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[demersel]

Jusseb wrote...

We're all still making assumptions about Cronos Station. But is it actually stated that it is destroyed?

All we see is the final cut scene with the Prothean VI about de Citadel moving to Earth. After that we never hear anything about Cronos Station anymore, nor that it is destroyed OR salvaged.

Actually, how do they get out? They get in by jumping down a shaft, while the station is being destroyed and falls apart around them - then they discover the Human reaper - and there is no way back - only forward to TIM's office. But then when shepard interrupts vendetta where do they actually go? Back to the human reaper? And then what? how do they get out? While the station is being destroyed. 

Forget about TIM being or not being a reaper - it isn't really important, and doesn't change anything either way. 
The cronos mission is odd regardless of that. Those are legitimate questions. Actually things stop making sense completely right after you kill Kai Leng - Vendetta tells you that the catalyst is citadel, that citadel is moved to earth - and Shepard doesn't even contact Hackett at that moment to relay the news, or to ask for confimation! Then it just fades to black. 

Modifié par demersel, 23 octobre 2012 - 02:52 .

[Leonia]

Do you always see how Shepard and Co. leave a level?

[demersel]

leonia42 wrote...

Do you always see how Shepard and Co. leave a level?

Yes, sometimes you actually do. Especially if you're in the place of hazard - that is being destroyed - like geth dreadnaught. Or a rachni cave - even thow that mission is beyond odd, as they just turn around and leave for no reason, they actually show you how you leave. 
Even the N7 missions - you get a pick up. 

Or at least the show how you call for a shuttle. 

Modifié par demersel, 23 octobre 2012 - 02:58 .

[Leonia]

Right, but not always. So you can't assume just because you didn't see it that it didn't happen. There's lots of cases of this in ME2 where you don't go back to the shuttle after a mission.

[demersel]

But if there was one case when they should have adressed that - it is this one.

[paxxton]

demersel wrote...

leonia42 wrote...

Do you always see how Shepard and Co. leave a level?

Yes, sometimes you actually do. Especially if you're in the place of hazard - that is being destroyed - like geth dreadnaught. Or a rachni cave - even thow that mission is beyond odd, as they just turn around and leave for no reason, they actually show you how you leave. 
Even the N7 missions - you get a pick up. 

Or at least the show how you call for a shuttle. 

And they leave with no background music, and not even in a hurry, despite the bombardment from Hackett.

[paxxton]

Strangely, the whole Galaxy, besides the Local Cluster, is occupied by the Reapers after Cronos, even though there was still much to be conquered before the mission.

[Restrider]

BansheeOwnage wrote...

Humakt83 wrote...

I remember gathering quotes regarding nightmares from the game files a while back. I think I posted it here so the original list could be from me.

Ah, yes, it is from you. I have a doc of cool stuff people have said, and their names are below them.

Edit:  Stop posting Banshee.

Lol, am I on the list, if I may ask ?

[demersel]

"An end for once and for all" track, that plays in control and synthesys ending is out of key.

[spotlessvoid]

@starlitegirl

Lie. Lie big. And say it with conviction. Cognitive dissonance is one of the most powerful weapons ever thought up. This is essentially what starchild does. Reduce them to a primal state of fear and then play off their desires. It's getting more Orwellian by the day. What's it called? The totalitarian tiptoe. Still, the acceleration is disconcerting.

[spotlessvoid]

wow. I was responding to your sheeple post, and that starchild operates on the same principle as politicians. Lie blatantly, no remorse, no flinching. People get so confused by being presented contradictory "truths" from the same source that most give up trying to understand and abrogate their thoughts to those in positions of authority.

Far as buddha, what do you think my handle refers to?

[Restrider]

Restrider wrote...

As I already mentioned earlier, I wanted to create some kind of IT FAQ. Since I do not really know what the frequently asked questions might be,I skipped that idea and tried to make a list of the ten most important concepts of IT. As you can see I highlighted the general concept and backed it up with additional information. I will try to include links toimportant posts further backing up the concepts (please post it/pm me if you have links to share). I am still not sure what the last two concepts could be to add to the in-game list. Please post your opinions.
Here is the post with all the polls!

