80611 réponses à ce sujet

[Xilizhra]

byne wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This is a silly argument. One does not have to be explosed to indoctrination constantly. It still works on in your brain even after the deactivation of the tech used to indoctrinate. Being exposed to more and more after that just fills the gas tank, so-to-speak, until it hits critical mass. You really don't understand indoctrination as much as you think you do.

As I said, we know that Shepard is either under no significant indoctrination on Thessia and Cronos Station, or is so badly indoctrinated that the hallucinations would be significantly hindering her ability to fight and lead.

We know no such thing about Cronos Station. Vendetta was ready to cooperate on Thessia, but on Cronos Station it only cooperates after mentioning that its security protocols have been overwritten.

No need to mention that unless said protocols were now advising it not to cooperate with Shepard.

Misinterpreted. Vendetta's line on Cronos Station is "You are attempting to rescue me from indoctrinated forces?" This would meaningless if Shepard was indoctrinated. And Prothean VIs, like Vigil, can always sense indoctrination.
I have the strong feeling that master aura-reader Javik would have been able to tell that something was wrong earlier too.

[demersel]

BleedingUranium wrote...

demersel wrote...

Guys! London lacks music! You know what else lacks music? the end of leviathan.

And I fixed that

But don't you get it? THe end of leviathan is an illusion - and thus no music...

[BleedingUranium]

Xilizhra wrote...

byne wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

This is a silly argument. One does not have to be explosed to indoctrination constantly. It still works on in your brain even after the deactivation of the tech used to indoctrinate. Being exposed to more and more after that just fills the gas tank, so-to-speak, until it hits critical mass. You really don't understand indoctrination as much as you think you do.

As I said, we know that Shepard is either under no significant indoctrination on Thessia and Cronos Station, or is so badly indoctrinated that the hallucinations would be significantly hindering her ability to fight and lead.

We know no such thing about Cronos Station. Vendetta was ready to cooperate on Thessia, but on Cronos Station it only cooperates after mentioning that its security protocols have been overwritten.

No need to mention that unless said protocols were now advising it not to cooperate with Shepard.

Misinterpreted. Vendetta's line on Cronos Station is "You are attempting to rescue me from indoctrinated forces?" This would meaningless if Shepard was indoctrinated. And Prothean VIs, like Vigil, can always sense indoctrination.
I have the strong feeling that master aura-reader Javik would have been able to tell that something was wrong earlier too.

It's irrelevant anyway, because in IT Shepard isn't indoctrinated until they make the choice to support the Reapers' views and methods.

[TSA_383]

byne wrote...

demersel wrote...

The whole FOB comm station seem unreal to me - I really don't by all of those conversations.

"Who do you wish to contact?"
"Jack."
"Well theres clearly only one Jack in the universe. I know exactly who you mean."

Maybe Jack's a really really rare name in the future...
(although her real name is Jennifer...)

Modifié par TSA_383, 20 octobre 2012 - 03:13 .

[BleedingUranium]

demersel wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...

demersel wrote...

Guys! London lacks music! You know what else lacks music? the end of leviathan.

And I fixed that

But don't you get it? THe end of leviathan is an illusion - and thus no music...

Right, good point. Actually, that's the only explanation I can think of for cutting the music. They had that track already why else wouldn't they put it in? Also, that's the only track from Leviathan that's been officially released

[Xilizhra]

It's irrelevant anyway, because in IT Shepard isn't indoctrinated until they make the choice to support the Reapers' views and methods.

So how are you explaining all of the supposed hallucinations earlier, if Shepard isn't indoctrinated until the very end? And if Shepard is indoctrinated at the very end, how the hell does she resist a blast that powerful?

[plfranke]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's irrelevant anyway, because in IT Shepard isn't indoctrinated until they make the choice to support the Reapers' views and methods.

So how are you explaining all of the supposed hallucinations earlier, if Shepard isn't indoctrinated until the very end? And if Shepard is indoctrinated at the very end, how the hell does she resist a blast that powerful?

