80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Dwailing]

Xilizhra wrote...

Huh, I just had an interesting thought. Harbinger is on the right side. Destroy is on the right side. Now, assuming that this is a true hallucination (Meaning that Shepard is "awake," but not seeing things as they are.), that means that Destroy is right below Harby. This adds extra symbolism to Destroy vs Reject. In Reject, you reject the Star-Brat, either by giving a speech, or by shooting him. However, in Destroy, you could be directly attacking Harbinger. Now, this is where it gets interesting. By attacking Star-Brat, it could be that Shepard is "accepting" that Star-Brat is real, and he's the problem. However, by choosing Destroy, you're attacking the source of the indoctrination directly, and rejecting the hallucination rather than the choice. Does this make sense?

Do you know what I find really annoying about this post? It wouldn't matter a damn where Harbinger was. If Harbinger's near Destroy, it's because Destroy attacks it; if Harbinger is near Control or Synthesis, it's because Shepard is going to Harbinger and succumbing. You'd assume a meaning for IT regardless, and this is the case for a lot of other pieces of evidence.

Harbinger is by Destroy because THAT'S WHERE HE WAS WHEN HE SHOT YOU.  He was "standing" to the right of the beam.  I'm a subscriber to the idea that the final choice is Shepard in a true hallucination, meaning that Shepard is "awake," but is having his perceptions altered by Harbinger.  In this context, Harbinger would never have left the beam.  And since he's still there, a well placed attack could theoretically break his concentration, causing him to release control of Shepard.

[Xilizhra]

Whooosh. Right over your head.

So are you going to explain or just going to complain that I didn't instantly leap to your interpretation?

[Hrothdane]

Xilizhra wrote...
Clumsy foreshadowing, clumsy hinting, and I seriously detest the idea of entire enemy species that are wholly evil. Even the Reapers. Exceptions are always good things, as is the possibility of redemption. And a story talking about the impossibilities of redemption? Well, that sounds remarkably like what a bunch of the other anti-ending people have been complaining about in making the previous themes of the game invalid.

Shepard can save people and give them second chances, and they will usually turn out okay. However, just like in real life, he/she can't redeem everyone. Ed Gein, John Wayne Gacy, and Charles Manson will never change. If the Reapers do have free will, they are even worse than all of the serial killers in our history combined and completely unrepentant. If they do not have free will, they are little different from a galactic computer virus, and the proper response to a virus is to delete it.

[Xilizhra]

SwobyJ wrote...

Xil should watch this too! It's awesome! 

www.youtube.com/watch

Way too much Maleshep. I honestly kind of hate him.

Shepard can save people and give them second chances, and they will
usually turn out okay. However, just like in real life, he/she can't
redeem everyone. Ed Gein, John Wayne Gacy, and Charles Manson will never
change. If the Reapers do have free will, they are even worse than all
of the serial killers in our history combined and completely
unrepentant. If they do not have free will, they are little different
from a galactic computer virus, and the proper response to a virus is to
delete it.

Or it can be reprogrammed.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 16 octobre 2012 - 04:43 .

[Davik Kang]

Dwailing wrote...
Does this make sense?

It does.

[Xilizhra]

Jesus, what don't you hate in Mass Effect? It's like 90% of it doesn't fit with you.

I don't know. I like bringing the galaxy together. I like seeing different perspectives. I like being a factor of change. I like the characters. I like the general atmosphere. I like many of the races. Etc.

[BatmanTurian]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Shepard only chooses to kill EDI & Geth if you choose to believe what your enemy tells you.

Why would you believe him? He's only trying to sway you from making the choice that will make you break free from indoctrination.

If you believe him (that you would kill EDI & the Geth), and thus refuse, the Reaper overlord has succesfully changed your mind and stopped you from doing what you came there to do.

(Yes, EDI & Geth are prepared to die to defeat the Reapers, I know, just giving another argument.)

Restrider wrote...

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I proudly present the results of the fifth poll and would also like to remind you that the sixth poll and my long-time survey regarding the first-playthrough chioces are opened for votes.

