80611 réponses à ce sujet

[BansheeOwnage]

Xilizhra wrote...
As for the other thing, the krogan still resent the salarians because the genophage is a continuous effect. With the Reapers having stopped their harvest, the harvest would not be a continuous effect.

You obviously don't understand psychology, or history.

[Xilizhra]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
As for the other thing, the krogan still resent the salarians because the genophage is a continuous effect. With the Reapers having stopped their harvest, the harvest would not be a continuous effect.

You obviously don't understand psychology, or history.

Ah, yes, because Israel, Britain and France still hold blood feuds against Germany. Oh, wait.

[BansheeOwnage]

BleedingUranium wrote...

FreddyCast wrote...

I've already explained what true sarifice is. It is not some arbitrary decision, it is not something that is done without the consent of all those involved. True sacrifice is where one is willing to give up his life for others. In the Destroy option, Shepard is not sacrificing himself, he is sacrificing the Geths and EDI without their consent just to destroy the Reapers. My squadmates would rather give up their lives at the hands of the enemy, not at my own hand. The EC makes it clear, the Destroy option is and always will be Genocide.
I won't let fear of the Reapers compromise who I am. I won't end this on the Godbrat's own terms (especially since the ABC decisions are contrary to the narrative of the story, which just proves that this is an indoctrination-induced dream).
The Destroy option is not cold hard calculas, it is cold hard murder.

In the Arrival DLC, Shepard had the chance to warn the Batarians, but that crazed woman cut him off and there was no time left to find another way. that was cold hard calculas. The destroy option gives the option to pull the trigger on someone's head (a billion times) just to make the Reapers go away, even though you have the option to refuse and fight to the bitter end, just as your crew mates wanted. Cold hard murder is cold hard murder.

Everyone, including the Geth and EDI, already said they are willing to die to defeat the Reapers. What do they do in destroy? Die to defeat the Reapers. It makes no difference who kills them, bottom line is the Reapers are dead, at the cost of the Geth and EDI.

The only reason it bothers you is because it's all of the Geth. What if the kid instead said that one billion each of Humans, Asari, Turians, Salarians, Krogan, Quarians, Geth, Drell, Volus, Elcor, and Hanar would be killed if you pick destroy? Would that change your view? It shouldn't.

That would be interesting! I wonder what would happen if it was all humans?

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 16 octobre 2012 - 04:29 .

[BleedingUranium]

Xilizhra wrote...

As for the other thing, the krogan still resent the salarians because the genophage is a continuous effect. With the Reapers having stopped their harvest, the harvest would not be a continuous effect.

If that were true, why did we have the Nuremberg trials?

And let's not even get started on almost all of the Krogan other than Wrex wanting to get revenge on the Salarians and Turians after the Genophage is cured

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 16 octobre 2012 - 04:31 .

[Xilizhra]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

As for the other thing, the krogan still resent the salarians because the genophage is a continuous effect. With the Reapers having stopped their harvest, the harvest would not be a continuous effect.

If that were true, why did we have the Nuremberg trials?

The ME equivalent is my own conversation with and subsequent deletion of the Catalyst.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 16 octobre 2012 - 04:31 .

[ThisOneIsPunny]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

ThisOneIsPunny wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...
This is my response to that.

Shepard was always willing to make the hard choices. Do you remember the option not to sacrifice the batarian relay just to delay the reapers? Oh right. Because there was no option to do that!

Apparently it's aaaalright to sympathize with million year old murderers that feel no remorse for what they do and let them go free of judgement. That has to really suck with most of the galactic community that lost loved ones to the reapers just knowing that they're still alive, that is going to sew some deep resentment in post-control. I think you can imagine where that leads.

Good point indeed. Did you read my wall of text about that very point? It works even better in synthesis, because either there is massive conflict, or everyone is brainwashed; rewritten. Which is the same as killing them.

Also, EDI has a great conversation about that, which is ironic, considering she is the poster-girl for synthesis, yet she is adamantly for destroy.