----------The Ten Most Important Concepts Supporting The Indoctrination Theory----------

     
        I) Indoctrination in general :

          1.   Regarding IT, Shepard is in the process of indoctrination and the outcome is decided by the final decision taken.
          2.   The concept of indoctrination is a crucial part throughout the trilogy and nothing new to the player (link 1 and 2).
          3.   Rana Thanoptis is an example of how subtle and slow indoctrination can be.
          4.   Shepard knocked out for two days by a Reaper artifact that indoctrinated an entire facility.
          5.   Logs on the derelict Reaper illustrate the reactions of victims of indoctrination.
          6.   Paul Grayson's indoctrination show its effects on someone's mind.
          7.   Harbinger's smacktalk (link 1 and 2).

 
       II) The Breath Scene :

          1.   London rubble.
          2.   Mako in the background.
          3.   Citadel explosion (link 1 and 2).


      III) The Dreams :
         
          1.   Dream sequences and post-beam sequence share the same game mechanics.
          2.   Reality-nonreality transition after beam shot (post-beam, dreams, Geth Consensus).
          3.   Oily shadows and whispering.
          4.   Nightmares are mentioned in the Arrival by subjects being indoctrinated.
          5.   Chambers and Asari having PTSD as comparison between PTSD & Shepard's dreams.


    IV) Leviathan :

          1.   Harbinger/the Reapers perfected enthrallment to indoctrination.
          2.   Enthrallment uses memories of its victim.
          3.   Similarities between Leviathan end and decision chamber.
          4.   Zap sound as a sign to enter/leave virtual reality (link 1 and 2).
          5.   Note the file name of the sixth murder that can be found in Bryson's lab.


     V) The Choices :

          1.   Shepard on his knees happened only during/after some mind control.
          2.   The Guardian is aligned to the Reapers.
          3.   Control and Synthesis being supported by indoctrinated characters.
          4.   A swap in the colours (TIM = Paragon; Anderson = Renegade).
          5.   Huskification during Control/Synthesis vs. Shepard gaining strength while shooting the tubes.
          6.   Guardian losing it when you refuse ("SO BE IT!").
          7.   Decision chamber looks like a dialogue wheel from an aerial view.
          8.   Decision chamber resembling beam scenery (link 1 and 2).
          9.   Ambiguous end dialogue (Control/Synthesis).
        10.   Slide shows in Control/Synthesis/Destroy illustrate future possibilities, not facts that already happened.
        11.   Soldiers in Destroy fighting fiercely while in Control/Synthesis they are losing (note: no cheering in Synthesis).


    VI) The Kid :

         1.   Moves from one roof to another during an invasion (all links).
         2.   It can open a door that is marked as locked.
         3.   It survives a blast from a Reaper laser.
         4.   It is not seen by anyone else.
         5.   There always are warning symbols around it.
         6.   It disappears without making any noise.
         7.   It does not behave like a normal kid ("You cannot save me!").
         8.   The Guardian has the same form as the kid.


   VII) Anderson & TIM :

         1.   How did Anderson follow Shepard?
         2.   How can Anderson reach the control first?
         3.   Why did no one else follow Anderson?
         4.   From where did TIM shows up?
         5.   TIM's scars are only present at the end of the game.
         6.   Anderson may be addressing Shepard ("They are controlling you!").
         7.   Shepard is dominated by TIM and thus through him by the Reapers.
         8.   Anderson and Shepard have wounds at the same place (link 1 and 2).
         9.   Reaper horn played in the background (at 1/2 speed).


  VIII) The Guardian :

         1.   It has the same shape as the kid ( thus an extraction of Shepard's memories).
         2.   It speaks with femshep's and maleshep's voice.
         3.   Harbinger's line in the MP trailer (link 1 and 2).



List of in-game reasons:

 1) The Citadel :
   - resembling events of the past
   - Coats dead on the Citadel
   - illumination without a specific source

 2) The Beam Run :
   - Harbinger pin-pointing everyone and everything but Shepard
   - Harbinger not destroying the Normandy
   - Shepard surviving the blast that one-shots Makos and Gunships
   - Harbinger leaving

[paxxton]

spotlessvoid wrote...

*snip*

Far as buddha, what do you think my handle refers to?

Pure essence of unbound existence.

Modifié par paxxton, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:09 .

[Jusseb]

demersel wrote...

"An end for once and for all" track, that plays in control and synthesys ending is out of key.

The title fits perfectly, because if we are right, then Synthesis and Control is actually "An end once and for all".

You've just been brainwashed, huskified or liquefied.

Modifié par Jusseb, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:09 .

[paxxton]

Jusseb wrote...

demersel wrote...

