80611 réponses à ce sujet

[demersel]

leonia42 wrote...

The re-written Heretics are neither Heretics or Orthodox, they are something "new" and you can't predict how they will evolve. You know where you stand before the rewrite.That new info they bring to the table also includes the Heretic stuff. How can you be sure the rewrite would completely eliminate that? What if it doesn't work and you've just turned all the Orthodox geth into Heretics by mistake? It's too much of a risk, too many unknown variables to contemplate. Plus there is the whole destruction of free will and I think most people can agree that the geth are sentient (or at least in ME2 they are definitely heading in that direction). Imposing order onto chaos is such a Reaper way of thinking, it's almost baffling that rewriting is considered a paragon option.

Everything you say is true. And i considered it. It is just the decision i made. It was maybe the hardest one in whole mass effect. I really wanted to give it a try, insted of just wiping everything completely for a change (i tend to do that - just the more i do it the emptier the universe feels.... This was my one time when i decided to give it a chance - to see what happens - fully knowing that by doing it ALL the geth my trurn into heretics). I was looking for some hope - hope that my view that the only wayh to be sure is kill it with fire/nuke it from orbit is not always the right one. 

Here's my service record (so you know where i stand)  - Earthborn, Ruthless. killed the rachni queen. Sacrificed the council, rewritten the heretics, destroyed the base. 

Modifié par demersel, 22 octobre 2012 - 03:02 .

[MegumiAzusa]

leonia42 wrote...

Also note that rewriting them doesn't necessarily solve the root issue: they could come to the same conclusion that they came too before and become Heretics again. Kind of like if you pick Control there's nothing that says that somebody might come along and change the variables again in the future. Killing the Heretics is both merciful and instrumental in purging the cancerous thought process from the consensus. It's the only way to be sure. Just like when Shepard chooses Destroy.

The interesting thing is that the movie for rewriting is called good, the movie for destroy bad.

[MegumiAzusa]

Jusseb wrote...

The Hollow wrote...

http://i1170.photobu...4L/6edbfd2a.png

Saw some earlier posts mentioning how there may be some other entities still to be discovered and I thought:

We still don't know who these guys on the right are, right?

If you look at it from a bit of an angled view, they could be 'Hanar'

Otherwise, who would they be?

Uhm I would just say they are races that were extinct many cycles ago? We don't need to know them.

[jojon2se]

"Destruction of free will"?
I would argue that destroying the heretic Geth and burning their books is to take away their free will, in that they are not given a second, un-equivalent_to_indoctrinated chance.

[FifthBeatle]

MegumiAzusa wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Also note that rewriting them doesn't necessarily solve the root issue: they could come to the same conclusion that they came too before and become Heretics again. Kind of like if you pick Control there's nothing that says that somebody might come along and change the variables again in the future. Killing the Heretics is both merciful and instrumental in purging the cancerous thought process from the consensus. It's the only way to be sure. Just like when Shepard chooses Destroy.

The interesting thing is that the movie for rewriting is called good, the movie for destroy bad.

I, like many I assume, chose to rewrite the Heretics in ME2, because it seemed like the "good" thing to do. Legion really made me think about what it means to be "alive" and I viewed the Heretics as indoctrinated Geth. If I (Shepard) could fix them I would. But after speaking with Legion in ME3 I immediately regretted that decision. Now, on all subsequent playthroughs, I feel compelled to destroy the Heretics.

[Hrothdane]

I rewrote the heretics because of something Legion said:

"No two species are identical. All must be judged by their own merits. Treating every species like ones' own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism."

In keeping with this view, I tried to instead look at the problem as if I was a geth. We know that geth do not like being hacked because of powerful defenses against it, which essentially do a system restore. We also know that they place a high value on consensus, but individual processes can have a wide variance of ideas, as evidenced by the lack of consensus on the rewriting issue. We also know that the heretic geth had their programming altered by the Reapers. In essence, the Reapers just "hacked" the heretic geth in a way that a normal system restore would not fix. I just fixed the induced programming error to return the geth to their original selves before being altered. Any new experiences and opinions these geth might have would be valued by the consensus.

[Unschuld]

Seeing this thread makes me sad.

