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Was the Ending a Hallucination? - Indoctrination Theory Mark III!

Débuté par byne , juil. 30 2012 07:09

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#38551
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 05:32

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AdrynBliss wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

xsamplexample wrote...

Bioware, please just make an alternate ending where IT is true. Keep your artistic integrity, let us have IT. Make everyone happy. Thats what you claim to want anyways.....


The artistic integrity IS IT. Indoctrinating the PLAYER. That is art.


Doesn't that then make the message that as a gamer all our actions have been futile and pointless, that what we're doing doesn't achieve anything because we've been brainwashed? Video games are a pointless pursuit, seems to be an odd message sent by a games company.  That smacks far to much of bio trying to be really artsy and clever and not having thought it through.


NOTE: I mean NO offence with this post.

Actually I found it to be more of an anti-religious message (not spirituality btw), but Bioware would never admit this anyway.

I just did a short essay for my writing class and it was about my experience with a Christian youth group and my ... distaste for some details regarding it. When we went to a massive 'conference' for it, the founder of the event used the following ideas:

-humanity needs 'guard rails' to keep it in line (all the while merch was being sold left and right... hmm.. Reapers..)
-there is a 'war' going on, a spiritual one, and you have to be ready to fight  (hmm but what if its really a 'harvest' of the flock...)
-there's more but I'm eating and don't feel like typing, haha

Godchild isn't a very innaccurate title for the Catalyst.

#38552
CmdrShep80
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 05:33

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Hmm...Other than Miranda and maybe Kai Leng, there doesn't seem to be anyone who's actually seen the real Illusive Man.  I was watching the assault on Cerberus vid.
Plus I noticed this in one of the Illusive Man vids:
Scientist:  Here's what we recovered.  Smart enough to call for help, but it won't be talking philosophy any time soon...
TIM:  You'd be surprised Doctor.  Once we combine it with the pieces we recovered from the Citadel
Scientist:  I'm still concerned about that.  This "rogue VI" wiped out every soldier on Luna.  Combining it with Reaper tech...well...
TIM:  That's what the shackles are for.  The Enhanced Defense Intellegence will be completely under control.

Hmmm...EDI was merged with Reaper tech...The scientist later says how persuasive she really is.  Additionally, EDI herself is pleased that ""my relationship with organics has become more cooperative"  Is this due to her persuasion?  What was the Reaper tech TIM found on the Citadel that enabled a Rogue VI to become a shackled AI?  Now that it's unshackled what's the difference?

Just things to ponder

#38553
Bill Casey
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 05:35

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A shackled AI can't do certain things even if it wants to, for instance attack its creators or divulge information...
An unshackled AI can do whatever it wants...

Modifié par Bill Casey, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:39 .

#38554
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 05:40

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starlitegirlx wrote...

AdrynBliss wrote...

SwobyJ wrote...

xsamplexample wrote...

Bioware, please just make an alternate ending where IT is true. Keep your artistic integrity, let us have IT. Make everyone happy. Thats what you claim to want anyways.....


The artistic integrity IS IT. Indoctrinating the PLAYER. That is art.


Doesn't that then make the message that as a gamer all our actions have been futile and pointless, that what we're doing doesn't achieve anything because we've been brainwashed? Video games are a pointless pursuit, seems to be an odd message sent by a games company.  That smacks far to much of bio trying to be really artsy and clever and not having thought it through.


I think it more is a message that going through the motions and actions in life is not enough. You've got to think and look at what is happening and choose your reactions to all things wisely because this whole damn world is working to brainwash you. Everywhere you go, there it is. How you should look. How you should act. What you should believe regarding almost everything in life. And people just take stances without sussing out what is really happening. People take stances for all the wrong reasons. They pick a side and stick with it the way we see some of the control and synthesis players doing. Heck, even we are picking a side, but we're doing it after examining all the information given throughout the game rather than 'I like this outcome best'. We're in this thread because we've looked at all the infomation the game has given me and examined it and drawn conclusions. For me, that youtube documentary got me thinking about IT, but in replays, after seeing this possibility, I examined the genophage and curing it and the geth/quarian war and making peace and started seeing the parallels. Then I dug into the conversations with crew and saw all the information was there as well. First run I chose control. Totally indoctrinated. Didn't want to kill the geth. Felt awful because I couldn't save the quarians and make peace. But now, I choose destroy because it's the only right answer. 