I actually didn't see it! And yes, I have similar thoughts on synthesis. It's genocide plain and simple, which is funny considering why some people turn down destroy. I can't go as far as to say it's destruction of the individual though, but if it IS brainwashing taking effect too then, welp. 

[BleedingUranium]

Xilizhra wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

As for the other thing, the krogan still resent the salarians because the genophage is a continuous effect. With the Reapers having stopped their harvest, the harvest would not be a continuous effect.

If that were true, why did we have the Nuremberg trials?

The ME equivalent is my own conversation with and subsequent deletion of the Catalyst.

No, because his equal was not at Nuremburg, that was for the people under his command. You're telling me you accept the "just following orders" excuse?

Actually, that wasn't a question, you are telling me that.

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 16 octobre 2012 - 04:33 .

[Ghrelt]

All of humanity in exchange for a permanent end to the cycle? Still worth it.

[Hrothdane]

Xilizhra wrote...
 However, the Catalyst's programming almost certainly tainted the personalities of all Reapers, making them desire to continue attacking organics.
.

Nothing is certain about the Catalyst, his programming, his directive, or how he controls the other Reapers (or even if he does directly control them). You are making assumptions based off the unverified assertions of the supposed collective intelligence of a race of beings that is known for such strong deceptive powers as to turn peoples' own thoughts and beliefs against them. He even contradicts statements and implications of other Reapers:

"We are each a nation, INDEPENDENT" --Sovereign

"Harbinger speaks of you." -- Rannoch Reaper (why would Harbinger need to tell the other Reapers of Shepard if Reapers shared consciousness?)

As a side note, I'm an English major and even I think quibling over someone's spelling on the internet is pedantic at best and trolling at worst.

[Xilizhra]

No, because his equal was not at Nuremburg, that was for the people under his command. You're telling me you accept the "just following orders" excuse?

I accept it when the ones "following orders" have literally no choice but to do so, as they're directly mind controlled by the order-giver.

[BansheeOwnage]

Xilizhra wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
As for the other thing, the krogan still resent the salarians because the genophage is a continuous effect. With the Reapers having stopped their harvest, the harvest would not be a continuous effect.

You obviously don't understand psychology, or history.

Ah, yes, because Israel, Britain and France still hold blood feuds against Germany. Oh, wait.

They're totally the only options to chose from. I guess I'm out of arguments now

Anyway, I should go.

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

Sigh. Hey guys, do I even want to know what's going on?

Ah, hell, I'm gonna address it then off to bed for me. Gonna wake up early tomorrow, take a run or something.

Xil and Freddy. I have said this again and again you do not present any new perspectives for either side. All you do is run around the same circular argument blabbering on and on.

If we wanted the same old arguments rehashed and beaten to death we would call you. But, we didn't. So, with all due respect stop ruining my favorite thread.

Thank you kindly

[FreddyCast]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

FreddyCast wrote...
I've already explained what true sarifice is. It is not some arbitrary decision, it is not something that is done without the consent of all those involved. True sacrifice is where one is willing to give up his life for others. In the Destroy option, Shepard is not sacrificing himself, he is sacrificing the Geths and EDI without their consent just to destroy the Reapers. My squadmates would rather give up their lives at the hands of the enemy, not at my own hand. The EC makes it clear, the Destroy option is and always will be Genocide.
I won't let fear of the Reapers compromise who I am. I won't end this on the Godbrat's own terms (especially since the ABC decisions are contrary to the narrative of the story, which just proves that this is an indoctrination-induced dream).
The Destroy option is not cold hard calculas, it is cold hard murder.

In the Arrival DLC, Shepard had the chance to warn the Batarians, but that crazed woman cut him off and there was no time left to find another way. that was cold hard calculas. The destroy option gives the option to pull the trigger on someone's head (a billion times) just to make the Reapers go away, even though you have the option to refuse and fight to the bitter end, just as your crew mates wanted. Cold hard murder is cold hard murder.