Some believe the indoctrination attempt happens during the mako crash which explains the terrible evac scene, which is not only not believable but is completely contradictory to a character like Javik.

[Xilizhra]

plfranke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's irrelevant anyway, because in IT Shepard isn't indoctrinated until they make the choice to support the Reapers' views and methods.

So how are you explaining all of the supposed hallucinations earlier, if Shepard isn't indoctrinated until the very end? And if Shepard is indoctrinated at the very end, how the hell does she resist a blast that powerful?

Some believe the indoctrination attempt happens during the mako crash which explains the terrible evac scene, which is not only not believable but is completely contradictory to a character like Javik.

Okay, great. Now, how is Shepard even functional right now? Being both indoctrinated and dying in a field of rubble? And why the hell would Harbinger bother to use an indoctrination burst when it has a freakin' huge molten metal beam?

[BleedingUranium]

Xilizhra wrote...

It's irrelevant anyway, because in IT Shepard isn't indoctrinated until they make the choice to support the Reapers' views and methods.

So how are you explaining all of the supposed hallucinations earlier, if Shepard isn't indoctrinated until the very end? And if Shepard is indoctrinated at the very end, how the hell does she resist a blast that powerful?

That happens when you're undergoing the effects of indoctrination. It's just like any other form of brainwashing, it takes time and effort, but there comes a point where they "break", that's the point they accept the Reapers' views and logic. This is that "slow, patient indoctrination" as mentioned in the codex.

[spotlessvoid]

The codex is clear: the harder the Reapers push indoctrination the more a subject degrades. They would try and take things a slowly as possible with Shepard.

additionally, Javik is a Prothean. Guess what happened to them? They were betrayed from within by indoctrinated Protheans (who were pro control - hahaha) so no Javik doesnt have a built in indoctrination alarm.

[plfranke]

Xilizhra wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's irrelevant anyway, because in IT Shepard isn't indoctrinated until they make the choice to support the Reapers' views and methods.

So how are you explaining all of the supposed hallucinations earlier, if Shepard isn't indoctrinated until the very end? And if Shepard is indoctrinated at the very end, how the hell does she resist a blast that powerful?

Some believe the indoctrination attempt happens during the mako crash which explains the terrible evac scene, which is not only not believable but is completely contradictory to a character like Javik.

Okay, great. Now, how is Shepard even functional right now? Being both indoctrinated and dying in a field of rubble? And why the hell would Harbinger bother to use an indoctrination burst when it has a freakin' huge molten metal beam?

The problem I've never seen addressed by ITers is one that you just posed, motive. The Reapers already have this battle won so it doesn't really matter whether they indoctrinate Shepard or not, (assuming it's not a full Reaper trap). Even if it was a Reaper trap though I don't see why it matters considering the Reapers just completely outgun everyone. However, for every problem there is with IT there are 2 for the literal interperetation.

For instance, I notice you seem to have a problem with Shepard being functional after he's taken a shot from Harbinger's beam, yet it doesn't bother you at all that he's able to survive in a literal interperetation which would make even less sense considering Harbinger would be shooting to kill.

Edit: When I say "it" in the places there is nothing specified of what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the Crucible.

Modifié par plfranke, 20 octobre 2012 - 03:26 .

[spotlessvoid]

I'm sure the Reapers can mess with your mind without fully indoctrinating someone. By Xils logic Shepard should already be indoctrinated by Leviathan.

[BleedingUranium]

Xilizhra wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's irrelevant anyway, because in IT Shepard isn't indoctrinated until they make the choice to support the Reapers' views and methods.

So how are you explaining all of the supposed hallucinations earlier, if Shepard isn't indoctrinated until the very end? And if Shepard is indoctrinated at the very end, how the hell does she resist a blast that powerful?

