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[spotlessvoid]

"All right, have the Reaper troops grab the stunned, living Shepard, and take her aboard Harbinger where indoctrination will be certain."

Who says that isn't exactly what happens after Shep is indoctrinated?

[Xilizhra]

Them not shooting it makes no sense. Conversely, them shooting it while Shepard is deciding makes less sense.

And how, pray, does it make less sense?

Anything that Harbinger did before mass effect 3 is irrelevant because Harbinger would have taken an even greater interest in Shepard after he defeated Harbinger's personal goon squad. I find it hard to believe that when Harbinger said "We will find another way" he meant "Screw it we're going in guns hot"

Defeating the Collectors is more of an accomplishment than killing Sovereign? Really? Especially since it didn't even get all of the Collectors. And remember that Harbinger was speaking to the Collector General with the "You have failed. We will find another way" line, not Shepard; it was probably saying "We'll find a way to build a human Reaper without you."

Also, Harbinger used a confirmed indoctrinated agent, The Illusive Man, to bring Shepard back to life so your point about Harbinger shooting to kill is invaild.

TIM wasn't indoctrinated back then, or at least not enough to be actually helping the Reapers. His desire to resurrect Shepard to fight the Reapers was sincere; if he needed her alive for other reasons, he was certainly blase about trying to kill her in ME3, from Mars onward.

Who says that isn't exactly what happens after Shep is indoctrinated?

Well, if you're assuming that they shoveled a whole bunch of rubble aboard Harbinger for the lulz...

[Bill Casey]

Indoctrinated Shepard would allow them to lose fewer reapers...
Javik speaks of entire worlds that fell to the reapers because of a few indoctrinated leaders...

[Xilizhra]

Bill Casey wrote...

Indoctrinated Shepard would allow them to lose fewer reapers...
Javik speaks of entire worlds that fell to the reapers because of a few indoctrinated leaders...

This isn't one of them. The Reapers are on the verge of complete victory. Indoctrinating one soldier is redundant. Getting Hackett might be worthwhile, but not Shepard.

[TSA_383]

Xilizhra wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's irrelevant anyway, because in IT Shepard isn't indoctrinated until they make the choice to support the Reapers' views and methods.

So how are you explaining all of the supposed hallucinations earlier, if Shepard isn't indoctrinated until the very end? And if Shepard is indoctrinated at the very end, how the hell does she resist a blast that powerful?

Some believe the indoctrination attempt happens during the mako crash which explains the terrible evac scene, which is not only not believable but is completely contradictory to a character like Javik.

Okay, great. Now, how is Shepard even functional right now? Being both indoctrinated and dying in a field of rubble? And why the hell would Harbinger bother to use an indoctrination burst when it has a freakin' huge molten metal beam?

The reapers have wanted Shepard alive since at least ME2, that much was blatantly obvious (particularly in arrival).

plfranke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

plfranke wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

It's irrelevant anyway, because in IT Shepard isn't indoctrinated until they make the choice to support the Reapers' views and methods.

So how are you explaining all of the supposed hallucinations earlier, if Shepard isn't indoctrinated until the very end? And if Shepard is indoctrinated at the very end, how the hell does she resist a blast that powerful?

Some believe the indoctrination attempt happens during the mako crash which explains the terrible evac scene, which is not only not believable but is completely contradictory to a character like Javik.

Okay, great. Now, how is Shepard even functional right now? Being both indoctrinated and dying in a field of rubble? And why the hell would Harbinger bother to use an indoctrination burst when it has a freakin' huge molten metal beam?

The problem I've never seen addressed by ITers is one that you just posed, motive. The Reapers already have this battle won so it doesn't really matter whether they indoctrinate Shepard or not, (assuming it's not a full Reaper trap). Even if it was a Reaper trap though I don't see why it matters considering the Reapers just completely outgun everyone. However, for every problem there is with IT there are 2 for the literal interperetation. 

Likely as not the reapers want Shepard's mind to use it for the human reaper. Possibly due to his/her ability to influence people....
*cough*:

TSA_383 wrote...

Allow me to present to you all, the implantation theory:

It seems bizarre that almost every character in ME2 and ME3 who is around Shepard for any extended length of time becomes strongly Shepard-sexual. Just look at Samara, steely justicar who totally wants some rumpy pumpy after spending just minutes conversing with the Commander.

So, maybe the illusive man placed some kind of indoctrination beacon in shepard's genitals. Going back through ME2 and ME3, I think we can all see plenty of occasions in which this would explain a lot.

Samara, Shiala, Jack, Thane... Nobody is safe from Commander Shepard's crotch-mounted indoctrination device.

[Bill Casey]

Xilizhra wrote...

Getting Hackett might be worthwhile, but not Shepard.

Now you're just being stupid on purpose...

[Xilizhra]

The reapers have wanted Shepard alive since at least ME2, that much was blatantly obvious (particularly in arrival).

So killing Shepard at the beginning of the game and repeatedly trying to kill Shepard (again, remember the "Preserve Shepard's body if possible" line) throughout the entire game isn't sufficient evidence to the contrary?