How is killing 300000 batarians any different that killing the geth? In fact it could be seen as worse, considering both EDI and the Geth stated they would prefer non-functionality to compromise with the reapers...

You are not getting it.
Look at Mordin, Thane, and Legion. that is true sacrfice.
If Legion knew that Shepard would choose the destroy option, he would grab him by the neck and lift him up and say "We will not let you decide our fate". Oh wait! That's what Legion does if you betray him. Again, do not cofuse the Geth's and EDI's preference of non-functionality to compromise with the Reapers as proof that they accept the EC Destroy option.
Again, in the Arrival DLC, the situation forced him into no other choice, but to unwillingly sacrifice the Batarian colony in order to sop the Reapers from taking over the entire Galaxy. And judging by the vision Shep has if he fails his mission, the reapers would have conquered everyone.
In the EC DLC, you have a choice to deny all the BS Godbrat tells you, and fight them all on our own terms. Sure, as it stands everyone dies, but it's how the Geth and EDI would have wanted it. Arbitrarily taking away the Geth's future without giving them the chance to fight for their future is morally wrong. Again, as Shepard said, if we allow this war to change us and make us turn against our friends, then "War turns into murder".

[Xilizhra]

They're totally the only options to chose from. I guess I'm out of arguments now

The thing is that old grudges don't last without continuous antagonism from both sides. Germany doesn't have this, due to obsequiously apologizing for WW2. By contrast, Japan and China are still at odds because Japan has never apologized for everything in full, and both nations continue to provoke each other.

[BansheeOwnage]

Ellythe wrote...

All of humanity in exchange for a permanent end to the cycle? Still worth it.

Agreed.

[byne]

Ellythe wrote...

All of humanity in exchange for a permanent end to the cycle? Still worth it.

Casey Hudson once said the theme of ME3 was 'victory through sacrifice,' and yet you still get people claiming they cant sacrifice EDI and the Geth for victory.

[demersel]

Xilizhra wrote...
Ah, yes, because Israel, Britain and France still hold blood feuds against Germany. Oh, wait.

Poland, Ukrain, Estonia, Lethonia still hold grudges against Russia. 

And don't forget my all time favourite grudge holders - the Chezh!


Not to mention, that the grudge the Poland have against Russia predates even the soviet union - they are cross with us since we didn't let them to take over in 1612. And the one of reasons they wanted to take over in 1612 was that we beet the **** out of them in 1242 in the first place. 

Modifié par demersel, 16 octobre 2012 - 04:44 .

[BansheeOwnage]

Xilizhra wrote...

They're totally the only options to chose from. I guess I'm out of arguments now

The thing is that old grudges don't last without continuous antagonism from both sides. Germany doesn't have this, due to obsequiously apologizing for WW2. By contrast, Japan and China are still at odds because Japan has never apologized for everything in full, and both nations continue to provoke each other.

I'm just guessing here, but it could be because Germany wasn't responsible for all that. The ****'s were.

[Xilizhra]

demersel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Ah, yes, because Israel, Britain and France still hold blood feuds against Germany. Oh, wait.

Poland, Ukrain, Estonia, Lethonia still hold grudges against Russia. 

And Russia's never been pleasant to them even after the USSR fell. It doesn't seem to have made many rapproachement efforts, at any rate.

I'm just guessing here, but it could be because Germany wasn't responsible for all that. The ****'s were.

My point exactly. The Reapers weren't responsible, the Catalyst was.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 16 octobre 2012 - 04:40 .

[BansheeOwnage]

byne wrote...

Ellythe wrote...

All of humanity in exchange for a permanent end to the cycle? Still worth it.

Casey Hudson once said the theme of ME3 was 'victory through sacrifice,' and yet you still get people claiming they cant sacrifice EDI and the Geth for victory.

Casey Hudson said a lot of things about destroy. I should make a list.

