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[Cyberfrog81]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

Seeing this thread makes me sad.

Not because it still exists, but because more and more it seems like Bioware has no intentions of using any aspect of it. Honestly, I had hoped that this would have been true, and wished it was part of the game. More and more, it just looks like bad writing and missed opportunities.

I'm guessing you haven't played Leviathan, the DLC in which they included a mind control scene that exactly mirrors the first moment in the decision chamber.

Shep is on hands and knees, kid walks over, and says 'Wake up.'
Shep is on hands and knees, Ann walks over and says 'Breathe.'

(Also: wake up/breathe: breath scene reference)

Then they go on to explain how the Leviathans' mind control power can read your mind and build illusions (inluding persons and objects) from your memories. Then they tell you how Harbinger was made from harvested Leviathans. Then they explain how every Reaper has this ability to influence organics, and over countless sycles they have perfected it. So, the Reapers can do what the Leviathans can do, only much better.

This is basically Bioware saying that yes, the ending can be an illusion.

Agreed. HOWEVER... Leviathan also strongly foreshadows the Catalyst as an actual AI. This undermines the view I used to hold, which was that "Child" = Harbinger. So either the "Intelligence" is not Harbinger, or the Leviathan are just more manipulative, lying scumbags.

[FifthBeatle]

Unschuld wrote...

BleedingUranium wrote...
The quote I always come back to, I forget which BW person said it, or in response to what (great, right? ) is that they'll "let the content speak for itself".

IT doesn't need post end content to be true, but most of us here do want that. If we don't have something fairly concrete by the end of the DLC cycle, we're probably not getting anything. That said, there's still Omega, and one more DLC after for sure, at the very least.

I would hope so.

That quote by the way is Gamble, made regarding the EC during the panel at PAX east, which I heard firsthand (first... ear?). We'll see regarding future DLC and other content, as I would love something that's actually  narratively cohesive (like IT has the potential to be), but at this point I'm dissappointed enough that I won't be holding my breath anymore.

Don't forget the "If you knew what we are planning you would hold on to your ME3 save files forever..." Tweet from Gamble. The fact is that there are a million different comments from producers/developers/community managers to argue one way or another, but the evidence that exists in game speaks for itself.

Frankly, I agree with the idea that we don't need any Shepard wakes up DLC to confirm IT for me, however I would be shocked if there is no firm conclusion to the series one way or another. 

[FifthBeatle]

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

Seeing this thread makes me sad.

Not because it still exists, but because more and more it seems like Bioware has no intentions of using any aspect of it. Honestly, I had hoped that this would have been true, and wished it was part of the game. More and more, it just looks like bad writing and missed opportunities.

I'm guessing you haven't played Leviathan, the DLC in which they included a mind control scene that exactly mirrors the first moment in the decision chamber.

Shep is on hands and knees, kid walks over, and says 'Wake up.'
Shep is on hands and knees, Ann walks over and says 'Breathe.'

(Also: wake up/breathe: breath scene reference)

Then they go on to explain how the Leviathans' mind control power can read your mind and build illusions (inluding persons and objects) from your memories. Then they tell you how Harbinger was made from harvested Leviathans. Then they explain how every Reaper has this ability to influence organics, and over countless sycles they have perfected it. So, the Reapers can do what the Leviathans can do, only much better.

This is basically Bioware saying that yes, the ending can be an illusion.

Agreed. HOWEVER... Leviathan also strongly foreshadows the Catalyst as an actual AI. This undermines the view I used to hold, which was that "Child" = Harbinger. So either the "Intelligence" is not Harbinger, or the Leviathan are just more manipulative, lying scumbags.

I think most of us are in the Intelligence = Harbinger = Child camp. 

[DoomsdayDevice]

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

Seeing this thread makes me sad.

Not because it still exists, but because more and more it seems like Bioware has no intentions of using any aspect of it. Honestly, I had hoped that this would have been true, and wished it was part of the game. More and more, it just looks like bad writing and missed opportunities.

I'm guessing you haven't played Leviathan, the DLC in which they included a mind control scene that exactly mirrors the first moment in the decision chamber.

Shep is on hands and knees, kid walks over, and says 'Wake up.'
Shep is on hands and knees, Ann walks over and says 'Breathe.'