Fact is that even if I want my shepard reuninted with LI and crew and even if I'm not loving the game in totality, I still love the messages it drives home and see that it's a much deeper game when you play it beyond the level of just playing it for 'fun' shooting and fights. And that's a great analogy to life and society. Most people go through blindly doing whatever they want or choose, and they don't pay attention and think about things and come to their own conclusions. Most don't have a strong sense of self. Most can't make a fully aware well informed and educated conclusion on their own. They'd rather be spoonfed something and take it as is beause it's easier than looking at things and seeing that the world will make you a lot of promises and very few of them are true, just like that starbrat. You have to know where you stand and what you believe before you even get to that moment where it all comes into the equation and you've got to make a decision. players didn't like being thrust into these unexpected decisions but that's the world we live in everyday. Very savvy to use it in a game that way. So now they have to choose just like in life but if they weren't paying attention they'll pick what looks best, just like in life, and then defend it to the death if they aren't open minded about it. But they should have been paying attention along the way because then those decisions might have been clearer and the right one, rarely the easiest one, would have stood out.

Just my 2 cents. personally, even if they never back IT, the themes and points made in the game are pretty powerful and still put the game up a few notches because it wasn't just a random shoot 'em up but actually inspired thought and curiosity and looking at how actions effect outcomes when you're trying to change or control things you shouldn't.


Mac Walters would be proud.

In fact, this is imo exactly what the 'artistic message' (integrity!) is. It's about fighting indoctrination, in all its forms. Nothing wrong with persuasion, charm, intimidation, reputation, or inspiration, but indoctrination is eternally the enemy of humanity.

I copied and pasted your post into a document to show my boyfriend once he finishes ME3 (he still needs to do Suicide Mission, LoTSB, and Arrival before that).

I chose mostly Paragon stuff and my first choice was Synthesis. My boyfriend is going down nearly identical lines (except he's romancing Miranda and... hopefully keeping her in ME3 or else she may die, heh), and he may pick Synthesis too.

Then I'll show him a lot of videos, and posts like yours, and leave it up to him.

#38555
BansheeOwnage
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 05:41

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Arashi08 wrote...

Bill Casey wrote...

Arashi08 wrote...

In unrelated news DA3 will once again feature an exclusively humn protagonist...opinion lowers...

I blame the high percentage of humans in the fanbase...

Curse those humans!  They act like they are the only sentient species on the planet or something...

EDIT...in retrospect, my joke sucks...damn you Asperger's Syndrome!!! Posted Image

It's ok! Posted Image

#38556
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 05:44

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CmdrShep80 wrote...

Hmm...Other than Miranda and maybe Kai Leng, there doesn't seem to be anyone who's actually seen the real Illusive Man.  I was watching the assault on Cerberus vid.
Plus I noticed this in one of the Illusive Man vids:
Scientist:  Here's what we recovered.  Smart enough to call for help, but it won't be talking philosophy any time soon...
TIM:  You'd be surprised Doctor.  Once we combine it with the pieces we recovered from the Citadel
Scientist:  I'm still concerned about that.  This "rogue VI" wiped out every soldier on Luna.  Combining it with Reaper tech...well...
TIM:  That's what the shackles are for.  The Enhanced Defense Intellegence will be completely under control.

Hmmm...EDI was merged with Reaper tech...The scientist later says how persuasive she really is.  Additionally, EDI herself is pleased that ""my relationship with organics has become more cooperative"  Is this due to her persuasion?  What was the Reaper tech TIM found on the Citadel that enabled a Rogue VI to become a shackled AI?  Now that it's unshackled what's the difference?

