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[smokingotter1]

Ok apologise in advance for two long posts but I'll be busy this weekend entertaining guests so.... here goes. Beam Analysis.  My thought is that the conduit beam in the decision chamber is an analogy for the reapers direct connection to Shepard.

Shepard to Saren: "You could have resisted, you could have fought, instead you surrendered, you quit!"




Let's start with the default beam in all it's glory:



In refuse the beam dries up:

You quit.

In destroy the beam is severed:

You fought.

In control the beam maintains:

You resisted.

In synthesis the beam is massive! It is stronger:

You surrendered.

Modifié par smokingotter1, 19 octobre 2012 - 03:16 .

[Davik Kang]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

MegumiAzusa wrote...
btw still no thoughts from anyone to
http://www.youtube.c...FrDsKo#t=44m27s
http://www.youtube.c...pmHZ4#t=1h7m31s
?

The first one is about a Volus being nervous about his first session with the Consort and the second one about a human having the feeling of being called to it.
...could the Consort (including her assistents) be a tool of the Reapers, some sort of double agent, who accelerates the indoc. process that seems to be going on on the Citadel?

Ah finally someone gets it (after 3 tries of posting this in these threads)

Almost all of the consort chambers stuff is interesting in light of the idea that she's a source of indoctrination.  Influence without reason could be description of indoctrination right?  

For example, the receptionist.  She touches her head as it struggling for thought when trying to explain what the Consort is.  "Most of the time, our clients won't realise what they were seeking until after she has provided it for them".  In other words, they are a clean slate, drawn to her, and she tells them what to think, how to feel.

The thing about her being "just a woman" could imply that she is being influenced (quite speculative though).

About Septimus, she refuses to discuss any details.  Sha'ira does not appeal to any logic at all.  She says Oraka will agree with you simply because you;re both soldiers.  She asks you to "appeal to his sense of honour", and to his sense of duty as a general.  And she persuades Shepard by giving her an initmate hug.  There is no appeal to logic or rational explanation.  It is all about influence without reason.

When you return, two attendants arwe talking about coming back to the consort.  Asked why she returned to the consort, she says, "I don't know exactly.  It may sound strange, but I simply felt called."  The other when says that many of the others have felt the same calling.  And these are her attendants.  Not even clients.

The last thing she says is an affirmation of who you are and who you will become.  She then says this is who you are, but not who you will become.  She then says to remember these words in times of doubt.  Perhaps I am scraping the barrel, but are these words intentionally confusing?  Actually meant to instill doubt, rather than help cast doubt aside?

Thanks for the posts anyway.  I always felt like there was something creepy about those chambers.  About mind control.  I guess the basic implication was the use of sex for mind control.  But with what purpose?  Your posts have provided a really interesting interpretation of that purpose.

[Xilizhra]

So are we now a source of anti-asari bigotry?

[Eryri]

Davik Kang wrote...

Almost all of the consort chambers stuff is interesting in light of the idea that she's a source of indoctrination.  Influence without reason could be description of indoctrination right?  

For example, the receptionist.  She touches her head as it struggling for thought when trying to explain what the Consort is.  "Most of the time, our clients won't realise what they were seeking until after she has provided it for them".  In other words, they are a clean slate, drawn to her, and she tells them what to think, how to feel.

The thing about her being "just a woman" could imply that she is being influenced (quite speculative though).

About Septimus, she refuses to discuss any details.  Sha'ira does not appeal to any logic at all.  She says Oraka will agree with you simply because you;re both soldiers.  She asks you to "appeal to his sense of honour", and to his sense of duty as a general.  And she persuades Shepard by giving her an initmate hug.  There is no appeal to logic or rational explanation.  It is all about influence without reason.

When you return, two attendants arwe talking about coming back to the consort.  Asked why she returned to the consort, she says, "I don't know exactly.  It may sound strange, but I simply felt called."  The other when says that many of the others have felt the same calling.  And these are her attendants.  Not even clients.

The last thing she says is an affirmation of who you are and who you will become.  She then says this is who you are, but not who you will become.  She then says to remember these words in times of doubt.  Perhaps I am scraping the barrel, but are these words intentionally confusing?  Actually meant to instill doubt, rather than help cast doubt aside?