(Also: wake up/breathe: breath scene reference)

Then they go on to explain how the Leviathans' mind control power can read your mind and build illusions (inluding persons and objects) from your memories. Then they tell you how Harbinger was made from harvested Leviathans. Then they explain how every Reaper has this ability to influence organics, and over countless sycles they have perfected it. So, the Reapers can do what the Leviathans can do, only much better.

This is basically Bioware saying that yes, the ending can be an illusion.

Agreed. HOWEVER... Leviathan also strongly foreshadows the Catalyst as an actual AI. This undermines the view I used to hold, which was that "Child" = Harbinger. So either the "Intelligence" is not Harbinger, or the Leviathan are just more manipulative, lying scumbags.

Huh? That doesn't undermine it at all.

Leviathans created an AI. AI betrayed them, harvested the Leviathans and built the first true Reaper from them, the one we know as Harbinger.

What do you think happened to the AI?

Did he decide to go sit on the Citadel for aeons, waiting for some organic to 'change the variables' with a crucible device the Reapers supposedly even tried to eradicate?

Or did he install himself as the mind of Harbinger?

If I were an AI, and created a Reaper, I'd sure use it as my vessel.

"Assuming control of this form."

Just look at EDI and how she installed herself into Eva's body.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 22 octobre 2012 - 05:15 .

[Unschuld]

FifthBeatle wrote...

Frankly, I agree with the idea that we don't need any Shepard wakes up DLC to confirm IT for me, however I would be shocked if there is no firm conclusion to the series one way or another. 

Agreed. I don't care if the Shepard breath scene at the end is that last thing that happens in 3, as long as something finally explains why the hell the main character would make it all the way to the denouement of the story only to go against everything previously learned and capitulate to the hive mind of the main antagonist.... and in those ending choices rewarded as such... um, what?

Again, I'm aware of that Gamble quote, but it can only carry me so far. If you were to characterize my general mood about Mass Effect as sour and embittered as compared to six months ago, you would not be incorrect. I'm still looking forward to playing through future DLC, but I have zero expectations for betterment of the story.

Modifié par Unschuld, 22 octobre 2012 - 05:27 .

[MaximizedAction]

Unschuld wrote...

Agreed. I don't care if the Shepard breath scene at the end is that last thing that happens in 3, as long as something finally explains why the hell the main character would make it all the way to the denouement of the story only to go against everything previously learned and capitulate to the hive mind of the main antagonist.

Again, I'm aware of that Gamble quote, but it can only carry me so far. If you were to characterize my general mood about Mass Effect as sour and embittered as compared to six months ago, you would not be incorrect. I'm still looking forward to playing through future DLC, but I have zero expectations for betterment of the story.

Do not think you're alone on this one. I for one, have no negative emotions about ME3 anymore, however, also no real genuinly positive ones, either.
I simply stopped caring and along came the not-worrying.

What reason should anyone, who's been on this ride for 7 months, have to still care emotionly, anyway? IMO that's not healthy.
Either stay for the puzzle or move along if you fear disappointment. Ok, there is the thing of 'strong hope/faith' but for me, this one kept putting me under too much stress.
Less heart, more brain. Then things tend to become clearer.

And then you'll find out if you want to stay or leave.

[demersel]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Huh? That doesn't undermine it at all.

Leviathans created an AI. AI betrayed them, harvested the Leviathans and built the first true Reaper from them, the one we know as Harbinger.

What do you think happened to the AI?

Did he decide to go sit on the Citadel for aeons, waiting for some organic to 'change the variables' with a crucible device the Reapers supposedly even tried to eradicate?

Or did he install himself as the mind of Harbinger?

If I were an AI, and created a Reaper, I'd sure use it as my vessel.

"Assuming control of this form."

Just look at EDI and how she installed herself into Eva's body.

Not to mention that at the time it all happened - there was no citadel YET, - it was build MUCH MUCH later. So why would that AI be on the citadel at all? 

[DoomsdayDevice]

demersel wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Huh? That doesn't undermine it at all.

Leviathans created an AI. AI betrayed them, harvested the Leviathans and built the first true Reaper from them, the one we know as Harbinger.