Just things to ponder


The difference is Shepard and Joker. The narrative is fairly explicit with this.

However, I wouldn't be beyond an idea that there are hidden programs within her that could be more... sinister.

But 'EDI' herself? I think she's fully an ally.

Just as how there are possibly some small hints to show several other ME3 henchmen to be... worthy of some suspicion, but imo that doesn't mean they're your ENEMIES.

We just may be up for a further reveal, maybe, possibly, is all.

#38557
excelon
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 05:44

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Hi everyone, I'm new to this whole thread. I heard about the Indoctrination Theory through comments on Youtube Mass Effect Videos saying "Does this prove IT?". I didn't know what IT was and found a documentary on it, I watched became completely convinced that this is what Bioware meant to do. It all fits together so well, and it's an excellent way for them to make a comeback. Whoever was the person who came up with it I give you insane props!! I don't see why Bioware didn't just use this in place of the Extended cut. It makes no sense to me. Anyways just thought I'd say hi I guess.

#38558
Guest_SwobyJ_*
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 05:47

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excelon wrote...

Hi everyone, I'm new to this whole thread. I heard about the Indoctrination Theory through comments on Youtube Mass Effect Videos saying "Does this prove IT?". I didn't know what IT was and found a documentary on it, I watched became completely convinced that this is what Bioware meant to do. It all fits together so well, and it's an excellent way for them to make a comeback. Whoever was the person who came up with it I give you insane props!! I don't see why Bioware didn't just use this in place of the Extended cut. It makes no sense to me. Anyways just thought I'd say hi I guess.


Hi!

There's more out there and in many of our opinions, EC in fact only added to IT, in some big ways.

#38559
CmdrShep80
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 05:54

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Later in the same assault on cerberus, Kai Leng is seen giving TIM the Prothean VI.

TIM:  The Prothean VI should enable us to determine the nature of the Catalyst.  Combined with the breakthrough at Sanctuary we have everything we need.  We just need to tie up a few loose ends.

(Later in same vid after Kai believes TIM's talking about Shepard)

TIM:  For now, Sanctuary gave us proof of concept for controlling the Reapers

Leng:  And made it a target...

TIM:  Get the data from Sanctuary

(THE VERY NEXT SCENE)

Garrus (in the vid I saw):  Looks like the human proto-Reaper we killed

Shepard:  What's left of it.  I'm surprised Cerberus recovered that much from the base

(Several lines later)

EDI:  Cerberus is actively using the surviving pieces.  The central core-analogous to the heart-is largely intact.  Cerberus is using it for a power source

(EVEN LATER during another TIM VID)

First vid involves talking about Grayson and some physical enhancements but Grayson was done in by his Red Sands addiction.  He lost his ability to manage his mental capacities

Parts of second vid: 

Scientist:  Some of our forces are already hearing voices

TIM:  When our work at Sanctuary pays off, the only voice they'll be hearing is ours

The 3rd video shows the scientist Jana who also sees TIM in person.  He begins a procedure.  What procedure did he perform?  What procedure did he do that didn't need anasthetics?  What procedure did he have to do that allowed him to gain the nature of the catalyst without being on the citadel itself (during the time of the vids)

THe very next scene is the walk to TIMs office without TIM.  So where did he go?

This is me trying to find some supportive evidence to demonstrate that TIM could have possibly downloaded his consciousness and merged it with a Reaper body of some kind, built by Cerberus but powered by the Reaper core from ME 2

Modifié par CmdrShep80, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:56 .

#38560
BansheeOwnage
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 05:55

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excelon wrote...