[Hrothdane]

Xilizhra wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
As for the other thing, the krogan still resent the salarians because the genophage is a continuous effect. With the Reapers having stopped their harvest, the harvest would not be a continuous effect.

You obviously don't understand psychology, or history.

Ah, yes, because Israel, Britain and France still hold blood feuds against Germany. Oh, wait.

Bad example for you. France and Germany had been holding grudges against each other since Napoleon. It took two world wars in a row to make them stop.

Germans resent France for conquering them and destroying the sovereignty of smaller states by dissolving them. Helps lead to Franco-Prussian War.

Said war leaves France so resentful of their loss that a political group emerges (revanchists) that exists purely based on a desire for revenge against Prussia. France even makes a statue representing the land they lost. This leads to their gleeful involvement in World War I.

France and the other allies (but France especially) hate Germany so much after World War I that they specifically design the Treaty of Versailles to utterly DESTORY Germany as a nation. This leads to more German resentment and World War 2.

[BleedingUranium]

FreddyCast wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

FreddyCast wrote...
I've already explained what true sarifice is. It is not some arbitrary decision, it is not something that is done without the consent of all those involved. True sacrifice is where one is willing to give up his life for others. In the Destroy option, Shepard is not sacrificing himself, he is sacrificing the Geths and EDI without their consent just to destroy the Reapers. My squadmates would rather give up their lives at the hands of the enemy, not at my own hand. The EC makes it clear, the Destroy option is and always will be Genocide.
I won't let fear of the Reapers compromise who I am. I won't end this on the Godbrat's own terms (especially since the ABC decisions are contrary to the narrative of the story, which just proves that this is an indoctrination-induced dream).
The Destroy option is not cold hard calculas, it is cold hard murder.

In the Arrival DLC, Shepard had the chance to warn the Batarians, but that crazed woman cut him off and there was no time left to find another way. that was cold hard calculas. The destroy option gives the option to pull the trigger on someone's head (a billion times) just to make the Reapers go away, even though you have the option to refuse and fight to the bitter end, just as your crew mates wanted. Cold hard murder is cold hard murder.

How is killing 300000 batarians any different that killing the geth? In fact it could be seen as worse, considering both EDI and the Geth stated they would prefer non-functionality to compromise with the reapers...

You are not getting it.
Look at Mordin, Thane, and Legion. that is true sacrfice.
If Legion knew that Shepard would choose the destroy option, he would grab him by the neck and lift him up and say "We will not let you decide our fate". Oh wait! That's what Legion does if you betray him. Again, do not cofuse the Geth's and EDI's preference of non-functionality to compromise with the Reapers as proof that they accept the EC Destroy option.
Again, in the Arrival DLC, the situation forced him into no other choice, but to unwillingly sacrifice the Batarian colony in order to sop the Reapers from taking over the entire Galaxy. And judging by the vision Shep has if he fails his mission, the reapers would have conquered everyone.
In the EC DLC, you have a choice to deny all the BS Godbrat tells you, and fight them all on our own terms. Sure, as it stands everyone dies, but it's how the Geth and EDI would have wanted it. Arbitrarily taking away the Geth's future without giving them the chance to fight for their future is morally wrong. Again, as Shepard said, if we allow this war to change us and make us turn against our friends, then "War turns into murder".

I'm only going to address part of this: You're saying that it's better everyone dies, compared to some people? Refuse is not fighting on your own terms, it's not fighting at all! It's choosing to do nothing. Where else have we seen a supporter of refuse? Kenson.

[Xilizhra]

Hrothdane wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
As for the other thing, the krogan still resent the salarians because the genophage is a continuous effect. With the Reapers having stopped their harvest, the harvest would not be a continuous effect.

You obviously don't understand psychology, or history.

Ah, yes, because Israel, Britain and France still hold blood feuds against Germany. Oh, wait.

Bad example for you. France and Germany had been holding grudges against each other since Napoleon. It took two world wars in a row to make them stop.