What do you think happened to the AI?

Did he decide to go sit on the Citadel for aeons, waiting for some organic to 'change the variables' with a crucible device the Reapers supposedly even tried to eradicate?

Or did he install himself as the mind of Harbinger?

If I were an AI, and created a Reaper, I'd sure use it as my vessel.

"Assuming control of this form."

Just look at EDI and how she installed herself into Eva's body.

Not to mention that at the time it all happened - there was no citadel YET, - it was build MUCH MUCH later. So why would that AI be on the citadel at all? 

Indeed.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 22 octobre 2012 - 05:47 .

[Cyberfrog81]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

Leviathan also strongly foreshadows the Catalyst as an actual AI. This undermines the view I used to hold, which was that "Child" = Harbinger. So either the "Intelligence" is not Harbinger, or the Leviathan are just more manipulative, lying scumbags.

Huh? That doesn't undermine it at all.

Leviathans created an AI. AI betrayed them, harvested the Leviathans and built the first true Reaper from them, the one we know as Harbinger.

What do you think happened to the AI?

Did he decide to go sit on the Citadel for aeons, waiting for some organic to 'change the variables' with a crucible device the Reapers supposedly even tried to eradicate?

Or did he install himself as the mind of Harbinger?

If I were an AI, and created a Reaper, I'd sure use it as my vessel.

Just look at EDI and how she installed herself into Eva's body.

Could be true, but I consider this pure speculation.

The point is, before Leviathan there was little in the way of foreshadowing of the Catalyst, so you could make the case that he's a hallucination / Harby messing with you. The EC strenghtened this view by having "Child" get a reaper voice if you ****** it off, and by coming damn close to confirming that Control turns Shepard into a Reaper.

But with Leviathan, you can no longer say that the AI didn't get some sersious foreshadowing. "He" could be real, as an entity separate from a Reaper; separate from Harbinger. As for where the AI spent his non-Citadel days, I suspect BioWare neither knows nor cares.

[DoomsdayDevice]

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

Leviathan also strongly foreshadows the Catalyst as an actual AI. This undermines the view I used to hold, which was that "Child" = Harbinger. So either the "Intelligence" is not Harbinger, or the Leviathan are just more manipulative, lying scumbags.

Huh? That doesn't undermine it at all.

Leviathans created an AI. AI betrayed them, harvested the Leviathans and built the first true Reaper from them, the one we know as Harbinger.

What do you think happened to the AI?

Did he decide to go sit on the Citadel for aeons, waiting for some organic to 'change the variables' with a crucible device the Reapers supposedly even tried to eradicate?

Or did he install himself as the mind of Harbinger?

If I were an AI, and created a Reaper, I'd sure use it as my vessel.

Just look at EDI and how she installed herself into Eva's body.

Could be true, but I consider this pure speculation.

The point is, before Leviathan there was little in the way of foreshadowing of the Catalyst, so you could make the case that he's a hallucination / Harby messing with you. The EC strenghtened this view by having "Child" get a reaper voice if you ****** it off, and by coming damn close to confirming that Control turns Shepard into a Reaper.

But with Leviathan, you can no longer say that the AI didn't get some sersious foreshadowing. "He" could be real, as an entity separate from a Reaper; separate from Harbinger. As for where the AI spent his non-Citadel days, I suspect BioWare neither knows nor cares.

The fact that this AI exists, does in no way make it any less believable that he's in Shep's head.

1. The most convincing lies are the ones based on the truth.
2. If Shepard knows about the AI, the Reapers can take this knowledge from his mind and use it against him. (And we learn they can do this too in Leviathan.)
3. It is not explicitly said nor implied that the AI and Harbinger are separate entities.
4. The fact that this AI exists, does not mean he is the one we meet him in the end. It may mean Harbinger is posing as the AI, or Harbinger IS the AI.

All the 'AI foreshadowing' does, is keep it ambiguous, but it is in no way conclusive.

Think about it, if they revealed the AI to be Harbinger, that would confirm IT.

Modifié par DoomsdayDevice, 22 octobre 2012 - 05:54 .

[demersel]

Cyberfrog81 wrote...

Could be true, but I consider this pure speculation.