[TSA_383]

Xilizhra wrote...

The reapers have wanted Shepard alive since at least ME2, that much was blatantly obvious (particularly in arrival).

So killing Shepard at the beginning of the game and repeatedly trying to kill Shepard (again, remember the "Preserve Shepard's body if possible" line) throughout the entire game isn't sufficient evidence to the contrary?

Arrival.
Kenson (whilst being controlled by harbinger and with big yellow eyes):
"We need shepard alive"
Harbinger (speaking directly to Shepard in some poorly explained way):
"Struggle if you must, your mind will be ours"

+ other quotes I can't be bothered digging out.
Seems like they need to retrieve shepard alive or dead, but ideally alive...

[Xilizhra]

Arrival.
Kenson (whilst being controlled by harbinger and with big yellow eyes):
"We need shepard alive"
Harbinger (speaking directly to Shepard in some poorly explained way):
"Struggle if you must, your mind will be ours"

I don't think she was actually controlled by Harbinger; she doesn't have any implants. I think Shepard was seeing the indoctrination as a visible effect due to being blasted by Object Rho earlier. However, Kenson was very obviously in the "mental degradation" stage of indoctrination, as she explained the entirety of the Project and exactly how to use it, correctly, to Shepard, for no damned reason. She literally handed the means of her own doom to Shepard. Kenson is, thanks to indoctrination, a complete moron, and I won't trust her word over Harbinger's own.
In short, it'd be kind of nice for Harbinger if Shepard was alive, but it's a low priority at best. And, of course, Arrival may have just had a different writer.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 20 octobre 2012 - 03:59 .

[BleedingUranium]

Xilizhra wrote...

Arrival.
Kenson (whilst being controlled by harbinger and with big yellow eyes):
"We need shepard alive"
Harbinger (speaking directly to Shepard in some poorly explained way):
"Struggle if you must, your mind will be ours"

I don't think she was actually controlled by Harbinger; she doesn't have any implants. I think Shepard was seeing the indoctrination as a visible effect due to being blasted by Object Rho earlier. However, Kenson was very obviously in the "mental degradation" stage of indoctrination, as she explained the entirety of the Project and exactly how to use it, correctly, to Shepard, for no damned reason. She literally handed the means of her own doom to Shepard. Kenson is, thanks to indoctrination, a complete moron, and I won't trust her word over Harbinger's own.
In short, it'd be kind of nice for Harbinger if Shepard was alive, but it's a low priority at best. And, of course, Arrival may have just had a different writer.

She had glowing yellow eyes.

Actually the writer for Arrival is the same one who was the lead on ME3

[Hrothdane]

Xilizhra wrote...

Arrival.
Kenson (whilst being controlled by harbinger and with big yellow eyes):
"We need shepard alive"
Harbinger (speaking directly to Shepard in some poorly explained way):
"Struggle if you must, your mind will be ours"

I don't think she was actually controlled by Harbinger; she doesn't have any implants. I think Shepard was seeing the indoctrination as a visible effect due to being blasted by Object Rho earlier. However, Kenson was very obviously in the "mental degradation" stage of indoctrination, as she explained the entirety of the Project and exactly how to use it, correctly, to Shepard, for no damned reason. She literally handed the means of her own doom to Shepard. Kenson is, thanks to indoctrination, a complete moron, and I won't trust her word over Harbinger's own.
In short, it'd be kind of nice for Harbinger if Shepard was alive, but it's a low priority at best. And, of course, Arrival may have just had a different writer.

We know for a fact Arrival was written by Mac Walters.

[Xilizhra]

We know for a fact Arrival was written by Mac Walters.

Very well. Shepard being alive is a minor perk that Harbinger will take advantage of, but is far from a priority.

She had glowing yellow eyes.

Yes. In that one scene. Never anywhere else. Again, I believe it was just Shepard seeing the indoctrination for a moment.

[BleedingUranium]

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, Harbinger used a confirmed indoctrinated agent, The Illusive Man, to bring Shepard back to life so your point about Harbinger shooting to kill is invaild.

TIM wasn't indoctrinated back then, or at least not enough to be actually helping the Reapers. His desire to resurrect Shepard to fight the Reapers was sincere; if he needed her alive for other reasons, he was certainly blase about trying to kill her in ME3, from Mars onward.

Wrong. He's been indoctrinated for several decades, it just became more obvious in ME3.

[BleedingUranium]

Xilizhra wrote...

We know for a fact Arrival was written by Mac Walters.

Very well. Shepard being alive is a minor perk that Harbinger will take advantage of, but is far from a priority.

She had glowing yellow eyes.

Yes. In that one scene. Never anywhere else. Again, I believe it was just Shepard seeing the indoctrination for a moment.

Or Harbinger was only controlling her at that point, then stopped. She was definitely just indoctrinated Kenson for the rest of the mission, not arguing that.