Thanks for the posts anyway.  I always felt like there was something creepy about those chambers.  About mind control.  I guess the basic implication was the use of sex for mind control.  But with what purpose?  Your posts have provided a really interesting interpretation of that purpose.

I always felt the consort was an unresolved plot thread, but I didn't really think of her as being sinister until you guys pointed it out. You all make some very interesting points.

I dimly remember something similar in the later Dune novels about an order of telepaths who controlled others through sex. Yet another "homage" that ME pays to other franchises. 

Modifié par Eryri, 19 octobre 2012 - 03:34 .

[Falaxe]

Xilizhra wrote...

So are we now a source of anti-asari bigotry?

Are you suggesting that we can blaim asari for the ending?

[Davik Kang]

smokingotter1 wrote...
Ok apologise in advance for two long posts but I'll be busy this weekend entertaining guests so.... here goes. Beam Analysis.  My thought is that the conduit beam in the decision chamber is an analogy for the reapers direct connection to Shepard. 

Shepard to Saren: "You could have resisted, you could have fought, instead you surrendered, you quit!"
Let's start with the default beam in all it's glory:
In refuse the beam dries up:
You quit.
In destroy the beam is severed:
You fought.
In control the beam maintains:
You resisted.
In synthesis the beam is massive! It is stronger:
You surrendered.

Hey!  I've been thinking about exactly this too.  The symblism of the ending.  If the Chamber is Shepard's mind, then the beam is her consciousness.  Note how the tubes look like those tubes feeding the ME2 human Reaper.  Here, the tube is feeding Reaper thoughts to the mind.  So shooting (Destroy) it is severing the connection, breaking free of the Reaper influence.  In Refuse, the beam just stops - in other words, Shepard gives up and dies.  

In Synthesis, he walks into the beam.  Now I have a very specific interpretation of Synthesis which would take too long to go into here.  But it fits perfectly with the idea of Shepard closing himself within his own mind.  And in IT, it relates to accepting the (flawed, Reaper-fed) logic of his current mental state.

The Control one I hadn't decided on.  But resistance makes a lot of snese.  While Saren accepts he's aligned with the Reapers, TIM always maintains right to the end that he is against the Reapers and protecting humanity.  How the blue Reaper-like contraption symbolises that, though, I'm not sure.

The Control contraption has four levers.  Is this significant?  The only race I can think of with four arms is the Keeprs.  Does this imply Shepard becomes a slave, trying to manipulate the Citadel/Reapers but is ultimately just controlled by them?

Modifié par Davik Kang, 19 octobre 2012 - 03:45 .

[Davik Kang]

Eryri wrote...
I dimly remember something similar in the later Dune novels about an order of telepaths who controlled others through sex. Yet another "homage" that ME pays to other franchises. 

The Dune novels definitely have a lot of inlfuence in these stories as well as other sci-fi.  Remember the Butlerian Jihad?  And the gradual blue coloration of eyes?  I have a theory I've been discussing with Spotless about how the ME trilogy could be seen as a prequel for many things, depending on which ending you pick.

[estebanus]

Falaxe wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

So are we now a source of anti-asari bigotry?

Are you suggesting that we can blaim asari for the ending?

Wait... I thought that was pretty clear by now. Clearly, it was Morinth's spirit that possessed you after getting hit by Harby, and made you experience how you feel after getting f*cked by an Ardat Yakshi.

[smokingotter1]

Davik Kang wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...
Ok apologise in advance for two long posts but I'll be busy this weekend entertaining guests so.... here goes. Beam Analysis.  My thought is that the conduit beam in the decision chamber is an analogy for the reapers direct connection to Shepard. 

Shepard to Saren: "You could have resisted, you could have fought, instead you surrendered, you quit!"
Let's start with the default beam in all it's glory:
In refuse the beam dries up:
You quit.
In destroy the beam is severed:
You fought.
In control the beam maintains:
You resisted.
In synthesis the beam is massive! It is stronger:
You surrendered.