RR, for the 'decision chamber resembling the London beam' bit, this picture is good:



Lots of cool IT reference material can be found here. (Parabolee's blog)

Also, what we -really- need in addition to the IT backbone (as some kind of addendum), is a complete list of quotes (and there are a ton of them) that support destroy, or go against control/synthesis like scenarios, or mention dreams, nightmares or waking up. There's a LOT.

I am going to compile this list. I will make a topic in the IT group for that purpose.

I am hereby asking each and every one of you to submit dialogue that falls under these categories in the appropriate thread in the IT group, so I don't have to dig through pages and pages of this thread trying to find the relevant posts.

What we need is a Wiki

[Davik Kang]

Xilizhra wrote...
Do you know what I find really annoying about this post? It wouldn't matter a damn where Harbinger was. If Harbinger's near Destroy, it's because Destroy attacks it; if Harbinger is near Control or Synthesis, it's because Shepard is going to Harbinger and succumbing. You'd assume a meaning for IT regardless, and this is the case for a lot of other pieces of evidence.

To be fair that is a very good point.  No need for capitals in reply to this.  It's nothing like a troll post.  People may not like it but it is still a valid point.

[Raistlin Majare 1992]

Xilizhra wrote...

ALWAYS offer a choice. It's how humans operate.

But why does any choice have to be genuine?

Who says any of the choices do what the Catalyst tells you. IT certainly for most interpretations operate on the idea that the choices never take place in the shape the Catalyst tells you. Destroy dosent destroy the Reapers, at most it i Shepard destroying the influence the Reapers hold on him.

And why should the Reapers fear that? Harbinger is ( according to most interpretations) looming just over Shepard and can kill him if Shepard breaks free. Or they simply laugh, taunt Shepard and try again later when the Indoctrination has sunk deeper into Shepard.

The choice is the turning point, but just because Shepard breaks free it dosent mean he is free of all influence of Indoctrination. He just needs a little more time before breaking.

[Davik Kang]

SwobyJ wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Do you know what I find really annoying about this post? It wouldn't matter a damn where Harbinger was. If Harbinger's near Destroy, it's because Destroy attacks it; if Harbinger is near Control or Synthesis, it's because Shepard is going to Harbinger and succumbing. You'd assume a meaning for IT regardless, and this is the case for a lot of other pieces of evidence.

To be fair that is a very good point.  No need for capitals in reply to this.  It's nothing like a troll post.  People may not like it but it is still a valid point.

It's actually stating the obvious - that IT is a theory and isn't proven. People are taking symbolism and narrative and interpreting it. Duh.

Valid point.... but barely a point at all.

I really disagree with this.  At times IT thread has a gang mentality which keeps people out, even IT supporters.  You can't just decry every single ITer point as valid and every counter-argument as weak without looking at the merits of the argument.  Or, you can, but then you're doing no more than preaching.

Ah, whatever, I'm gone for today, can't be bothered any more.

[smokingotter1]

ajk_Jack wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

This got me thinking too. Imagine if you like that the ending is like zooming into Shepard's mind.  First we escape Earth (reality).  Then we are in Shepard's mind (the Citadel scene resembles a brain).  Then we come so close to Shepard's consciousness that we are like a pinpoint, like the little arrow at the centre of the decision wheel.  This would make sense as to why the Chamber resembles a giant decision wheel.

Note also that Synthesis is beyond the back of, and lower down than, the other choices... it is beyond the normal decision wheel if you like.  It is a choice we normally cannot make... it is the choice of a god... or of insanity.

I like this. However, I see the Synthesis as either the 'last resort' choice (which would fit in with what you said) or as the most prominant choice in Shepard's head, because the path to Synthesis is the most obvious, clear and simple.

I wrote about this before but synthesis does two things story/plot wise.

A. It's a nod to veteran players of Mass Effect. It's a warning to players who have gone through the entire trilogy. Players who are hardcore fans and have been with Shepard since the very beginning are more likely to max out their EMS and will unlock synthesis. It's a nod to you ME1 players (Bioware: remember Saren?) and to ME2 players, especially you folks who got the dlc (Bioware: hey, remember Overlord?) Players who just bought ME3 for a quick no story play through will probably not max out their EMS so synthesis is an unfair choice for them.