Not because it still exists, but because more and more it seems like Bioware has no intentions of using any aspect of it. Honestly, I had hoped that this would have been true, and wished it was part of the game. More and more, it just looks like bad writing and missed opportunities.

[paxxton]

SwobyJ wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

Seeing this thread makes me sad.

Not because it still exists, but because more and more it seems like Bioware has no intentions of using any aspect of it. Honestly, I had hoped that this would have been true, and wished it was part of the game. More and more, it just looks like bad writing and missed opportunities.

Leviathan is an indoctrination DLC.

Why wouldn't we still be here?

I think he refers to BioWare not admiting IT is true and making up crazy explanations for obviously impossible things (like the Breath Scene). Tbh, if Omega doesn't hint at IT in a more significant and obvious (direct) way, I might get worried about IT.

[Unschuld]

Their denials have become quite a bit more vehement since the EC.


It's gone from "lol maybe indoc is true in some aspects *wink wink*  Wait and see!  ;)"

to basically "****ing NO! There will be NO more exposition involving the ending. Period. Shepard is either DEAD or alive or maybe DEAD even though we showed a scene hinting of him/her maybe alive."

Modifié par Unschuld, 22 octobre 2012 - 04:12 .

[DoomsdayDevice]

Unschuld wrote...

Seeing this thread makes me sad.

Not because it still exists, but because more and more it seems like Bioware has no intentions of using any aspect of it. Honestly, I had hoped that this would have been true, and wished it was part of the game. More and more, it just looks like bad writing and missed opportunities.

I'm guessing you haven't played Leviathan, the DLC in which they included a mind control scene that exactly mirrors the first moment in the decision chamber.

Shep is on hands and knees, kid walks over, and says 'Wake up.'
Shep is on hands and knees, Ann walks over and says 'Breathe.'

(Also: wake up/breathe: breath scene reference)

Then they go on to explain how the Leviathans' mind control power can read your mind and build illusions (inluding persons and objects) from your memories. Then they tell you how Harbinger was made from harvested Leviathans. Then they explain how every Reaper has this ability to influence organics, and over countless sycles they have perfected it. So, the Reapers can do what the Leviathans can do, only much better.

This is basically Bioware saying that yes, the ending can be an illusion.

[MegumiAzusa]

Unschuld wrote...

Their denials have become quite a bit more vehement since the EC.

Their denials that it's a possible solution and that they wont tell until they decide to?

[MegumiAzusa]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

Seeing this thread makes me sad.

Not because it still exists, but because more and more it seems like Bioware has no intentions of using any aspect of it. Honestly, I had hoped that this would have been true, and wished it was part of the game. More and more, it just looks like bad writing and missed opportunities.

I'm guessing you haven't played Leviathan, the DLC in which they included a mind control scene that exactly mirrors the first moment in the decision chamber.

Shep is on hands and knees, kid walks over, and says 'Wake up.'
Shep is on hands and knees, Ann walks over and says 'Breathe.'

(Also: wake up/breathe: breath scene reference)

Then they go on to explain how the Leviathans' mind control power can read your mind and build illusions (inluding persons and objects) from your memories. Then they tell you how Harbinger was made from harvested Leviathans. Then they explain how every Reaper has this ability to influence organics, and over countless sycles they have perfected it. So, the Reapers can do what the Leviathans can do, only much better.

This is basically Bioware saying that yes, the ending can be an illusion.

You missed the slap in the face for the "Shepard cannot be indoctrinated because x" sayers as Leviathan shows it's easy to do and said the Reapers could if they wanted to.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 22 octobre 2012 - 04:15 .

[Unschuld]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

I'm guessing you haven't played Leviathan, the DLC in which they included a mind control scene that exactly mirrors the first moment in the decision chamber.

I've played, and I tried to go with that interpretation, believe me. But the more I see the current statements of the Bioware staff, the more it makes me look at Leviathan as a DLC that was meant to foreshadow and reveal the nature catalyst prior to the exposition he was given with the EC. The EC basically did that, and turned the reveal at the end of Leviathan redunant.