Hi everyone, I'm new to this whole thread. I heard about the Indoctrination Theory through comments on Youtube Mass Effect Videos saying "Does this prove IT?". I didn't know what IT was and found a documentary on it, I watched became completely convinced that this is what Bioware meant to do. It all fits together so well, and it's an excellent way for them to make a comeback. Whoever was the person who came up with it I give you insane props!! I don't see why Bioware didn't just use this in place of the Extended cut. It makes no sense to me. Anyways just thought I'd say hi I guess.

Welcome! Actually, one of the cool things about this is not one single person thought of it. Many did, and many more improved upon it over time. (Like the crucible, I guess.)

The short answer to why they didn't do it in the Extended Cut is because it would have taken too long at the time.

There is a plethora of information on these threads. Enjoy!

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 23 octobre 2012 - 05:55 .

#38561
BansheeOwnage
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 05:57

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CmdrShep80 wrote...

Later in the same assault on cerberus, Kai Leng is seen giving TIM the Prothean VI.

TIM:  The Prothean VI should enable us to determine the nature of the Catalyst.  Combined with the breakthrough at Sanctuary we have everything we need.  We just need to tie up a few loose ends.

(Later in same vid after Kai believes TIM's talking about Shepard)

TIM:  For now, Sanctuary gave us proof of concept for controlling the Reapers

Leng:  And made it a target...

TIM:  Get the data from Sanctuary

(THE VERY NEXT SCENE)

Garrus (in the vid I saw):  Looks like the human proto-Reaper we killed

Shepard:  What's left of it.  I'm surprised Cerberus recovered that much from the base

(Several lines later)

EDI:  Cerberus is actively using the surviving pieces.  The central core-analogous to the heart-is largely intact.  Cerberus is using it for a power source

(EVEN LATER during another TIM VID)

First vid involves talking about Grayson and some physical enhancements but Grayson was done in by his Red Sands addiction.  He lost his ability to manage his mental capacities

Parts of second vid: 

Scientist:  Some of our forces are already hearing voices

TIM:  When our work at Sanctuary pays off, the only voice they'll be hearing is ours

The 3rd video shows the scientist Jana who also sees TIM in person.  He begins a procedure.  What procedure did he perform?  What procedure did he do that didn't need anasthetics?  What procedure did he have to do that allowed him to gain the nature of the catalyst without being on the citadel itself (during the time of the vids)

THe very next scene is the walk to TIMs office without TIM.  So where did he go?

This is me trying to find some supportive evidence to demonstrate that TIM could have possibly downloaded his consciousness and merged it with a Reaper body of some kind, built by Cerberus but powered by the Reaper core from ME 2

No offense, but please don't continue that. You make us look bad to new people.

#38562
CmdrShep80
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 05:58

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

excelon wrote...

Hi everyone, I'm new to this whole thread. I heard about the Indoctrination Theory through comments on Youtube Mass Effect Videos saying "Does this prove IT?". I didn't know what IT was and found a documentary on it, I watched became completely convinced that this is what Bioware meant to do. It all fits together so well, and it's an excellent way for them to make a comeback. Whoever was the person who came up with it I give you insane props!! I don't see why Bioware didn't just use this in place of the Extended cut. It makes no sense to me. Anyways just thought I'd say hi I guess.

Welcome! Actually, one of the cool things about this is not one single person thought of it. Many did, and many more improved upon it over time. (Like the crucible, I guess.)

The short answer to why they didn't do it in the Extended Cut is because it would have taken too long at the time.

There is a plethora of information on these threads. Enjoy!


A double welcome!  Like my sig says, this is my favorite forum on the Citadel Posted Image.  But then like Bioware does, you might see me posting elsewhere with that same sig causing every forum to be my favorite hehe Posted Image.  but no really this one has been the best forum I've been in on BSN.  Just wait till we hit the Mark 4 thread.

#38563
CmdrShep80
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 06:00

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

No offense, but please don't continue that. You make us look bad to new people.


None taken.  I just wanted to consider his idea.  I think it's worth at least exploring the concept a bit.  If it comes to nothing, then well, there just won't be much to find like synthesis, control, or literal interpretations and we'll just say it's not possible

#38564
CmdrShep80
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 06:08

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Ok have to add. If TIM is not real during the ending sequence and he's not on the Cerberus base nor is he on the Citadel the. Where is he?