B. Synthesis is a reflection of the choices you the player have made. To unlock synthesis you the player through Shepard must have a high EMS, in order to do that you spend a lot of time worrying about the decisions you make and doing fetch quests. You and Shepard are invested in this galaxy, and both you and Shepard are more desperate for a happy choice that saves everyone.

All you need is a catalyst to open your mind to new possibilies. Trust in the reapers and a brave new world awaits you full of wonders!

[Dwailing]

Davik Kang wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
Do you know what I find really annoying about this post? It wouldn't matter a damn where Harbinger was. If Harbinger's near Destroy, it's because Destroy attacks it; if Harbinger is near Control or Synthesis, it's because Shepard is going to Harbinger and succumbing. You'd assume a meaning for IT regardless, and this is the case for a lot of other pieces of evidence.

To be fair that is a very good point.  No need for capitals in reply to this.  It's nothing like a troll post.  People may not like it but it is still a valid point.

It would be a valid point if I was making it up that Harbinger was on the same side as Destroy.  I'm not making it up.  Look at the Conduit run.  Then look at the end chamber.  Harbinger was shooting from a position very close to where the Destroy choice is if you assume that the end chamber is a true hallucination.  That's fact.

Edit: OK, I think I understand what Xil meant.  And I'll admit, he does have a point.  However, for us to NOT assume a possible meaning for something from an IT perspective, on the IT thread, would just be... stupid.

Modifié par Dwailing, 16 octobre 2012 - 04:59 .

[BatmanTurian]

Humakt83 wrote...

Some quotes and their explanations:

---------------------------------------
"This nightmare never ends." - Liara T'Soni

"Hell it won't. We get to this artifact and we can all wake up" - Commander Shepard
---------------------------------------

"Organics will be perfected by integrating fully with synthetic technology. Synthetics in turn, will finally have full understanding of organics." - Child

Replace words synthetic with Reaper if you want to understand the clause fully.

-----------------------------------------

"But there will be peace?" - Commander Shepard

"The cycle will end, the Reapers will cease their harvest, and civilizations preserved in their form will be connected to all of us." - Child

This is very clever wordplay. It sounds like a good thing initially but when you dissect it:

"The cycle will end, the Reapers will cease their harvest", refers to this particular cycle not the cycles themselves. The Reapers will cease their harvest until next cycle. Cycles will continue.

"and civilizations preserved in their form"

This actually refers that civilizations will be preserved in Reaper form, not in their original forms.

"will be connected to all of us"

The reapers are connected to each other so the civilization which becomes a Reaper will be connected to the rest. "We are each a nation - independent, free of all weakness." - Sovereign.

Notice that the Child does not answer Shepard's question.

Like I said, the kid is Justin Beiber's Ghost as a Used Car Salesman.

[smokingotter1]

BatmanTurian wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Shepard only chooses to kill EDI & Geth if you choose to believe what your enemy tells you.

Why would you believe him? He's only trying to sway you from making the choice that will make you break free from indoctrination.

If you believe him (that you would kill EDI & the Geth), and thus refuse, the Reaper overlord has succesfully changed your mind and stopped you from doing what you came there to do.

(Yes, EDI & Geth are prepared to die to defeat the Reapers, I know, just giving another argument.)

Restrider wrote...

Ladies and Gentlemen,
I proudly present the results of the fifth poll and would also like to remind you that the sixth poll and my long-time survey regarding the first-playthrough chioces are opened for votes.

RR, for the 'decision chamber resembling the London beam' bit, this picture is good:



Lots of cool IT reference material can be found here. (Parabolee's blog)

Also, what we -really- need in addition to the IT backbone (as some kind of addendum), is a complete list of quotes (and there are a ton of them) that support destroy, or go against control/synthesis like scenarios, or mention dreams, nightmares or waking up. There's a LOT.

I am going to compile this list. I will make a topic in the IT group for that purpose.

I am hereby asking each and every one of you to submit dialogue that falls under these categories in the appropriate thread in the IT group, so I don't have to dig through pages and pages of this thread trying to find the relevant posts.