The point is, before Leviathan there was little in the way of foreshadowing of the Catalyst, so you could make the case that he's a hallucination / Harby messing with you. The EC strenghtened this view by having "Child" get a reaper voice if you ****** it off, and by coming damn close to confirming that Control turns Shepard into a Reaper.

But with Leviathan, you can no longer say that the AI didn't get some sersious foreshadowing. "He" could be real, as an entity separate from a Reaper; separate from Harbinger. As for where the AI spent his non-Citadel days, I suspect BioWare neither knows nor cares.

So out of like four hours of gameplay all about indoctrination in one form or another, you choose to remember just one line of diologe? (spoken by a hardly trustworthy character, which we know to lie and manipulate). Does that not remind you of something?

Modifié par demersel, 22 octobre 2012 - 05:58 .

[BleedingUranium]

I believe Byne first pointed this out, but if you're going to argue that because we know a Reaper AI existed before the end, the kid must be real, then you'll also have to say that because we know Anderson and TIM existed before the end, they must be real there too.

The end sequence is drawn from memory; it makes more sense to know about a Reaper AI ahead of time.

'd by Doomsday

Modifié par BleedingUranium, 22 octobre 2012 - 06:00 .

[Unschuld]

MaximizedAction wrote...

And then you'll find out if you want to stay or leave.

Honestly don't know why I still come, other than curiosity and updates on DLC releases. I certainly don't hang around like I used to.

[spotlessvoid]

Unschuld! Been a while.

The one thing that keeps me still hopeful is that Mike Gamble refuses to confirm or deny the community managers statements regarding additional ending content. If there really is nothing coming and that's their official stance, what is Gamble's motivation for repeatedly refusing to answer?

[Eryri]

BleedingUranium wrote...

I believe Byne first pointed this out, but if you're going to argue that because we know a Reaper AI existed before the end, the kid must be real, then you'll also have to say that because we know Anderson and TIM existed before the end, they must be real there too.

The end sequence is drawn from memory; it makes more sense to know about a Reaper AI ahead of time.

'd by Doomsday

Plus the Reapers are machines after all. They didn't spring out of a cabbage patch, we know something must have built them.

It doesn't mean they're still obediently doing what they were made to do. If indeed they were made to "establish a connection" between organic and synthetic life, and not just act as the Leviathan's enforcers.

[EpyonX3]

Unschuld wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

And then you'll find out if you want to stay or leave.

Honestly don't know why I still come, other than curiosity and updates on DLC releases. I certainly don't hang around like I used to.

Same here. I came for opinions about ME 4.

[BleedingUranium]

spotlessvoid wrote...

Unschuld! Been a while.

The one thing that keeps me still hopeful is that Mike Gamble refuses to confirm or deny the community managers statements regarding additional ending content. If there really is nothing coming and that's their official stance, what is Gamble's motivation for repeatedly refusing to answer?

That and, if IT isn't true/intended, why let it go so long and get so big? Why not kill it within the first week of two of release, like they did with all of the other attempts to explain the end? 6000 pages, over 150,000 posts, over 2.5 million views, and they've never said it's wrong. That's seriously all it would take! Just say "IT is wrong, ending are literal".

Why let IT become so big for so long, never to do anything with it? If they'd shot down IT right away, we'd all be disappointed by the ending, but in a kind of, "oh well" sense. If they don't do anything with IT now that it's like this, people will be a lot more unhappy, because they would have wasted our time.

IT doesn't need post-end content to be true, but it does need post-end content to matter.

[paxxton]

EpyonX3 wrote...

Unschuld wrote...

MaximizedAction wrote...

And then you'll find out if you want to stay or leave.

Honestly don't know why I still come, other than curiosity and updates on DLC releases. I certainly don't hang around like I used to.

Same here. I came for opinions about ME 4.

My opinion is that ME4 might feature Shepard as the indoctrinated antagonist.

[spotlessvoid]

I don't even care if they "let us believe"

Mike Gamble knows that he can effectively end the expectation of additional content by simply confirming what the community managers say. These are the same community managers who said Omega wasn't true...so how do we take what they say at face value?