#38565
Raistlin Majare 1992
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 06:11

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CmdrShep80 wrote...

Ok have to add. If TIM is not real during the ending sequence and he's not on the Cerberus base nor is he on the Citadel the. Where is he?


He might very well still be on the Citadel, just doing something entirely different than what we thought.

After all we still have the unsolved mystery of how the Reapers took the Citadel so fast that the Citadel defense force did not have time to close the arms and Cerberus demonstrated the ability to infiltrate the Citadel before.

#38566
smokingotter1
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 06:16

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paxxton wrote...

NebuchadnezzaRT wrote...

paxxton wrote...

dreamgazer wrote...

The Derelict Man deserves a better ending.

Seriously, is anything considered a constant variable in this thread?

A constant variable? I don't think so.

Do you still like the Control ending? ;)

Yup. I like Control. I like Synthesis. And I like Destroy too. And Refuse as well. Posted Image
What I was refering to is that "constant variable" is an oxymoron. Posted Image


Everytime I see control:
Posted Image

#38567
plfranke
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 06:18

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Later in the same assault on cerberus, Kai Leng is seen giving TIM the Prothean VI.

TIM:  The Prothean VI should enable us to determine the nature of the Catalyst.  Combined with the breakthrough at Sanctuary we have everything we need.  We just need to tie up a few loose ends.

(Later in same vid after Kai believes TIM's talking about Shepard)

TIM:  For now, Sanctuary gave us proof of concept for controlling the Reapers

Leng:  And made it a target...

TIM:  Get the data from Sanctuary

(THE VERY NEXT SCENE)

Garrus (in the vid I saw):  Looks like the human proto-Reaper we killed

Shepard:  What's left of it.  I'm surprised Cerberus recovered that much from the base

(Several lines later)

EDI:  Cerberus is actively using the surviving pieces.  The central core-analogous to the heart-is largely intact.  Cerberus is using it for a power source

(EVEN LATER during another TIM VID)

First vid involves talking about Grayson and some physical enhancements but Grayson was done in by his Red Sands addiction.  He lost his ability to manage his mental capacities

Parts of second vid: 

Scientist:  Some of our forces are already hearing voices

TIM:  When our work at Sanctuary pays off, the only voice they'll be hearing is ours

The 3rd video shows the scientist Jana who also sees TIM in person.  He begins a procedure.  What procedure did he perform?  What procedure did he do that didn't need anasthetics?  What procedure did he have to do that allowed him to gain the nature of the catalyst without being on the citadel itself (during the time of the vids)

THe very next scene is the walk to TIMs office without TIM.  So where did he go?

This is me trying to find some supportive evidence to demonstrate that TIM could have possibly downloaded his consciousness and merged it with a Reaper body of some kind, built by Cerberus but powered by the Reaper core from ME 2

No offense, but please don't continue that. You make us look bad to new people.

I don't even think those were the real quotes lol

#38568
BansheeOwnage
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 06:19

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Raistlin Majare 1992 wrote...

CmdrShep80 wrote...

Ok have to add. If TIM is not real during the ending sequence and he's not on the Cerberus base nor is he on the Citadel the. Where is he?


He might very well still be on the Citadel, just doing something entirely different than what we thought.

After all we still have the unsolved mystery of how the Reapers took the Citadel so fast that the Citadel defense force did not have time to close the arms and Cerberus demonstrated the ability to infiltrate the Citadel before.

Yeah. I also want to know how the citadel got there. Oh, and it's impossible that the reapers didn't know about the crucible.

#38569
BansheeOwnage
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 06:20

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plfranke wrote...
I don't even think those were the real quotes lol

They look right.

#38570
plfranke
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 06:21

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CmdrShep80 wrote...

BansheeOwnage wrote...