Germans resent France for conquering them and destroying the sovereignty of smaller states by dissolving them. Helps lead to Franco-Prussian War.

Said war leaves France so resentful of their loss that a political group emerges (revanchists) that exists purely based on a desire for revenge against Prussia. France even makes a statue representing the land they lost. This leads to their gleeful involvement in World War I.

France and the other allies (but France especially) hate Germany so much after World War I that they specifically design the Treaty of Versailles to utterly DESTORY Germany as a nation. This leads to more German resentment and World War 2.

Again, both sides kept on provoking each other and continually renewing the lasting feud; it wasn't one feud that made them hate each other while neither side did anything to the other.

[NebuchadnezzaRT]

FreddyCast wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

FreddyCast wrote...
I've already explained what true sarifice is. It is not some arbitrary decision, it is not something that is done without the consent of all those involved. True sacrifice is where one is willing to give up his life for others. In the Destroy option, Shepard is not sacrificing himself, he is sacrificing the Geths and EDI without their consent just to destroy the Reapers. My squadmates would rather give up their lives at the hands of the enemy, not at my own hand. The EC makes it clear, the Destroy option is and always will be Genocide.
I won't let fear of the Reapers compromise who I am. I won't end this on the Godbrat's own terms (especially since the ABC decisions are contrary to the narrative of the story, which just proves that this is an indoctrination-induced dream).
The Destroy option is not cold hard calculas, it is cold hard murder.

In the Arrival DLC, Shepard had the chance to warn the Batarians, but that crazed woman cut him off and there was no time left to find another way. that was cold hard calculas. The destroy option gives the option to pull the trigger on someone's head (a billion times) just to make the Reapers go away, even though you have the option to refuse and fight to the bitter end, just as your crew mates wanted. Cold hard murder is cold hard murder.

How is killing 300000 batarians any different that killing the geth? In fact it could be seen as worse, considering both EDI and the Geth stated they would prefer non-functionality to compromise with the reapers...

You are not getting it.
Look at Mordin, Thane, and Legion. that is true sacrfice.
If Legion knew that Shepard would choose the destroy option, he would grab him by the neck and lift him up and say "We will not let you decide our fate". Oh wait! That's what Legion does if you betray him. Again, do not cofuse the Geth's and EDI's preference of non-functionality to compromise with the Reapers as proof that they accept the EC Destroy option.
Again, in the Arrival DLC, the situation forced him into no other choice, but to unwillingly sacrifice the Batarian colony in order to sop the Reapers from taking over the entire Galaxy. And judging by the vision Shep has if he fails his mission, the reapers would have conquered everyone.
In the EC DLC, you have a choice to deny all the BS Godbrat tells you, and fight them all on our own terms. Sure, as it stands everyone dies, but it's how the Geth and EDI would have wanted it. Arbitrarily taking away the Geth's future without giving them the chance to fight for their future is morally wrong. Again, as Shepard said, if we allow this war to change us and make us turn against our friends, then "War turns into murder".

"We will not let you decide our fate" 

So instead of just deciding the fate of EDI and the Geth (Literal) you somehow surmise that rewriting evolution, genetics and free will is better?

Also, fun fact, every single Shepard recieves that vision regardless of whether they failed or successfully delayed the Reapers during Arrival. It plays subliminally (with more scenes) when Object Rho first touches Shepard's mind.

[AresKeith]

byne wrote...

Ellythe wrote...

All of humanity in exchange for a permanent end to the cycle? Still worth it.

Casey Hudson once said the theme of ME3 was 'victory through sacrifice,' and yet you still get people claiming they cant sacrifice EDI and the Geth for victory.

Well it is kinda a slap in the face when you made peace between Geth and Quarians proving the Catalyst's claim about Synthetics wrong and the game goes "nope"

And as Banshee said Casey said alot of things

Modifié par AresKeith, 16 octobre 2012 - 04:45 .