Some believe the indoctrination attempt happens during the mako crash which explains the terrible evac scene, which is not only not believable but is completely contradictory to a character like Javik.

Okay, great. Now, how is Shepard even functional right now? Being both indoctrinated and dying in a field of rubble? And why the hell would Harbinger bother to use an indoctrination burst when it has a freakin' huge molten metal beam?

1 - All we see in an injured Shepard waking up, no one's saying he's functional. Also, he's only indoctrinated in two of the endings.
2 - Why do you keep calling them "bursts"? It's not a kind of weapon or anything.
3-It's been well established since ME2 that Harbinger wants Shepard alive, and he wants Shepard's mind.

Think about it this way: he could either kill the leader and hero of the galaxy, making him a martyr and everyone fight even harder. Or he could turn Shepard to the Reapers' side, completely demoralizing and disorganizing the allied forces. Or, people might not know Shepard is indoctrinated, so he could lead everyone into a trap, or similar.

[Xilizhra]

That happens when you're undergoing the effects of indoctrination. It's just like any other form of brainwashing, it takes time and effort, but there comes a point where they "break", that's the point they accept the Reapers' views and logic. This is that "slow, patient indoctrination" as mentioned in the codex.

This simply doesn't work. Indoctrination leaves visible mental signs to Prothean VIs, and Vendetta never brings any up. Moreover, in ME3, Shepard is never exposed to Reapers or Reaper artifacts for any significant periods of time, and never in situations where the Reapers would be bothering to indoctrinate soldiers scurrying around under them. And then, there's the fact that Shepard is fine one moment and undergoing severe waking hallucinations the next; this isn't the sign of gradual indoctrination when the only previous ones before were a total of three bad dreams. No voices, no feeling of gradual nervousness, no weird bonding to the rest of the crew, nothing.

For instance, I notice you seem to have a problem with Shepard being functional after he's taken a shot from Harbinger's beam, yet it doesn't bother you at all that he's able to survive in a literal interperetation which would make even less sense considering Harbinger would be shooting to kill.

Actually, I don't have a problem with Shepard being functional after being shot, but after being shot and then indoctrinated. And I can explain easily enough why Shepard survived: Reaper capital ship guns aren't exactly precise, and the shot likely missed narrowly.

I'm sure the Reapers can mess with your mind without fully indoctrinating someone. By Xils logic Shepard should already be indoctrinated by Leviathan.

Enthrallment is a different animal: the Leviathans control it directly and can switch it on to full mind control mode without irreparably damaging the victim's brain.

[BleedingUranium]

plfranke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's irrelevant anyway, because in IT Shepard isn't indoctrinated until they make the choice to support the Reapers' views and methods.

So how are you explaining all of the supposed hallucinations earlier, if Shepard isn't indoctrinated until the very end? And if Shepard is indoctrinated at the very end, how the hell does she resist a blast that powerful?

Some believe the indoctrination attempt happens during the mako crash which explains the terrible evac scene, which is not only not believable but is completely contradictory to a character like Javik.

Okay, great. Now, how is Shepard even functional right now? Being both indoctrinated and dying in a field of rubble? And why the hell would Harbinger bother to use an indoctrination burst when it has a freakin' huge molten metal beam?

The problem I've never seen addressed by ITers is one that you just posed, motive. The Reapers already have this battle won so it doesn't really matter whether they indoctrinate Shepard or not, (assuming it's not a full Reaper trap). Even if it was a Reaper trap though I don't see why it matters considering the Reapers just completely outgun everyone. However, for every problem there is with IT there are 2 for the literal interperetation.

For instance, I notice you seem to have a problem with Shepard being functional after he's taken a shot from Harbinger's beam, yet it doesn't bother you at all that he's able to survive in a literal interperetation which would make even less sense considering Harbinger would be shooting to kill.

Edit: When I say "it" in the places there is nothing specified of what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the Crucible.

Except not everyone agrees that the Reapers do have this battle, or the war, won. I personally believe a non-Crucible victory against the Reapers could be completely possible.

