80611 réponses à ce sujet

[FreddyCast]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

FreddyCast wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

FreddyCast wrote...

they are willing to die in order to stop the Reapers, but onyl if they decide to sacrifice themselves, NOT let someone else do it for them without their consent. Genocide is Genocide. You can't reason your way out of that.
And yes I would still not choose the Destroy option if it meant that I had to kill my friends by my own hands just to destroy the Reapers. What did Shepard say? "WE FIGHT or we die". Choosing the Destroy option (or the Reaper "turn off" switch) means you don't fight, instead you COMPROMISE with the Reapers. Which is what you and Banshee said yourselves.

What the ****, that's like wrong in eight different ways!

They already decided they'd be willing to sacrfice themselves before the final battle! Every single individual in the entire fleet at Earth is willing to sacrifice themselves if need be. Based you your logic, the Captain of a ship can't choose to sacrifice his own ship and crew in a particular situation unless he asks each crew member if they're okay with dying for whatever they're sacrificing the ship for

Not genocide.

No compromise.

Oh boy,
The crew members of a ship know what they are signing up to. If there is no other choice, but to kamikaze themselves towards the enemy, then the Captain is right to make the command to sacrifice themselves and all crew members would know and understand his decision.

There is no difference here. EDI is a Normandy crewmember. The geth are interlinked and reached the consensus that they would die to kill the reapers...

There is a difference. The Geth would die FIGHTING for their future to kill the Reapers.
EDI would risk non-functionality FIGHTING for Joker to kill the Reapers.
Choosing EC Destroy option means you are arbitrarily taking away both the Geth's and EDI's chance to fight for what they believe and hold dear to. You literally choose their fate and kill all the Geth. You kill their future, not the Reapers. You do the Reaper's job for them. Both EDI and the Geth would rather die fighting the enemy, than die by Shep's own hands.
Shepard fights for freedom, he fights for everyone, including Geth and EDI, to choose THEIR OWN FATE.

Modifié par FreddyCast, 16 octobre 2012 - 05:22 .

[masster blaster]

Xil was talking to freddy because he is thinking Literaly, but that goes for IT. After Shepard wakes up, who knows how many people have really died. Heck our old squad mates could be dying for all we know.

If the endings are an illusion, and everyone we know and got to love is dying while Shepard is in la la land after he/she picks a choice, then what then.

Let the others fight a battle, that can't be won with out Shepard. Your Shepard is the galaxys Hero, and champion if Shepard dies the galaxy dies. If Shepard refuses the galaxy gvies up the fight. If Shepard fights, the galaxy fight back.

Shepard= the galaxy= death to the Reapers.

[Xilizhra]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In IT the whole room is a metaphor for whether to accept the Reapers' logic or not, the kid can't make Destroy not be there. He can make it sound like a bad idea, but he can't make it go away.

Actually, it can make the option go away, under IT, if you have low EMS and kept the Collector base. Then, all there'll be is Control.

While that is a good point, when you think about it, it makes sense: A Shepard who chose to save the base is in the Control mindset already, so in that case the kid can't get rid of the Control option.

Which, to me, points to a way for all philosophies to work out in IT in some way. If Shepard has to be able to leave, Control has to have some level of validity. Synthesis I'm less sure about.

[dorktainian]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

FreddyCast wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

FreddyCast wrote...

they are willing to die in order to stop the Reapers, but onyl if they decide to sacrifice themselves, NOT let someone else do it for them without their consent. Genocide is Genocide. You can't reason your way out of that.
And yes I would still not choose the Destroy option if it meant that I had to kill my friends by my own hands just to destroy the Reapers. What did Shepard say? "WE FIGHT or we die". Choosing the Destroy option (or the Reaper "turn off" switch) means you don't fight, instead you COMPROMISE with the Reapers. Which is what you and Banshee said yourselves.

What the ****, that's like wrong in eight different ways!

They already decided they'd be willing to sacrfice themselves before the final battle! Every single individual in the entire fleet at Earth is willing to sacrifice themselves if need be. Based you your logic, the Captain of a ship can't choose to sacrifice his own ship and crew in a particular situation unless he asks each crew member if they're okay with dying for whatever they're sacrificing the ship for

Not genocide.

No compromise.

Oh boy,
The crew members of a ship know what they are signing up to. If there is no other choice, but to kamikaze themselves towards the enemy, then the Captain is right to make the command to sacrifice themselves and all crew members would know and understand his decision.