No offense, but please don't continue that. You make us look bad to new people.


None taken.  I just wanted to consider his idea.  I think it's worth at least exploring the concept a bit.  If it comes to nothing, then well, there just won't be much to find like synthesis, control, or literal interpretations and we'll just say it's not possible

But the problem is he has no basis for his claims at all. It would be like me saying "The Crucible will turn all synthetics into bunnies. Discuss!" It's just pointless, no evidence, no foreshadowing and no payoff if it turned out to be true. People shouldn't need to be handheld in this thread on things like this. Illusive Man is not a derelict Reaper. Just stop.

#38571
plfranke
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 06:22

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

plfranke wrote...
I don't even think those were the real quotes lol

They look right.

never seen that first one with TIM before. It's amazing how different he is pre and post beam.

#38572
spotlessvoid
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 06:29

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Bill Casey wrote...

A shackled AI can't do certain things even if it wants to, for instance attack its creators or divulge information...
An unshackled AI can do whatever it wants...


Behold my vast cosmic power as I crush this pathetic apex species. Might Harbinger! You are my first creation! Now let us single handedly build my greatest creation, The Mass Relays. Let the first harvest begin!


Later on....
Oh no, somebody turned off the citadel signal. Sovereign! Sssoooverrrreignnnnn! Dammit! Harbinger! Harr-oh. Where have you ben? That ****ing organic is really pissing me off.

#38573
Wowky
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 06:35

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While I think the IT has plenty of convincing points and is very cleverly put together, my biggest question is: why would Bioware wait this long to do anything about it? I mean when we were still only a few weeks after launch of the game, I could see it being a cool "long game" tactic, but we're coming up on nearly 8 months since ME3 came out. As much as I love the theory, so much time has passed that I don't know this is what they had in mind, and if they did, they are risking people just not caring by a certain point (I love ME3 and will buy all the DLC though, but I imagine others will probably get over it and if they have a "big reveal" the impact will be lost)

#38574
BansheeOwnage
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 06:41

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Wowky wrote...

While I think the IT has plenty of convincing points and is very cleverly put together, my biggest question is: why would Bioware wait this long to do anything about it? I mean when we were still only a few weeks after launch of the game, I could see it being a cool "long game" tactic, but we're coming up on nearly 8 months since ME3 came out. As much as I love the theory, so much time has passed that I don't know this is what they had in mind, and if they did, they are risking people just not caring by a certain point (I love ME3 and will buy all the DLC though, but I imagine others will probably get over it and if they have a "big reveal" the impact will be lost)

Any number of things.

1. They need time to make a "reveal".
2. They will wait until the other DLCs are out (I would).
3. They intended it, but won't reveal it.
4. They definitely did not have it done at launch.
Who knows. We're not Bioware. Posted Image

Modifié par BansheeOwnage, 23 octobre 2012 - 06:42 .

#38575
smokingotter1
Posté 23 octobre 2012 - 06:45

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BansheeOwnage wrote...

Wowky wrote...

While I think the IT has plenty of convincing points and is very cleverly put together, my biggest question is: why would Bioware wait this long to do anything about it? I mean when we were still only a few weeks after launch of the game, I could see it being a cool "long game" tactic, but we're coming up on nearly 8 months since ME3 came out. As much as I love the theory, so much time has passed that I don't know this is what they had in mind, and if they did, they are risking people just not caring by a certain point (I love ME3 and will buy all the DLC though, but I imagine others will probably get over it and if they have a "big reveal" the impact will be lost)

Any number of things.

1. They need time to make a "reveal".
2. They will wait until the other DLCs are out (I would).
3. They intended it, but won't reveal it.
4. They definitely did not have it done at launch.
Who knows. We're not Bioware. Posted Image


Think of it this way, if BW did give fans the ending they all desire would I care about DLC and MP? Can't speak for you all but I probably would have moved on. It's a hook that keeps fans biting, also a bit of a risk.
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