Regardless of the nice little parallels I can draw between indoc and the current story (and regardless of whether I headcanon indoc as the reasoning behind the ending's ridiculous tomfoolery), it looks less and less like the writers' actual intents. Like that interview immediately preceeding the release of the EC where Casey & Mac state that the original ending lead some fans to "interpret the story in way they did not intend".

Modifié par Unschuld, 22 octobre 2012 - 04:22 .

[FifthBeatle]

Unschuld wrote...

Their denials have become quite a bit more vehement since the EC.


It's gone from "lol maybe indoc is true in some aspects *wink wink*  Wait and see!  ;)"

to basically "****ing NO! There will be NO more exposition involving the ending. Period. Shepard is either DEAD or alive or maybe DEAD even though we showed a scene hinting of him/her maybe alive."

They have done no such thing.

But let's remember that if they are planning the big reveal (and I, and the rest of the people on this thread believe that to be the case), then it makes a lot of sense that they drag out the DLC cycle as long as possible to maximize their profit. As soon as you give a complete ending, it is hard to sell additional content.

[Unschuld]

FifthBeatle wrote...
They have done no such thing.

But let's remember that if they are planning the big reveal (and I, and the rest of the people on this thread believe that to be the case), then it makes a lot of sense that they drag out the DLC cycle as long as possible to maximize their profit. As soon as you give a complete ending, it is hard to sell additional content.

The statements of Chris Priestly and TullyAckland regarding future DLC come to mind.

True, they wouldn't prematurely reveal anything big if it were planned. However, they've gone from a general tone of ambiguity to complete denial. 

[BleedingUranium]

Hrothdane wrote...

I rewrote the heretics because of something Legion said:

"No two species are identical. All must be judged by their own merits. Treating every species like ones' own is racist. Even benign anthropomorphism."

In keeping with this view, I tried to instead look at the problem as if I was a geth. We know that geth do not like being hacked because of powerful defenses against it, which essentially do a system restore. We also know that they place a high value on consensus, but individual processes can have a wide variance of ideas, as evidenced by the lack of consensus on the rewriting issue. We also know that the heretic geth had their programming altered by the Reapers. In essence, the Reapers just "hacked" the heretic geth in a way that a normal system restore would not fix. I just fixed the induced programming error to return the geth to their original selves before being altered. Any new experiences and opinions these geth might have would be valued by the consensus.

This was pretty much my thinking. It's the Geth version of indoctrination, they were intentionally manipulated, so it's not their choice or fault. If they had chosen this path, then it would be brainwashing and I'd destroy them. But since you're just undoing the damage, it's not. To me, at least.

Interesting that this is one of the hardest decisions...

[MegumiAzusa]

Unschuld wrote...

FifthBeatle wrote...
They have done no such thing.

But let's remember that if they are planning the big reveal (and I, and the rest of the people on this thread believe that to be the case), then it makes a lot of sense that they drag out the DLC cycle as long as possible to maximize their profit. As soon as you give a complete ending, it is hard to sell additional content.

The statements of Chris Priestly and TullyAckland regarding future DLC come to mind.

True, they wouldn't prematurely reveal anything big if it were planned. However, they've gone from a general tone of ambiguity to complete denial.

Only in your opinion. They never said they planned on explaining the endings more. In fact they denied more when they actually did, like adding opt out.

Modifié par MegumiAzusa, 22 octobre 2012 - 04:30 .

[Davik Kang]

 Some good ideas today...

demersel wrote...

What if there is a third force we don't know yet know about? We know about the reapers, we know about leviathans. But there is clearly somebody else at work. The artifacts that leviathans use to control their thralls - they are similiar to those spheres we think are prothean artifacts in ME1 and ME2 but only similiar - those are really quite different - they are perfectly round, and they can change size and mass. The VI on thessia said something about patterns repeating itself, and reapers being only the servants of the pattern - we assume he meant the AI that created the reapers and that later poses as the catalyst. But that could be wrong (in fact it is most likely wrong). So what are those patterns besides the reapers? We know there is the shadow broker, that has been part several cycles at least. (and that it is more of an idea, a role, then something physical. We know that spliner factions arguing for control are part of this pattern - and it is also more of an idea actually (in fact the illusive nman straight out says it). The reapers are really more of an idea. Sure, the have form, but they are born out of an idea.