There is no difference here. EDI is a Normandy crewmember. The geth are interlinked and reached the consensus that they would die to kill the reapers...

err... EDI is software on board the normandy.  she may be an AI but she is still just a part of the ship.  she's not the body running round with enhanced cameltoe.  she is just software.  plus who gave her the right to take dr evas body?

as far as sacrifice is concerned.  i'm sure if shep was faced by harbinger in the normandy with a chance of taking it out - he'd go for 'ramming speed' and the crew would be totally in support of his actions if it meant taking the space squid out.

but running towards a beam of light like headless chickens while being target fodder for squidy?  err... shep thats a really bad idea.  Anderson should have been slapped for that idea.

[masster blaster]

Okay here you go Xil

Pick either Control, and Synthesis Shepard get's Indoctrinated unless you either saved the ME1 queen, and dies because she protected Shepard from the Reaper Indoctrination fully fledged membership.

Or if you didn't save her, then Liara will die. She can meld her mind into your Shepard, and that will tell the fans your actions can kill your loved ones, and doom the galaxy.

Also maybe if you kept the Collector base, and picked Control the Reapers gain ful Control of Shepard. The Reaper brain= the players control.
The heart= Shepard 's willpower.

[Bill Casey]

Have we discussed how altering someone's eyes is typically how one conveys brainwashing in a visual medium?

[FreddyCast]

masster blaster wrote...

Freddy, you thinking Literaly, not IT. " Yes people will die, but we will fight you non the less. We will fight. We will sacrifce, and we will find a way." Wars have dirty little secrets Freddy, I bet you didn't know that when America droped that Atomic bome, they knew what was going to happen, but people died just to stop a war.

Yes people will die, but what are they dying for. Heros in the past died so others can live, and sometimes it happence. We can't save everyone because if we could, then the world will be a nice place to live, but it's not. That's only if you think Literaly Freddy.

Yes, I know that in IT the decisions are metaphors. But how do you think we argue against the Control and Synthesis? By showing non-ITers just how ridiculous and contrary to the ME lore the COnrtol/Synthesis are if taken literally.
I am doing the same thing with the Destroy option. I am showing you all just how wrong the EC Destroy option is by showing you that literally it is contrary to the ME theme of true sacrifice and because the Destroy option is a metaphor, it is also a trap for Shepard to go against his own ideals, just as the Control/Synthesis is against Shepard's ideals.
My arguments against the Destroy option being  the right choice in IT still stands.

[Hrothdane]

Bill Casey wrote...

Have we discussed how altering someone's eyes is typically how one conveys brainwashing in a visual medium?

Probably, but here is a whole page of evidence for you.

[BleedingUranium]

Xilizhra wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

In IT the whole room is a metaphor for whether to accept the Reapers' logic or not, the kid can't make Destroy not be there. He can make it sound like a bad idea, but he can't make it go away.

Actually, it can make the option go away, under IT, if you have low EMS and kept the Collector base. Then, all there'll be is Control.

While that is a good point, when you think about it, it makes sense: A Shepard who chose to save the base is in the Control mindset already, so in that case the kid can't get rid of the Control option.

Which, to me, points to a way for all philosophies to work out in IT in some way. If Shepard has to be able to leave, Control has to have some level of validity. Synthesis I'm less sure about.

Right. The way I see it for IT, and the themes in general, are:

-Synthesis, like Saren, is fully agreeing with the Reapers and their methods. There would be no way out of this.
-Control, like TIM, is a different kind of indoc, as he still thinks he's fighting the Reapers. There would be a chance to redeem yourself, but may or may not have to die.
-Refuse is choosing not to act, but (as per the Puzzle Theory), maybe your squadmate and allies could save you (Rachni, Liara, Javik, etc), but at a cost.
-Destroy is staying determined to fight the Reapers and completely rejecting their methods and logic. Shepard would be most able to fight and such after this one.

[Bill Casey]

Destroy is a metaphor for wanting to use the crucible to destroy the reapers...
You wanted to use the crucible to destroy the reapers, you talked to the catalyst, and now you no longer want to use the crucible to destroy the reapers...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 16 octobre 2012 - 05:32 .

[masster blaster]

Freddy so is refuse. Kenson refused to let the astroid take out the relay, and let the Reapers come. She did nothing, as Shepard is in refuse. Waitinf for the world to end. Yes puzzle theory I know, but refuse is just giving up, and not wanting to get out. Destroy on the other hand will breake the hold they have on your Shepard, but only for a little while. Or Leviathan will use it's orbs to take Control over Shepard and kick his mind back into his body.

[demersel]

Bill Casey wrote...