[plfranke]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's irrelevant anyway, because in IT Shepard isn't indoctrinated until they make the choice to support the Reapers' views and methods.

So how are you explaining all of the supposed hallucinations earlier, if Shepard isn't indoctrinated until the very end? And if Shepard is indoctrinated at the very end, how the hell does she resist a blast that powerful?

Some believe the indoctrination attempt happens during the mako crash which explains the terrible evac scene, which is not only not believable but is completely contradictory to a character like Javik.

Okay, great. Now, how is Shepard even functional right now? Being both indoctrinated and dying in a field of rubble? And why the hell would Harbinger bother to use an indoctrination burst when it has a freakin' huge molten metal beam?

1 - All we see in an injured Shepard waking up, no one's saying he's functional. Also, he's only indoctrinated in two of the endings.
2 - Why do you keep calling them "bursts"? It's not a kind of weapon or anything.
3-It's been well established since ME2 that Harbinger wants Shepard alive, and he wants Shepard's mind.

Think about it this way: he could either kill the leader and hero of the galaxy, making him a martyr and everyone fight even harder. Or he could turn Shepard to the Reapers' side, completely demoralizing and disorganizing the allied forces. Or, people might not know Shepard is indoctrinated, so he could lead everyone into a trap, or similar.

Actually I don't think it would make the galaxy fight even harder. I think they would say "Damn now that Shepard is dead it's all over" considering that he carried them through the entire war.  He's like that one all star in the multiplayer matches who when he gets insta killed on wave 10 you know the match is over. You don't see the Banshee messing around trying to indoctrinate him she just takes him out of the game completely.

[plfranke]

@X
lol how exactly could he be fully functional, every other hit from Harbinger completely vaporized the other soldiers. He was as precise as you get.

@Bleeding
I don't know how you could come to that conclusion considering the game beats you over the head more times than I can count with some major character saying "We can't defeat the Reapers conventionally."

[Xilizhra]

1 - All we see in an injured Shepard waking up, no one's saying he's functional. Also, he's only indoctrinated in two of the endings.
2 - Why do you keep calling them "bursts"? It's not a kind of weapon or anything.
3-It's been well established since ME2 that Harbinger wants Shepard alive, and he wants Shepard's mind.

1. If on Earth, why didn't any Reaper troops grab her? The entire field was cleared and more Reapers could have easily walked in (which they did in literal, but in IT, there's no explanation as to why Shepard would just be lying there). And if she's not functional, she'd probably be squished immediately upon waking.
2. It'd have to be rapid indoctrination to induce such hallucinations so quickly.
3. Incorrect. Harbinger shot to kill Shepard at the beginning of ME2, and succeeded. And it didn't hold back through the rest of the game either; its order to the Collectors was "Preserve Shepard's body if possible," not "take Shepard alive." Harbinger is interested in Shepard's genetic information, probably looking for an inherent reason as to why she's so good at killing Reapers, but has no need for Shepard alive, and the logical thing to do would be to have a marauder break her neck and then bring her aboard Harbinger for dissection.

Think about it this way: he could either kill the leader and hero of the galaxy, making him a martyr and everyone fight even harder. Or he could turn Shepard to the Reapers' side, completely demoralizing and disorganizing the allied forces. Or, people might not know Shepard is indoctrinated, so he could lead everyone into a trap, or similar.

There is no trap necessary. The Reapers are stomping the allied forces right this minute. There's no need to be sneaky here.

[spotlessvoid]

starchild said the Leviathan became the first TRUE Reaper. If the Reapers are truly gestalt intelligences formed by the collective psyche of the harvested race, shouldn't all Reapers be true Reapers? Other than maybe transport ships. What does the "true" mean? I think it's possible that a "true" Reaper may require a willing organic to be uploaded as the mind of the Reaper. How does liquified organic paste retain cognitive function anyway? It's patently absurd. That could be one explanation.