Edit: Epyon too? Awesome Good to see you

Modifié par spotlessvoid, 22 octobre 2012 - 06:18 .

[Cyberfrog81]

DoomsdayDevice wrote...

3. It is not explicitly said nor implied that the AI and Harbinger are separate entities.

Of course it is. The AI came first and eventually it thought that creating Harbinger was a good idea. Very explicitly said. Yes, the Leviathan could be lying, but there's at this time no way of knowing if they are, or why they would (other than for the lulz).

The claim that the AI used itself for Harbinger's mind is, again, speculation.

BleedingUranium wrote...

I believe Byne first pointed this
out, but if you're going to argue that because we know a Reaper AI
existed before the end, the kid must be real, then you'll also have to
say that because we know Anderson and TIM existed before the end, they
must be real there too.

Please. I'm not saying the kid  "must" be real. I'm saying the AI was heavily foreshadowed, and thus the case for it being real at the end has been strenghtened. Doesn't kill IT, but helps literalism.

Modifié par Cyberfrog81, 22 octobre 2012 - 06:25 .

[Ithurael]

BleedingUranium wrote...

spotlessvoid wrote...

Unschuld! Been a while.

The one thing that keeps me still hopeful is that Mike Gamble refuses to confirm or deny the community managers statements regarding additional ending content. If there really is nothing coming and that's their official stance, what is Gamble's motivation for repeatedly refusing to answer?

That and, if IT isn't true/intended, why let it go so long and get so big? Why not kill it within the first week of two of release, like they did with all of the other attempts to explain the end? 6000 pages, over 150,000 posts, over 2.5 million views, and they've never said it's wrong. That's seriously all it would take! Just say "IT is wrong, ending are literal".

Why let IT become so big for so long, never to do anything with it? If they'd shot down IT right away, we'd all be disappointed by the ending, but in a kind of, "oh well" sense. If they don't do anything with IT now that it's like this, people will be a lot more unhappy, because they would have wasted our time.

IT doesn't need post-end content to be true, but it does need post-end content to matter.

Well, one reason that Bioware is keeping this thread going is that we are discussing topics heavily tied to the story and campaign (thus fitting into the forum). Another reason is that the IT is an interpretation of the endings. Any persons interpretation is valid. IT is not neccessarily fanon as it does not re-make the endigs it just is a different way of viewing the ending.

Any writer (I suppose) loves it when their stories are interpreted multiple ways. They left the ending the way it was to encourage that discussion - not hinder it. IT is as valid as the literal interpretation (neither is wrong). However, they have become much more direct about future content.

Personally, I don't think IT needs any post ending to be true or any post-ending content to matter. It is an interpretation, why would it need any more content? That is like Ridly Scott  (Spoilers) adding remaking blade runner for the 10th time expanding on the scene after Deckard leaves the apartment to show he is a replicant (/spoilers). You don't need the extra content, the interpretation is just fine.

[estebanus]

spotlessvoid wrote...

I don't even care if they "let us believe"

Mike Gamble knows that he can effectively end the expectation of additional content by simply confirming what the community managers say. These are the same community managers who said Omega wasn't true...so how do we take what they say at face value?

Edit: Epyon too? Awesome Good to see you

My guess is that there is indeed more ending content coming, and that the community managers don't know anything about it. They're just community managers after all. It's not as if they get to know every secret about the games and additional content that's being produced by their superiors.
I remember when Priestly also vehemntly kept on telling people that there will be no prothean DLC in ME3, and what do we get right at day one? That's right, a prothean.

[BansheeOwnage]

"IT doesn't need post-end content to be true, but it does need post-end content to matter. "

This says it all. (Sorry, I can't quote for some reason.)

[BansheeOwnage]

@ Estebanus Hey, you know Chris denied multiplayer as a whole? Yeah, it's basically his job to deny stuff.

[spotlessvoid]

Ithurael


Bladerunner is a terrible example. The question of whether Deckard was a replicant is both the central theme yet not important to the immediate plot. It's also a movie.

It's also one of two possibilities. Not one of 20.

Any non literal ending to ME is incomplete and provides no catharsis to a very personalized narrative. Unlike the movies used to compare, we see things as Shepard and make decisions as opposed to being a silent observer.