80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Ithurael]

Restrider wrote...

FreddyCast wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Then I suppose my theory will be different, because I would never in ten thousand years pick Destroy on its own "merits." I'll find a way for Shepard to prove her own indoctrination to herself.

So be it.

The outcome is inevitable.

You will succumb and ascend. Or you will be annihilated.

You will be raised to a new existence.


We will bring your species into harmony with our own.

Preserve Xilizhra's body if possible...

I too believe that the Destroy option is a compromise and contrary to ME theme of true sacrifice (all because the EC changed the Destroy ending).
To me, refuse is the only option, despite BW giving you the middle finger for refusing Godbrat's nonsense.
I'm going to beat the Reapers on MY TERMS, whether BW likes it or not.

QFT

Refuse is the only time shepard acts like shepard during the ending

ME was about defining an existance that made its own place without the intervention of reaper or alien tech.

The entire ending is a massive compromise that shifts the central conflict, subverting the protagonist, and making starkid the main protagonist because organic life is in danger of being wiped out by the synthetic life they create.

Basically, the ending makes it so that we the organic civilizations are the bad guys because its our fault that synthetics rebel. Now we need to 'find a new solution' to the Creator vs Created threat - wait...wasn't the entire story about trying to stop the reapers from killing us? Oh yeah...<_<

All the choices (at face value at least) solve the starkids problem of creator vs created.
Synthesis - the divide is gone and everyone is happy w/e
Control - reapers still present to protect organic life w/e
Destroy - all synthetics killed, organic life safe for another thousand or so years w/e

/rant

Modifié par Ithurael, 16 octobre 2012 - 03:06 .

[ElSuperGecko]

FreddyCast wrote...
It's not about phoning them to see if it's "cool with them". It's about staying true to Shepard's ideals, which you seem to want to abandon just to destroy the Reapers no matter who gets in your way, friend or foe.

woah woah woah... staying true to "Shepard's ideals"?

Which Shepard are we talking about here?

The Shepard who sacrificed the Council to concentrate the attack on Sovereign?

The Shepard who destroyed the Geth Heretics?

The Shepard who shot Mordin in the back to gain Salarian AND Krogan support?

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

ElSuperGecko wrote...

FreddyCast wrote...
It's not about phoning them to see if it's "cool with them". It's about staying true to Shepard's ideals, which you seem to want to abandon just to destroy the Reapers no matter who gets in your way, friend or foe.

woah woah woah... staying true to "Shepard's ideals"?

Which Shepard are we talking about here?

The Shepard who sacrificed the Council to concentrate the attack on Sovereign?

The Shepard who destroyed the Geth Heretics?

The Shepard who shot Mordin in the back to gain Salarian AND Krogan support?

Dont forget Arrival where Shepard no matter if Paragon or Renegade sacrifices 300.000 batarians to slow down the Reapers.

Or the Shepard who had to leave a crew member behind on Virmire.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Shepard only chooses to kill EDI & Geth if you choose to believe what your enemy tells you.

Why would you believe him? He's only trying to sway you from making the choice that will make you break free from indoctrination.

If you believe him (that you would kill EDI & the Geth), and thus refuse, the Reaper overlord has succesfully changed your mind and stopped you from doing what you came there to do.

(Yes, EDI & Geth are prepared to die to defeat the Reapers, I know, just giving another argument.)

Restrider wrote...

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I proudly present the results of the fifth poll and would also like to remind you that the sixth poll and my long-time survey regarding the first-playthrough chioces are opened for votes.

RR, for the 'decision chamber resembling the London beam' bit, this picture is good:



Lots of cool IT reference material can be found here. (Parabolee's blog)

Also, what we -really- need in addition to the IT backbone (as some kind of addendum), is a complete list of quotes (and there are a ton of them) that support destroy, or go against control/synthesis like scenarios, or mention dreams, nightmares or waking up. There's a LOT.

I am going to compile this list. I will make a topic in the IT group for that purpose.

I am hereby asking each and every one of you to submit dialogue that falls under these categories in the appropriate thread in the IT group, so I don't have to dig through pages and pages of this thread trying to find the relevant posts.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Let's compile a list of all the quotes that support IT

[Davik Kang]

masster blaster wrote...

Guys I was plauing Assassins Crees 2, and it hit me. We already know that we are playing as Desmon, and he goes into the animas to look at what his ansestor did. Yet we play as Ezio, and when we get to the end. ( sorry but spoiler aleart if you haven't played it yet), but when your talking to Juno I believe, she is giving the message to Desmon like she knew he was watching. 