"An end for once and for all" track, that plays in control and synthesys ending is out of key.

The title fits perfectly, because if we are right, then Synthesis and Control is actually "An end once and for all".

You've just been brainwashed, huskified or liquefied.

What about the track playing in Destroy? Does it refer to the end of the Reapers/Indoctrination Attempt?

[Dwailing]

paxxton wrote...

Strangely, the whole Galaxy, besides the Local Cluster, is occupied by the Reapers after Cronos, even though there was still much to be conquered before the mission.

Wait, why would they not show the Local Cluster as being occupied by Reapers?  I mean, it wouldn't have any effect on things for them to do it.  Maybe it symbolizes how Shepard's mind is almost completely taken and there's only one small glimmer of hope?

[demersel]

paxxton wrote...

What about the track playing in Destroy? Does it refer to the end of the Reapers/Indoctrination Attempt?

In destroy the track is normal. Not out of key.

[Eryri]

starlitegirlx wrote...

-snip-

Just my 2 cents though. I think changing the gaming at the end would be too dramatic and actually go against a perfect IT ending. leaving it as is but just changing the dialogue doesn't change that it was IT. It was an indoctrination process and that place existed within the citadel. But once there, it was an indoctrination process using the child to manipulate shepard and anderson and even Tim. All of that might have happened in shepard's mind with harbinger digging into his/her mind and being those voices but this time shepard is talking back. We already have seen this happen with Leviathan.

Come to think of it, the whole scene with leviathan sets up the citadel final scene perfectly as an indoctrination process. Seeing people that aren't there. Speaking with them. Infomation is given. Questions are asked and answered. It parallels the citadel exactly except we knew those people weren't there and that it was some form of indoctrination and that leviathan was aiming to dominate shepard. Frankly, with that realization, having just had it (didn't think much about it before), it's the perfect way to view what is happening at the citadel. Only at the citadel, it's not a creature you've found that is being far more honest with you. It's an attempt to keep you from choosing destroy by indoctrinating you right then. Same thing with the only difference being a hidden agenda and it is hidden within the figure of a boy that is haunting her. That boy could very well have been real. Likely it was. We know kids played in the ducts based on Mouse in ME2. He could have gotten to that roof from the ducts then into the ducts to where she was during the attact then out of the ducts to the shuttle. But during indoctrination that boy who brings up guilt and remorse is now a tool being used by harbinger.

It all works perfectly. Destroy is actually destroy. The crucible did it's job. But there were never really any synthesis or control options. They were illusions created by harbinger to keep shepard from activating the crucible.

I agree that more dialogue options would be a huge improvement, but regarding your point in bold, that depends on where the hallucination starts, and where Shepard actually is. You seem to be leaning towards the "waking nightmare" interpretation in which Shepard really is on the Citadel, but the Catalyst is subtly altering his / her perceptions.

I lean more to the total hallucination version, where in Shepard is still on Earth after being knocked out by Harbinger. I prefer this one because it neatly fills in more plot holes. Particularly:

"Why does Harbinger fly off when Shepard is down but not dead?,

"Why does the transport beam happen to lead almost straight to the citadel arm controls?",

"How does the Crucible perform all these radically different functions despite being built by people who didn't really understand it?"

"How does Shepard survive to take a breath after being engulfed in that huge explosion?" among others.

The only problem with my preferred version is it means that the Crucible never even docks with the citadel at all and the Reapers are still alive and kicking. Hence the need for DLC to resolve it to finish the story.

Modifié par Eryri, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:24 .

[paxxton]

Dwailing wrote...

paxxton wrote...

Strangely, the whole Galaxy, besides the Local Cluster, is occupied by the Reapers after Cronos, even though there was still much to be conquered before the mission.

Wait, why would they not show the Local Cluster as being occupied by Reapers?  I mean, it wouldn't have any effect on things for them to do it.  Maybe it symbolizes how Shepard's mind is almost completely taken and there's only one small glimmer of hope?

I'd rather see it as a message saying "Hey, that's the only way! And it's high time." It's meant to lure Shepard to the beam.

[paxxton]

demersel wrote...

paxxton wrote...

What about the track playing in Destroy? Does it refer to the end of the Reapers/Indoctrination Attempt?

In destroy the track is normal. Not out of key.

It fits all the endings. It accompanies change. Nothing will be the same again. The old world is gone.

Modifié par paxxton, 23 octobre 2012 - 04:28 .