Another more simple explanation is that the crucible is a legitimate threat and the Reapers feel an indoctrinated Shepard would be invaluable in neutralizing that threat

[spotlessvoid]

The same Prothean AIs that allowed the Protheans to get subverted from within by indoctrinated Protheans?

[Xilizhra]

starchild said the Leviathan became the first TRUE Reaper. If the Reapers are truly gestalt intelligences formed by the collective psyche of the harvested race, shouldn't all Reapers be true Reapers? Other than maybe transport ships. What does the "true" mean? I think it's possible that a "true" Reaper may require a willing organic to be uploaded as the mind of the Reaper. How does liquified organic paste retain cognitive function anyway? It's patently absurd. That could be one explanation.

All right, have the Reaper troops grab the stunned, living Shepard, and take her aboard Harbinger where indoctrination will be certain.

Another more simple explanation is that the crucible is a legitimate threat and the Reapers feel an indoctrinated Shepard would be invaluable in neutralizing that threat

Then they can just shoot the thing. Ignore Sword, crush Shield, destroy the Crucible. Simple. At least the literal explanation has them doing just that (probably the reason why Harbinger leaves).

The same Prothean AIs that
allowed the Protheans to get subverted from within by indoctrinated
Protheans?

Vigil and Vendetta were built to combat the Reapers specifically; I think their indoctrination-sensing technology might have been new.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 20 octobre 2012 - 03:38 .

[BansheeOwnage]

plfranke wrote...

@X
lol how exactly could he be fully functional, every other hit from Harbinger completely vaporized the other soldiers. He was as precise as you get.

@Bleeding
I don't know how you could come to that conclusion considering the game beats you over the head more times than I can count with some major character saying "We can't defeat the Reapers conventionally."

You can't go through the Omega-4 relay! You can't defeat Sovereign! Saren is unstoppable! The reapers don't exist!

How many other things do people tell Shepard are impossible and Shepard does?

Thane: "You've built a career out of performing the impossible"

[Xilizhra]

You can't go through the Omega-4 relay! You can't defeat Sovereign! Saren is unstoppable! The reapers don't exist!

"You can't control the Reapers!"
Oh, wait, that's one supposed impossibility you uphold. For some reason.

[BansheeOwnage]

Xilizhra wrote...

starchild said the Leviathan became the first TRUE Reaper. If the Reapers are truly gestalt intelligences formed by the collective psyche of the harvested race, shouldn't all Reapers be true Reapers? Other than maybe transport ships. What does the "true" mean? I think it's possible that a "true" Reaper may require a willing organic to be uploaded as the mind of the Reaper. How does liquified organic paste retain cognitive function anyway? It's patently absurd. That could be one explanation.

All right, have the Reaper troops grab the stunned, living Shepard, and take her aboard Harbinger where indoctrination will be certain.

Another more simple explanation is that the crucible is a legitimate threat and the Reapers feel an indoctrinated Shepard would be invaluable in neutralizing that threat

Then they can just shoot the thing. Ignore Sword, crush Shield, destroy the Crucible. Simple. At least the literal explanation has them doing just that (probably the reason why Harbinger leaves).

The same Prothean AIs that
allowed the Protheans to get subverted from within by indoctrinated
Protheans?

Vigil and Vendetta were built to combat the Reapers specifically; I think their indoctrination-sensing technology might have been new.

Them not shooting it makes no sense. Conversely, them shooting it while Shepard is deciding makes less sense.

[plfranke]

Anything that Harbinger did before mass effect 3 is irrelevant because Harbinger would have taken an even greater interest in Shepard after he defeated Harbinger's personal goon squad. I find it hard to believe that when Harbinger said "We will find another way" he meant "Screw it we're going in guns hot"

Also, Harbinger used a confirmed indoctrinated agent, The Illusive Man, to bring Shepard back to life so your point about Harbinger shooting to kill is invaild.