what it takes, no matter what losses you believe you will incur, then you have already lost.

[Hrothdane]

Xilizhra wrote...
My resolve comes from the knowledge of the illusion. IT is like gambling: the trick is to know the winner in advance.

I would say that the trick is more knowing the losers in advance when given lots of textual evidence.

[BansheeOwnage]

Xilizhra wrote...

byne wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


I don't accept the Reapers' ideals. I also don't accept Destroy's ideals, and would never choose such a thing were I in my right mind.

Then your Shepard will fall to indoctrination. Simple as that.

The loss of EDI and the Geth are planted there by godchild to try and deter you from breaking free. If you dont have the resolve to do what it takes, no matter what losses you believe you will incur, then you have already lost.

My resolve comes from the knowledge of the illusion. IT is like gambling: the trick is to know the winner in advance.

The literal ending is gambling. Shepard says so herself.

Are you willing to bet humanity's existence on it?

TIM kills himself.

[byne]

Xilizhra wrote...

byne wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


I don't accept the Reapers' ideals. I also don't accept Destroy's ideals, and would never choose such a thing were I in my right mind.

Then your Shepard will fall to indoctrination. Simple as that.

The loss of EDI and the Geth are planted there by godchild to try and deter you from breaking free. If you dont have the resolve to do what it takes, no matter what losses you believe you will incur, then you have already lost.

My resolve comes from the knowledge of the illusion. IT is like gambling: the trick is to know the winner in advance.

Well then you're gambling with the lives of EDI and the Geth, are you not? Your Shepard would pick destroy on the hunch that it wont actually happen, and if it does, regret it forever. My Shepard will pick destroy because she believes it to be the only option, and whether or not it is actually happening, will never regret a thing.

Though I'm not really sure what the motivations of our characters picking destroy has to do with anything. I dont even remember how we started talking about this.

[AresKeith]

lex0r11 wrote...

byne wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


I don't accept the Reapers' ideals. I also don't accept Destroy's ideals, and would never choose such a thing were I in my right mind.

Then your Shepard will fall to indoctrination. Simple as that.

The loss of EDI and the Geth are planted there by godchild to try and deter you from breaking free. If you dont have the resolve to do what it takes, no matter what losses you believe you will incur, then you have already lost.

That should be another opinion and kill him lol

[OneWithTheAssassins]

So do we have any idea when the IT Q&A will come out?

[BansheeOwnage]

AresKeith wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

AresKeith wrote...

@Banshee so the IT would be kinda like Inception?

In short, yes.

Which is kinda why Destroy has that Inception type ambiguous scene?

I suppose yes. And to me, neither are ambiguous if you think about them. In Inception, the top spins perfectly while in the dream. In the end, it is wobbling, which creates the illusion of an illusion. (LOL great place to say that). In the same sense, the breath scene is superficially ambiguous but then you realize it's in London and the pieces start falling in place.

[Ithurael]

AresKeith wrote...

lex0r11 wrote...

byne wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...


I don't accept the Reapers' ideals. I also don't accept Destroy's ideals, and would never choose such a thing were I in my right mind.

Then your Shepard will fall to indoctrination. Simple as that.

The loss of EDI and the Geth are planted there by godchild to try and deter you from breaking free. If you dont have the resolve to do what it takes, no matter what losses you believe you will incur, then you have already lost.

That should be another opinion and kill him lol

Well we can shoot the little brat but we all know how that story ends...everyone dies

[plfranke]

There should be a mechanic of this forum, so that if there were regular posters on a thread who all unanimously agreed that someone was an idiot, they could ban the person from posting in said thread. Then, we could implement that mechanic on xilizhra