Hey!  I've been thinking about exactly this too.  The symblism of the ending.  If the Chamber is Shepard's mind, then the beam is her consciousness.  Note how the tubes look like those tubes feeding the ME2 human Reaper.  Here, the tube is feeding Reaper thoughts to the mind.  So shooting (Destroy) it is severing the connection, breaking free of the Reaper influence.  In Refuse, the beam just stops - in other words, Shepard gives up and dies.  

In Synthesis, he walks into the beam.  Now I have a very specific interpretation of Synthesis which would take too long to go into here.  But it fits perfectly with the idea of Shepard closing himself within his own mind.  And in IT, it relates to accepting the (flawed, Reaper-fed) logic of his current mental state.

The Control one I hadn't decided on.  But resistance makes a lot of snese.  While Saren accepts he's aligned with the Reapers, TIM alwasy maintains right to the end that he is against the Reapers and protecting humanity.  ow the blue Reaper-like contraption symbolises that, though, I'm not sure.

The Control contraption has four levers.  Is this significant?  The only race I can think of with four arms is the Keeprs.  Does this imply Shepard becomes a husk, trying to manipulate the Citadel/Reapers but is ultimately just controlled by them?

I would say the four levers have multiple meanings:

• it highlights the impossibility of Shepard controlling the reapers, four levers, two hands, Shepard can never take full control.
• Shepard doesn't grab the top levers only the bottom, who is controlling the top?
• Doubling of the levers, mirroring each other implies an illusion, control is an illusion

What happens with each choice?
Refuse: Shepard knows he's under the influence of the reapers, he refuses to take any action for fear of furthering the reaper cause. Indoctrination can make you believe something but it can't make you act on it. The reapers release their hold on Shepard knowing that he will not do anything anymore.

Destroy: Shepard severs his connection to the reapers causing damage to himself in the process

Control: Reapers gain control of Shepard partially through indoctrination. Shepard closes the citadel doors. The crucible is still intact but cannot fire.


From the control ending video.
[*]
[*]Synthesis, Shepard allows himself to be directly controlled by the reapers, not only does Shepard help the reapers but probably helps them use the crucible for their own ends.

[Xilizhra]

I would say the four levers have multiple meanings:

it highlights the impossibility of Shepard controlling the reapers, four levers, two hands, Shepard can never take full control.

Shepard doesn't grab the top levers only the bottom, who is controlling the top?

Doubling of the levers, mirroring each other implies an illusion, control is an illusion

This whole exchange reminds me of nothing so much as the 60's Batman show, with the Riddler.

[Davik Kang]

smokingotter1 wrote...
Synthesis, Shepard allows himself to be directly controlled by the reapers, not only does Shepard help the reapers but probably helps them use the crucible for their own ends.

Imo, not probably, definitely.  It depends on a more literal interpretation, but imo, the Synthesis ending shows us what happens.  And it's not good.

[Davik Kang]

Xilizhra wrote...

I would say the four levers have multiple meanings:
it highlights the impossibility of Shepard controlling the reapers, four levers, two hands, Shepard can never take full control.

Shepard doesn't grab the top levers only the bottom, who is controlling the top?

Doubling of the levers, mirroring each other implies an illusion, control is an illusion

This whole exchange reminds me of nothing so much as the 60's Batman show, with the Riddler.

Yeah I gotta say I wasn't 100% convinced by this bit.

[Restrider]

Xilizhra wrote...

So are we now a source of anti-asari bigotry?

I actually like the Asari, but what I've mentioned remains true though.
Maybe BW just wants to throw the players off.
Here you have a race of beautiful women-like entities known for their empathy, wisdom, peaceableness, understanding and compassion and then they show you how these - positive prejudices - cannot be applied to all of them by showing you a lot of individual Asari with said sociopathic/psychopathic traits. 

Modifié par Restrider, 19 octobre 2012 - 03:57 .

[Eryri]

Davik Kang wrote...

Eryri wrote...
I dimly remember something similar in the later Dune novels about an order of telepaths who controlled others through sex. Yet another "homage" that ME pays to other franchises. 

The Dune novels definitely have a lot of inlfuence in these stories as well as other sci-fi.  Remember the Butlerian Jihad?  And the gradual blue coloration of eyes?  