What we need is a Wiki

Another thing, look at the picture. We talked about paragon/regade choices being "flipped" with control being paragon, renegade being destroy.


But have you also noticed the sky, I can't believe I never noticed it. On the conduit run the sky is up and the earth is down. In the decision chamber you're literally upside down reverse. The earth is up now the sky is down. Everything is flipped.

Modifié par smokingotter1, 16 octobre 2012 - 05:02 .

[Davik Kang]

Dwailing wrote...
It would be a valid point if I was making it up that Harbinger was on the same side as Destroy.  I'm not making it up.  Look at the Conduit run.  Then look at the end chamber.  Harbinger was shooting from a position very close to where the Destroy choice is if you assume that the end chamber is a true hallucination.  That's fact.

Seriously.  Did you already forget that I was the one that pointed this out to you about 10 minutes ago.

It's like you aren't even reading Xil's point.  Or mine.  Or anyone's.  Just what you want to read.

smokingotter1 wrote...
B. Synthesis is a reflection of the choices you the player have made. To unlock synthesis you the player through Shepard must have a high EMS, in order to do that you spend a lot of time worrying about the decisions you make and doing fetch quests. You and Shepard are invested in this galaxy, and both you and Shepard are more desperate for a happy choice that saves everyone.

I used to think that, though I now think that there are stonger reasons for Synth in high EMS.  But I'm too bummed out with this place to explain.  IT is king.  Everyone else is wrong by decree.  Dismissing others will make us stronger.  Etc.

Modifié par Davik Kang, 16 octobre 2012 - 05:01 .

[ajk_Jack]

SwobyJ wrote...


Here you go then, but you probably hate another part of it too: www.youtube.com/watch

Jesus, what don't you hate in Mass Effect? It's like 90% of it doesn't fit with you.

Well, I liked it anyway. Anything played to any of Thomas Bergersen's pieces is amazing.

[ajk_Jack]

SwobyJ wrote...


Here you go then, but you probably hate another part of it too: www.youtube.com/watch

Jesus, what don't you hate in Mass Effect? It's like 90% of it doesn't fit with you.

Well, I liked it anyway. Anything played to any of Thomas Bergersen's pieces is amazing.


Edit: Sorry for the double post.

Modifié par ajk_Jack, 16 octobre 2012 - 05:03 .

[masster blaster]

Otter my friend good to see you. And Think about this. If you unlock endings due to your ems, which is the best one.

Destroy because of the breath scene. It's a nod to the players, that your Shepard past the test.

Synthesis is the Reapers ultimate Control over Shepard, while Destroy breath scene is Shepard's trojin horse.

[Dwailing]

Davik Kang wrote...

Dwailing wrote...
It would be a valid point if I was making it up that Harbinger was on the same side as Destroy.  I'm not making it up.  Look at the Conduit run.  Then look at the end chamber.  Harbinger was shooting from a position very close to where the Destroy choice is if you assume that the end chamber is a true hallucination.  That's fact.

Seriously.  Did you already forget that I was the one that pointed this out to you about 10 minutes ago.

It's like you aren't even reading Xil's point.  Or mine.  Or anyone's.  Just what you want to read.

Look, I'm sorry.  I didn't properly read Xil's post.  When I read it again, I got what he meant.  However, as I said in my edit, for us to NOT think of alternate meaning for things (I.E. Meanings for things other than the seemingly obvious literal meaning), from an IT perspective, on the IT thread, would be, put bluntly, stupid.

[Eryri]

magnetite wrote...

Eryri wrote...

Do you guys think that the Omega DLC might be so large because they have rolled the planned second and third dlc packs together, as TSA suggested the other night?

One thing I remembered them saying was they had to keep the EC under 2 GB because of some limit on the Xbox 360. With that being said, it'll probably be under 2 GB. 

Yes this confused me too. Mike Gamble's comment was that Omega was "twice the size of any DLC we've ever done". But the EC was already up against the Xbox's limits. Perhaps it refers to play time rather than the compressed file size? I hope so anyway, to justify its high price.