Have we discussed how altering someone's eyes is typically how one conveys brainwashing in a visual medium?

Yet there is Dune....

[Xilizhra]

-Synthesis, like Saren, is fully agreeing with the Reapers and their methods. There would be no way out of this.
-Control, like TIM, is a different kind of indoc, as he still thinks he's fighting the Reapers. There would be a chance to redeem yourself, but may or may not have to die.
-Refuse is choosing not to act, but (as per the Puzzle Theory), maybe your squadmate and allies could save you (Rachni, Liara, Javik, etc), but at a cost.
-Destroy is staying determined to fight the Reapers and completely rejecting their methods and logic. Shepard would be most able to fight and such after this one.

I'd put Synthesis on the same level as Control in this case. Also, so that the ending would actually have a choice... with either Control or Synthesis, it could be harder to break free from the Catalyst, but when you did, you'd also have an option at the end to just free the Reapers from the control of the Catalyst or Harbinger or whoever, in addition to just destroying them. Hence preserving the end choice while eliminating the weird method of giving it to you that the literalist one does.

[masster blaster]

Screw this. I gave you what you wanted Xil, a way for Synthesis, and Control for the same equal choice as Destroy is. Night everyone.

[FreddyCast]

Bill Casey wrote...

It's a metaphor for wanting to use the crucible to destroy the reapers...
You wanted to use the crucible to destroy the reapers, you talked to the catalyst, and now you no longer want to use the crucible to destroy the reapers...

Whoever said I didn't want to use the Crucible. From an IT perspective. The whole decision Chamber is contrary to the narrative of the story, thus it's not real, it's a dream.
Refusal is the only answer.
I want Shep to break free from the indoctrination-induced dream by denying all the options the Godbrat presents to him, and wake up in the rubble so he can finish the job and use the Crucible properly.
However, to be honest, this whole ending was one big mess up, even if taken in an IT perspective.
A new ending, starting from waking up in the rubble, is ME3's only way to be saved.

[masster blaster]

Freddy breath scene. Rubble. On Earth. I mean you already got your answer.

[Bill Casey]

You don't want to use the crucible to destroy the reapers...
You think it will kill your friends...

[FreddyCast]

masster blaster wrote...

Freddy so is refuse. Kenson refused to let the astroid take out the relay, and let the Reapers come. She did nothing, as Shepard is in refuse. Waitinf for the world to end. Yes puzzle theory I know, but refuse is just giving up, and not wanting to get out. Destroy on the other hand will breake the hold they have on your Shepard, but only for a little while. Or Leviathan will use it's orbs to take Control over Shepard and kick his mind back into his body.

The way BW presented the refusal ending, yes, it looks like Shepard just gives up. But really, Shepard and the whole Galaxy would have fought to the bitter end or their military might would have given them the victory (if taken literally) or Shep would have woken up and finished the job using the Crucible properly (if taken from an IT perspective).

[BatmanTurian]

FreddyCast wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

FreddyCast wrote...

they are willing to die in order to stop the Reapers, but onyl if they decide to sacrifice themselves, NOT let someone else do it for them without their consent. Genocide is Genocide. You can't reason your way out of that.
And yes I would still not choose the Destroy option if it meant that I had to kill my friends by my own hands just to destroy the Reapers. What did Shepard say? "WE FIGHT or we die". Choosing the Destroy option (or the Reaper "turn off" switch) means you don't fight, instead you COMPROMISE with the Reapers. Which is what you and Banshee said yourselves.

What the ****, that's like wrong in eight different ways!

They already decided they'd be willing to sacrfice themselves before the final battle! Every single individual in the entire fleet at Earth is willing to sacrifice themselves if need be. Based you your logic, the Captain of a ship can't choose to sacrifice his own ship and crew in a particular situation unless he asks each crew member if they're okay with dying for whatever they're sacrificing the ship for

Not genocide.

No compromise.

Oh boy,
The crew members of a ship know what they are signing up to. If there is no other choice, but to kamikaze themselves towards the enemy, then the Captain is right to make the command to sacrifice themselves and all crew members would know and understand his decision.
In EC DLC, you HAVE A CHOICE. Why do you want to compromise with the Godbrat on any of the decisions he gives you if you have the choice to refuse him. You guys know it's wrong, yet your only excuse is "Victory at any and all costs". I would agree, if that stament also meant that those making those tough decisions affect themselves and not others. You can't take away another's life without his consent just b/c you believe it will end the threat. Well then, kiss your humanity goodbye.