Not to mention giant worms.

Modifié par Eryri, 19 octobre 2012 - 04:02 .

[Xilizhra]

Davik Kang wrote...

smokingotter1 wrote...
Synthesis, Shepard allows himself to be directly controlled by the reapers, not only does Shepard help the reapers but probably helps them use the crucible for their own ends.

Imo, not probably, definitely.  It depends on a more literal interpretation, but imo, the Synthesis ending shows us what happens.  And it's not good.

The Synthesis ending is good, at least for the galaxy as a whole. You may not agree, but things do work out well.

And again, I swear that this is what you sound like:

[Restrider]

?

[Restrider]

As I already mentioned earlier, I wanted to create some kind of IT FAQ.
Since I do not really know what the frequently asked questions might
be,I skipped that idea and tried to make a list of the ten most
important concepts of IT. As you can see I highlighted the general
concept and backed it up with additional information. I will try to
include links toimportant posts further backing up the concepts (please
post it/pm me if you have links to share). I am still not sure what the
last two concepts could be to add to the in-game list. Please post your
opinions.
Here is the post with all the polls!



----------The Ten Most Important Concepts Supporting The Indoctrination Theory----------


     
        I) Indoctrination in general :

          1.   Regarding IT, Shepard is in the process of indoctrination and the outcome is decided by the final decision taken.
          2.   The concept of indoctrination is a crucial part throughout the trilogy and nothing new to the player (link 1and 2).
          3.   Rana Thanoptis is an example of how subtle and slow indoctrination can be.
          4.   Shepard knocked out for two days by a Reaper artifact that indoctrinated an entire facility.
          5.   Logs on the derelict Reaper illustrate the reactions of victims of indoctrination.
          6.   Paul Grayson's indoctrination show its effects on someone's mind.
          7.   Harbinger's smacktalk (link 1 and 2).

 
       II) The Breath Scene :

          1.   London rubble.
          2.   Mako in the background.
          3.   Citadel explosion (link 1 and 2).


      III) The Dreams :
         
          1.   Dream sequences and post-beam sequence share the same game mechanics.
          2.   Reality-nonreality transition after beam shot (post-beam, dreams, Geth Consensus).
          3.   Oily shadows and whispering.
          4.   Nightmares are mentioned in the Arrival by subjects being indoctrinated.
          5.   Chambers and Asari having PTSD as comparison between PTSD & Shepard's dreams.


     IV) Leviathan :

          1.   Harbinger/the Reapers perfected enthrallment to indoctrination.
          2.   Enthrallment uses memories of its victim.
          3.   Similarities between Leviathan end and decision chamber.
          4.   Zap sound as a sign to enter/leave virtual reality (link 1 and 2).
          5.   Note the file name of the sixth murder that can be found in Bryson's lab.


     V) The Choices :

          1.   Shepard on his knees happened only during/after some mind control.
          2.   The Guardian is aligned to the Reapers.
          3.   Control and Synthesis being supported by indoctrinated characters.
          4.   A swap in the colours (TIM = Paragon; Anderson = Renegade).
          5.   Huskification during Control/Synthesis vs. Shepard gaining strength while shooting the tubes.
          6.   Guardian losing it when you refuse ("SO BE IT!").
          7.   Decision chamber looks like a dialogue wheel from an aerial view.
          8.   Decision chamber resembling beam scenery (link 1 and 2).
          9.   Ambiguous end dialogue (Control/Synthesis).
        10.   Slide shows in Control/Synthesis/Destroy illustrate future possibilities, not facts that already happened.
        11.   Soldiers in Destroy fighting fiercely while in Control/Synthesis they are losing (note: no cheering in Synthesis).


    VI) The Kid :

         1.   Moves from one roof to another during an invasion.
         2.   It can open a door that is marked as locked.
         3.   It survives a blast from a Reaper laser.
         4.   It is not seen by anyone else.
         5.   There always are warning symbols around it.
         6.   It disappears without making any noise.
         7.   It does not behave like a normal kid ("You cannot save me!").
         8.   The Guardian has the same form as the kid.