Let's look at ME3 for a bit. Shepard is our vessal. Shepard is our puppet and we're pulling his/her strings, and when Anderson says " They are controlling you." He looks behind TIM's shoulder, and looks like he is talking to Shepard, yet we are Shepard, so he is talking to us because Shepard doesn't know what's really happening, but we do.

That's what"s happenning at the end. Shepard( us, not game Shepard us) is being Indoctrinated. The Reapers know that game Shepard is already being Controlled by something else. Something far more superior to the Reapers.

What I am trying to say is. The brat knows that a good portion of the gamers( BW) can't kill the Geth, or EDI, so the Catalyst presents Control, and Synthesis. It wants one of thesis chocies to be picked so it can have Shepard all to himself.

Also if we refuse to kill the Reapers, then we fail. It's a test right, so if we Shepard give up, then the galaxy in real life dies. Yes puzzle theory, but what if it's Destroy only. Think about it. We have three endings that go against Destroy. Bioware wants the fans to pick the other three because they appel to the other players own mind.

Somewhere along the road We ( Shepard) are going to have to face the nightmer and wake up. Hence the endings. We " wake up"

You know a lot of the time you are a genius.  This got me thinking... I have this idea that the Catalyst scene is an amalgamation of lots of different information being passed into Shepard's head while she's hallucinating.  The sources being, amongst other things, what she can see, and what she can 'hear' in her head (Reaper voice).  But what if there's more?  For example, because what she sees and hears is influenced by several things, what if some of these things are also other voices?  For example, what if Anderson is actually saying "wake up!  Shot the damn tube" back in the real world?  And what if TIM is shouting "grab the conduit Shepard.  You can control them all!"  This makes sense with the tinted slides too.

And it can still fit with IT.  What if it's ground troops yelling these things?  What if Anderson and TIM are figemtns of her conscience, and her good conscience is telling her to "wake up", while her bad conscience is telling her to change the plan?


 

smokingotter1 wrote...


I would take a different view. Indoctrination takes control of the limbic system which controls the prefrontal cortex which is responsible for decision making. It's part of the human brain not the mind entirely.

Throughout the three games you the player control Shepard's limbic system, namely his movement, decision making, but it's ultimately Commander Shepard, female/male, paragon/renage who provides explanation for why they are making that decision. Ever make a decision without knowing why? 

The reapers are fighting for control for Shepard's mind, not with Shepard who without player intervention would probably have fallen awhile ago to the reapers. That is why Shepard moves slugglishly, the reapers strip the player of Shepard's HUD display, and why the decision chamber aerial view looks like a Mass Effect discussion wheel.

When Shepard is in the decision chamber his mind is finally open to new possibilities thanks to the reapers and indoctrination which acts like a catalyst (see what I did there). But the player still controls Shepard, you're the last line of defense. 

So what really happens in control/synthesis? No one knows, you surrendered your avatar in that universe, Shepard belongs to the reapers now, enjoy a nice slid show the reapers prepared for you.

This got me thinking too. Imagine if you like that the ending is like zooming into Shepard's mind.  First we escape Earth (reality).  Then we are in Shepard's mind (the Citadel scene resembles a brain).  Then we come so close to Shepard's consciousness that we are like a pinpoint, like the little arrow at the centre of the decision wheel.  This would make sense as to why the Chamber resembles a giant decision wheel.

Note also that Synthesis is beyond the back of, and lower down than, the other choices... it is beyond the normal decision wheel if you like.  It is a choice we normally cannot make... it is the choice of a god... or of insanity.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 16 octobre 2012 - 03:27 .

[ajk_Jack]

 I'm going to be posting a blog entry sometime in the coming days concerning a few things that have been rattling around in my head for a while that need to be released. Most of it is going to be IT-related, but some will be about ME story structure and other analysis. If anyone wants to read it, I'll post a link when its finished. 

Modifié par ajk_Jack, 16 octobre 2012 - 03:31 .

[ajk_Jack]

Davik Kang wrote...

This got me thinking too. Imagine if you like that the ending is like zooming into Shepard's mind.  First we escape Earth (reality).  Then we are in Shepard's mind (the Citadel scene resembles a brain).  Then we come so close to Shepard's consciousness that we are like a pinpoint, like the little arrow at the centre of the decision wheel.  This would make sense as to why the Chamber resembles a giant decision wheel.

Note also that Synthesis is beyond the back of, and lower down than, the other choices... it is beyond the normal decision wheel if you like.  It is a choice we normally cannot make... it is the choice of a god... or of insanity.