There is only the illusion of choice if IT is true. The only other choices are two that follow reaper values and one where you do nothing but say you did absolutely everything you could to stop Starbinger (oh wait, you didn't. You didn't even make a choice. Great job.)

No, if you were a true supporter of IT, you wouldn't be talking like this. In IT, the Geth and EDI are still alive, so destroy doesn't even kill them because the ending is a hallucination that affects noone else in the real world except Shepard, thus your argument is null. Please try again.

Modifié par BatmanTurian, 16 octobre 2012 - 05:43 .

[Bill Casey]

FreddyCast wrote...

or Shep would have woken up and finished the job using the Crucible properly (if taken from an IT perspective).

Nope...
Your opinion has been altered subliminally...

[FreddyCast]

masster blaster wrote...

Freddy breath scene. Rubble. On Earth. I mean you already got your answer.

It's only in the Destroy option, which to me, b/c of the changes in EC, is morally wrong and contrary to ME theme of true sacrifice.

[BatmanTurian]

FreddyCast wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Freddy breath scene. Rubble. On Earth. I mean you already got your answer.

It's only in the Destroy option, which to me, b/c of the changes in EC, is morally wrong and contrary to ME theme of true sacrifice.

it doesn't matter because in IT  NO ONE ACTUALLY DIES IN THE ENDING EXCEPT SHEPARD.

[demersel]

FreddyCast wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Freddy breath scene. Rubble. On Earth. I mean you already got your answer.

It's only in the Destroy option, which to me, b/c of the changes in EC, is morally wrong and contrary to ME theme of true sacrifice.

Well, tough luck, cause it's there. 

[Xilizhra]

BatmanTurian wrote...

FreddyCast wrote...

masster blaster wrote...

Freddy breath scene. Rubble. On Earth. I mean you already got your answer.

It's only in the Destroy option, which to me, b/c of the changes in EC, is morally wrong and contrary to ME theme of true sacrifice.

it doesn't matter because in IT  NO ONE ACTUALLY DIES IN THE ENDING EXCEPT SHEPARD.

Wait, why are you killing Shepard here?

[FreddyCast]

BatmanTurian wrote...

FreddyCast wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

FreddyCast wrote...

they are willing to die in order to stop the Reapers, but onyl if they decide to sacrifice themselves, NOT let someone else do it for them without their consent. Genocide is Genocide. You can't reason your way out of that.
And yes I would still not choose the Destroy option if it meant that I had to kill my friends by my own hands just to destroy the Reapers. What did Shepard say? "WE FIGHT or we die". Choosing the Destroy option (or the Reaper "turn off" switch) means you don't fight, instead you COMPROMISE with the Reapers. Which is what you and Banshee said yourselves.

What the ****, that's like wrong in eight different ways!

They already decided they'd be willing to sacrfice themselves before the final battle! Every single individual in the entire fleet at Earth is willing to sacrifice themselves if need be. Based you your logic, the Captain of a ship can't choose to sacrifice his own ship and crew in a particular situation unless he asks each crew member if they're okay with dying for whatever they're sacrificing the ship for

Not genocide.

No compromise.

Oh boy,
The crew members of a ship know what they are signing up to. If there is no other choice, but to kamikaze themselves towards the enemy, then the Captain is right to make the command to sacrifice themselves and all crew members would know and understand his decision.
In EC DLC, you HAVE A CHOICE. Why do you want to compromise with the Godbrat on any of the decisions he gives you if you have the choice to refuse him. You guys know it's wrong, yet your only excuse is "Victory at any and all costs". I would agree, if that stament also meant that those making those tough decisions affect themselves and not others. You can't take away another's life without his consent just b/c you believe it will end the threat. Well then, kiss your humanity goodbye.

There is only the illusion of choice if IT is true. The only other choices are two that follow reaper values and one where you do nothing but say you did absolutely everything you could to stop Starbinger (oh wait, you didn't. You didn't even make a choice. Great job.)

No, if you were a true supporter of IT, you wouldn't be talking like this. In IT, the Geth and EDI are still alive, so destroy doesn't even kill them because the ending is a hallucination that affects noone else in the real world except Shepard, thus your argument is null. Please try again.

Sure, if Destroy was the only viable way of breaking free from indoctrination-induced dream, the Geth and EDI would be alive, but you would have compromised your ideals, b/c then it would show that Shepard would be willing to murder his own friends just to achieve victory. That's is not the real Shepard.
Again, Shep said that if we allowed this war to turn on our friends then "war turns into murder".
I am only keeping true to Shepard's ideals, that is why the Destroy option is wrong. Refusal is the only way to break free, that is my view of the IT.