   VII) Anderson & TIM :

         1.   How did Anderson follow Shepard?
         2.   How can Anderson reach the control first?
         3.   Why did no one else follow Anderson?
         4.   From where did TIM shows up?
         5.   TIM's scars are only present at the end of the game.
         6.   Anderson may be addressing Shepard ("They are controlling you!").
         7.   Shepard is dominated by TIM and thus through him by the Reapers.
         8.   Anderson and Shepard have wounds at the same place (link 1 and 2).
         9.   Reaper horn played in the background (at 1/2 speed).



List of in-game reasons:



 1) The Citadel :
   - resembling events of the past
   - Coats dead on the Citadel

 2) The Beam Run :
   - Harbinger pin-pointing everyone and everything but Shepard
   - Harbinger not destroying the Normandy
   - Shepard surviving the blast that one-shots Makos and Gunships
   - Harbinger leaving

 3) The Guardian :
   - has the same shape as the kid (extraction of Shepard's memories)
   - speaks with femshep's and broshep's voice
   - Harbinger's line in the MP trailer (link 1 and 2)

I just want to express my hatred for BSN formatting.

Modifié par Restrider, 19 octobre 2012 - 04:35 .

[TSA_383]

smokingotter1 wrote...
Control: Reapers gain control of Shepard partially through indoctrination. Shepard closes the citadel doors. The crucible is still intact but cannot fire. 
[*]

[*]Control's something I don't think we've really discussed properly in this - why would control cause the citadel to close? What does that scene mean?

Also one big thing is the cheering soldiers - the soldiers in the original version cheer in high EMS destroy and high EMS control. In the EC there's the shot of the soldiers being more victorious which only appears in high EMS destroy. Interesting...

[Davik Kang]

Xilizhra wrote...
And again, I swear that this is what you sound like:

Why is that in response to me?  I agreed with what you said about the handles.  Do you regularly randomly insult people who are on your side?  Or do you just have something personal against me?

[Xilizhra]

Davik Kang wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
And again, I swear that this is what you sound like:

Why is that in response to me?  I agreed with what you said about the handles.  Do you regularly randomly insult people who are on your side?  Or do you just have something personal against me?

Sorry, I meant it in collective terms, and the IT group as a whole. I'm not intending to attack it as such, but I admit to a certain amount of bitterness over the group's excoriations of anyone who chose an ending that wasn't their One True Path to God.

[Davik Kang]

TSA_383 wrote...
Also one big thing is the cheering soldiers - the soldiers in the original version cheer in high EMS destroy and high EMS control. In the EC there's the shot of the soldiers being more victorious which only appears in high EMS destroy. Interesting...

They still cheer in high EMS control.  But in synthesis they just stand, emotionless, calm...

[masster blaster]

TSA because we kicked their a**** out of Shepard's head. Also for Control I still won't pick it because of the close up on the brats face. Why would Bioware have a close up on the brats face, in the Control ending. He is up to something.

[Xilizhra]

Davik Kang wrote...

TSA_383 wrote...
Also one big thing is the cheering soldiers - the soldiers in the original version cheer in high EMS destroy and high EMS control. In the EC there's the shot of the soldiers being more victorious which only appears in high EMS destroy. Interesting...

They still cheer in high EMS control.  But in synthesis they just stand, emotionless, calm...

Well, I imagine it'd be a powerful feeling. And if you don't believe that the epilogues exist anyway, why are you bringing them up?

[masster blaster]

Also um In Control, and Synthesis the two soldiers are loosing, while Destroy they stand their ground.

[Hrothdane]

Xilizhra wrote...

Davik Kang wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...
And again, I swear that this is what you sound like:

Why is that in response to me?  I agreed with what you said about the handles.  Do you regularly randomly insult people who are on your side?  Or do you just have something personal against me?

Sorry, I meant it in collective terms, and the IT group as a whole. I'm not intending to attack it as such, but I admit to a certain amount of bitterness over the group's excoriations of anyone who chose an ending that wasn't their One True Path to God.

You see a duck. We see a rabbit.

Modifié par Hrothdane, 19 octobre 2012 - 04:18 .