[Xilizhra]

BleedingUranium wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Also, Harbinger used a confirmed indoctrinated agent, The Illusive Man, to bring Shepard back to life so your point about Harbinger shooting to kill is invaild.

TIM wasn't indoctrinated back then, or at least not enough to be actually helping the Reapers. His desire to resurrect Shepard to fight the Reapers was sincere; if he needed her alive for other reasons, he was certainly blase about trying to kill her in ME3, from Mars onward.

Wrong. He's been indoctrinated for several decades, it just became more obvious in ME3.

When the hell did I start defending this bastard? But while he got hit with something that gave him a hint of indoctrination, it didn't affect his actions to favor the Reapers, just gave him some knowledge about them. His goal was genuinely to fight the Reapers, and he made genuine progress against the Collectors, until sometime during ME3. The Reapers attacked his Sanctuary project because it was a genuine threat.

Or Harbinger was only controlling her at that point, then stopped. She
was definitely just indoctrinated Kenson for the rest of the mission,
not arguing that.

But that makes no sense either. First of all, how, when Kenson lacks implants? Second, why? Assume direct control for something she was going to do anyway, namely imprison Shepard? Did he control her to ensure she did it badly?

Modifié par Xilizhra, 20 octobre 2012 - 04:05 .

[BansheeOwnage]

Xilizhra wrote...

Arrival.
Kenson (whilst being controlled by harbinger and with big yellow eyes):
"We need shepard alive"
Harbinger (speaking directly to Shepard in some poorly explained way):
"Struggle if you must, your mind will be ours"

I don't think she was actually controlled by Harbinger; she doesn't have any implants. I think Shepard was seeing the indoctrination as a visible effect due to being blasted by Object Rho earlier. However, Kenson was very obviously in the "mental degradation" stage of indoctrination, as she explained the entirety of the Project and exactly how to use it, correctly, to Shepard, for no damned reason. She literally handed the means of her own doom to Shepard. Kenson is, thanks to indoctrination, a complete moron, and I won't trust her word over Harbinger's own.
In short, it'd be kind of nice for Harbinger if Shepard was alive, but it's a low priority at best. And, of course, Arrival may have just had a different writer.

1. How is that possible, without being partially indoctrinated him/herself?

2. Arrival was written by freaking Mac Walters. The same guy who wrote the ending. Your argument is invalid.

Edit:  by Hroth.

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 20 octobre 2012 - 04:06 .

[Bill Casey]

Speaking of Mass Effect 2 DLC, here's a nice thread about the aesthetic similarity between Synthesis and the Overlord DLC...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 20 octobre 2012 - 04:07 .

[Xilizhra]

1. How is that possible, without being partially indoctrinated him/herself?

Object Rho had some kind of knockout field effect that may have had similar properties to indoctrination without actually giving the full package of it, and left a temporary lingering vision effect. Or maybe Shepard just hallucinated that while falling unconscious.

[BansheeOwnage]

Xilizhra wrote...

We know for a fact Arrival was written by Mac Walters.

Very well. Shepard being alive is a minor perk that Harbinger will take advantage of, but is far from a priority.

She had glowing yellow eyes.

Yes. In that one scene. Never anywhere else. Again, I believe it was just Shepard seeing the indoctrination for a moment.

1. I'm glad you know Harbinger's motive so well. Why didn't you tell us he just wants to be friends before the Starchild?

2. You can't "see" indoctrination! That makes no sense! And people think IT is baseless.

[spotlessvoid]

I love how when they just make things up it's not fan fiction

[BansheeOwnage]

Xilizhra wrote...

But that makes no sense either. First of all, how, when Kenson lacks implants? Second, why? Assume direct control for something she was going to do anyway, namely imprison Shepard? Did he control her to ensure she did it badly?

Do you know that for a fact?

[AresKeith]

magnetite wrote...

Just finished reading about Paul Grayson's indoctrination process in the Retribution novel. Quite interesting. Well, maybe not the torturing part, but the details and such.

Don't you wish Bioware used that Kai Leng, instead of Deception's Kai Leng?

[Xilizhra]

1. I'm glad you know Harbinger's motive so well. Why didn't you tell us he just wants to be friends before the Starchild?

I'm gleaning Harbinger's motive from all the times it's struck to kill. Which is all of them, except when it could only act through Object Rho and couldn't use lethal force to begin with.

2. You can't "see" indoctrination! That makes no sense! And people think IT is baseless.

Vigil and Vendetta both could. Or it could just be a hallucination.

Do you know that for a fact?

Comparing Saren to Garrus, and comparing a Collector to Javik... it isn't that hard to tell.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 20 octobre 2012 - 04:11 .

[BansheeOwnage]

Xilizhra wrote...

1. How is that possible, without being partially indoctrinated him/herself?

Object Rho had some kind of knockout field effect that may have had similar properties to indoctrination without actually giving the full package of it, and left a temporary lingering vision effect. Or maybe Shepard just hallucinated that while falling unconscious.

You know what has hallucinations as a symptom? Indoctrination. Besides, you're saying Object Rho indoctrinates the facility but not Shepard specifically?