I like this. However, I see the Synthesis as either the 'last resort' choice (which would fit in with what you said) or as the most prominant choice in Shepard's head, because the path to Synthesis is the most obvious, clear and simple.

[Xilizhra]

1. If this is in Shepard's mind, Destroy is going to always be an option. It's NOT that Catalyst WANTS you to pick it, its that it can't HELP it being picked. It always needs to be a valid option in Shepard's mind ("I know you wanted to Destroy us"), in order for an illusion to stand at all. But... it can lie to you. Or at least it can say things in a way that will make you believe things you wouldn't otherwise believe it before meeting it...

But Destroy isn't always an option.

[Xilizhra]

If Shepard picks Destroy, he gets up and continues the fight.

And... Shepard will have been judged worthy for ascension, becomes the core of a new Reaper, and then the Reapers kill everyone anyway. If they knew about the Crucible, and if it was ever a threat to them at all, there'd be no reason to let it continue to exist.

[Restrider]

magnetite wrote...

FreddyCast wrote...

It's only in the Destroy option, which to me, b/c of the changes in EC, is morally wrong and contrary to ME theme of true sacrifice.

If people believe what the Catalyst is saying (eg. all your synthetic friends will die, you included because you're partly synthetic) then destroy may seem like a really bad choice.

The thing is do not trust the Catalyst. he's just a Reaper in disguise. A ghostly child from Earth which is one of the symptoms of indoctrination (ghostly prescences). He's trying to get you to pick anything *but* the destroy option based on his words. 

As I stated earlier, at my first playthrough I knew that there is something fishy. Furthermore, the Kid by confirming that he is aligned to the Reapers lost any credibility. So why would you believe that the Destroy option presented by the Kid would actually Destroy the Reapers? Couldn't it be some kind of double trap using your lust for revenge to get a foothold in your mind?
Rejecting the Kid in its entirity seems - at first - better, since compromising - even a little bit - with Reaper logic is bad idea in the MEU.
Given the breath scene and Liara's VI speech though, I think Destroy seems to be the right decision.
But if you do not meta-game (as I did at my first playthrough) Refuse seems even more consistent than Destroy until Refuse changes its tone and turns into some kind of "No Country For Old Men"-ending.

[Xilizhra]

SwobyJ wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

1. If this is in Shepard's mind, Destroy is going to always be an option. It's NOT that Catalyst WANTS you to pick it, its that it can't HELP it being picked. It always needs to be a valid option in Shepard's mind ("I know you wanted to Destroy us"), in order for an illusion to stand at all. But... it can lie to you. Or at least it can say things in a way that will make you believe things you wouldn't otherwise believe it before meeting it...

But Destroy isn't always an option.

Huh? Yes it is. Always, in all endings.

You just fail to save everything, and Shepard, with low-EMS, but even then the Reapers are destroyed.

No it isn't. If you have low EMS and Shepard kept the Collector base, Control is the only option.

[Xilizhra]

My whole point is that its another Reaper trap. Just like the Citadel. Just like the Mass Relays.

Then why would any option be a way out at all? Why would the Reapers leave any hope of escape?

[Xilizhra]

That does make some sense. I think Control is possible but foolhardy (according to the narrative of the game). Shepard could still exist there.

And if that's the case, Control should offer options upon waking up not provided by Destroy, possibly involving freeing the Reapers (if not just controlling them in reality). Though I believe Synthesis should do the same.

ALWAYS offer a choice. It's how humans operate.

But why does any choice have to be genuine?

[Humakt83]

Some quotes and their explanations:

---------------------------------------
"This nightmare never ends." - Liara T'Soni

"Hell it won't. We get to this artifact and we can all wake up" - Commander Shepard
---------------------------------------

"Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology. Synthetics in turn, will finally have full understanding of organics." - Child

Replace words synthetic with Reaper if you want to understand the clause fully.

-----------------------------------------

"But there will be peace?" - Commander Shepard

"The cycle will end, the Reapers will cease their harvest, and civilizations preserved in their form will be connected to all of us." - Child

This is very clever wordplay. It sounds like a good thing initially but when you dissect it:

"The cycle will end, the Reapers will cease their harvest", refers to this particular cycle not the cycles themselves. The Reapers will cease their harvest until next cycle. Cycles will continue.

"and civilizations preserved in their form"

This actually refers that civilizations will be preserved in Reaper form, not in their original forms.

"will be connected to all of us"

The reapers are connected to each other so the civilization which becomes a Reaper will be connected to the rest. "We are each a nation - independent, free of all weakness." - Sovereign.

Notice that the Child does not answer Shepard's question.

Modifié par Humakt83, 16 octobre 2012 - 04:23 .