MegumiAzusa wrote...

I just noticed...
remember the image of the Geth Dreadnaught with the strange light I posted some time ago

Notice the brown/pink colors from the light, and the blue colors that are the regular colors on this mission on the deck above and below.
Now compare these with

It's the exact same color scheme.

Also finally uploaded the low EMS ending post EC as I couldn't find it here if you want to skip to the Guardianhere

BleedingUranium wrote...

I've got some more info in the Predator/Carnifex switch, but first, I'm going to compare the gun symbology to the same thing in one of my favourite movies: The Bourne Ultimatum.

Contains spoilers (obviously).

Near the end of the film, Jason Bourne confronts the head of the CIA program that he used to be a part of. As someone familiar with firearms, I notice the smallest errors relating to them. This is not a small error, it's very obvious. Actually, I've since figured out it's not an error at all!

Bourne's signature gun, and the gun he carries throughout the final sequence of the movie, is a SIG Pro, while the gun he uses in the flashback of first commiting to the program is a Glock 17.

As seen in the clip, when he first points his gun at Dr. Hirsch it's a SIG Pro, but in the very next shot, when it's up to his head, it's a G17. Then we enter the flashback of him shooting the unknown man to prove he's willing to do whatever they ask. He uses a G17. As soon as he does, Hirsch says he's "no longer David Webb" (his real name).

The clip ends there, and I was unable to find the rest of the scene, but the very next thing we see is back in the present, with Hirsch still at gun point, but then Bourne says "I'm no longer Jason Bourne", and the gun is now back to the SIG Pro again, like it really is.

Even if you haven't seen the movie, you can understand the symbology (I hope).


This is exactly the same as the Predator/Carnifex symbology in Destroy, and we have proved beyond a doubt that it was intentional.

Two more interesting things I discovered about that: One is that in the flashforward of Anderson shooting the Destroy tube, he has a Predator the entire time! That makes perfect sense, as he represents the part of your mind that is not tainted by indoctrination.

The other thing is really cool. The Banner for Solo Mastery, the one with broken-armoured Shepard walking away from the beam, the one that's already interesting with just that, you know what gun Shep's holding? You have to look carefully, but there's no doubt it's a Predator!

I think that this Banner, along with the Reaper Mastery one, that has a Harbinger hologram in the dream Citadel hallway, should be the official Banners of IT 

[BleedingUranium]

Unschuld wrote...

FifthBeatle wrote...
They have done no such thing.

But let's remember that if they are planning the big reveal (and I, and the rest of the people on this thread believe that to be the case), then it makes a lot of sense that they drag out the DLC cycle as long as possible to maximize their profit. As soon as you give a complete ending, it is hard to sell additional content.

The statements of Chris Priestly and TullyAckland regarding future DLC come to mind.

True, they wouldn't prematurely reveal anything big if it were planned. However, they've gone from a general tone of ambiguity to complete denial. 

The quote I always come back to, I forget which BW person said it, or in response to what (great, right? ) is that they'll "let the content speak for itself".

IT doesn't need post end content to be true, but most of us here do want that. If we don't have something fairly concrete by the end of the DLC cycle, we're probably not getting anything. That said, there's still Omega, and one more DLC after for sure, at the very least.

[BleedingUranium]

Davik Kang wrote...

 Some good ideas today...

*snip*

Yay!

[Unschuld]

BleedingUranium wrote...
The quote I always come back to, I forget which BW person said it, or in response to what (great, right? ) is that they'll "let the content speak for itself".

IT doesn't need post end content to be true, but most of us here do want that. If we don't have something fairly concrete by the end of the DLC cycle, we're probably not getting anything. That said, there's still Omega, and one more DLC after for sure, at the very least.

I would hope so.

That quote by the way is Gamble, made regarding the EC during the panel at PAX east, which I heard firsthand (first... ear?). We'll see regarding future DLC and other content, as I would love something that's actually  narratively cohesive (like IT has the potential to be), but at this point I'm dissappointed enough that I won't be holding my breath anymore.